'This is why the greediest, most ambitious, and most aggressive and ruthless scammers go into that LGAT seminar business, as if they play their cards right, they can make a fortune and fast. Of course most of them don't get rich quick, as its not as easy as they say it is, and is very competitive. That is why only the most aggressive and clever rise to the top.'

With the emphasis on 'most aggressive.'

I've been watching quite a few vids and listening to sales presentations over the past few days, including Dave's presentation at T Harvey Eckers seminar, posted on his Bold Approach site

Ecker seminar


and it has become clear that this is an exceedingly aggressive sales process, not much 'persuasion' involved at all. Ecker's seminar audience are in a state of mania before Dave can even get a word out and even he, with his imposing presence and professional skills, has trouble getting them to state where they are able to produce even a simularcrum of attention.

Dave does some cosy chat type video interviews that seem innocuous and informative but he also becomes very, very directive (something that military and law enforcement types excel at, giving orders) when he wants a particular response, as in his audio clip to get email sign-ups on his squeeze page.

squeeze page

I watched some Byron Katie clips also and came to the conclusion that she is even more aggressive than anyone else, simply because her approach is so consistently confusing and insidious and because such aggressive selling is so unexpected from a white-haired granny. Dave seems to flip in and out of the various persona's he's crafted for sales purposes, Byron Katie's performance is seamless and relentless.

Christa mentioned something about those who have had personal experience of a cult situation tending to repeat that experience with another cult situation if a full recovery process is not followed. She also mentioned that some of those untreated survivors will go on to visit upon others what was originally visited on them in the cult.
Its well worth thinking about.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2010 11:22PM by Stoic.

The Anticult says:

"But once you find a few rats in their Stories, you know that when there are rats in open view, they are hundreds that can't be seen yet.

And once a few rats are spotted, rest assured they are going to be up all night scrubbing the other rats off the internet."

Just noticed:

The company "Palm Tree Promotions" all of sudden does link to somewhere - but with a different name!

How interesting.

So now it actually links somewhere, BUT.... why doesn't the logo match what's currently on their website?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2010 12:02AM by helpme2times.

Its a very good point about these types of persuasion salespeople becoming very directive, forceful, and giving direct orders to people. They know that that works. It works on some people just to order them, to DIRECT them to do something. Large amounts of people respond submissively to that, and will literally do as they are told.
Persuaders know that, and know often there is no need for fancy techniques, and to just give forceful direction.

In hypnosis, that is called being DIRECTIVE. There are forms of "hypnosis" that are literally based around directly telling someone to..."sit down and go into a trance". That comes right from Richard Bandler, and Dave Lakhani knows that very well, even though he has tried to deny it right in this thread.


At the same time, they do more nondirective processes as well, that are indirect and vague. As some people resist the direct approach. So they use the different methods all at once, to catch different audiences. They cast a wide net.

Byron Katie is much more advanced and polished, as she's been doing it fulltime for 30+ years. (she started well before 1986 of course)

Dave Lakhani says in his books, that those who are "persuaders" think different than normal people. That is true. When you get to know some of these persuaders, they are instrumentalists, and look at people like pawns in a chess game to make money. The sociopath next door, is a good analogy.

Those who do come out of cults, and do not work on it enough, can easily jump to the other side, and employ many of the same techniques themselves on others, as has been seen in these threads many times. Of course, they always self-rationalize.

That has been seen with the Siddha Yoga cult, where many came out of leadership in Siddha, and jumped straight into Byron Katie, and other groups.
Byron Katie (the Work) and Siddha Yoga connection? [forum.culteducation.com]

Another example of cult members switching gurus is when followers of Frederick Lenz were courted by Adi Da after Lenz committed suicide (with his girlfriend and his dog):

[www.adidaarchives.org]

I wouldn't be surprised if some of James Arthur Ray's followers leave Ray's camp and become followers of another guru, or even if various gurus target them specifically.

Dave Lakhani has a book called Subliminal Persuasion, with a website www.subliminalpersuasionbook.com

That website again, is full of persuasion tactics, many of them covert. Be extremely skeptical and analytical about every word, sentence, and claim being made.

In the book Subliminal Persuasion, Chapter 10 is called: Creating A Cult Following.

In that chapter, he deliberates puts in misleading info, equating a cult, with marketing of Harley Davidson and Jimmy Buffet Parrotheads, and making a mishmash of cults and branding. This idea of "cult marketing" is just copied from others, and there is quite a bit of disturbing writing in that chapter.
Its frankly disgusting how Lakhani made comments in this thread about people not knowing the difference between marketing and cults, when in fact the opposite is true. It's clear that Lakhani is the one who doesn't know the difference, and/or is deliberately creating confusion for his own purposes.

In the book, he says there is a link on his website called JOIN MY CULT.
He then uses truly manipulative methods to imply this is an "insiders" group that will "frighten" some people, but its the ONLY way to learn the POWERFUL techniques he teaches...but he says don't worry you are PERFECTLY SAFE, but you will be SHOCKED by his information.

You can see how perverse all of that is, a vulgar attempt at manipulation, that if tried in person could perhaps result in a glass of ice-water being poured over the manipulators head, to disrupt the process. The serious thing is many people will not see those tactics, and will fall for it, and get lured into this Lakhani "insiders group" which is a type of LGAT-like cultish group around a so-called covert persuasion teacher. That is what is being attempted.

Its an embedded command...JOIN MY CULT, guised with sarcasm, but then he manipulates the reader into thinking its a special insiders group with secret knowledge. He also uses his standard attempts at using FEAR and SHOCK.
He then closes with his other technique of saying you are "perfectly safe", which is the same drum he beats when he says you can trust his unverified claims.
You are NOT perfectly safe.
In fact, its the opposite, and there are very strong WARNINGS about the methods and tactics being used. The amount of outright BS found so far stinks to high heaven.

One can see even at the bottom of that website www.subliminalpersuasionbook.com he uses a very simple advanced technique...closing with..."Your friend"
Most people don't realize that the most advanced influence technique is to make your customers believe you are their BEST FRIEND. That is a fact. That is what is taught, and that is what he tries to do, also to try and make people "trust" him, while at the same time using FEAR tactics.

There are also direct commands on that website. Look at the top, it says...
ORDER THE BOOK!

And the word ORDER is in red and in bold, and its a command, an order. Dave Lakhani is ORDERING you to ORDER the book. That is a layered embedded and direct command.

No time right now to analyze the rest of that website and the book, but that will follow.

to the trained eye, there are about 100 red flags all screaming at once about the manipulation techniques being used by Dave Lakhani.
You are not "perfectly safe", far from it, quite the contrary.

Irony can be a powerful persuasive technique used by professional persuaders. By saying "Join my cult" Lakhani is exaggerating for effect. It's hard to directly criticize such exaggeration because he isn't actually starting a cult (and no cult says "join my cult"), yet simultaneously he is using manipulative sales tactics.

It's like Lakhani's friend Joe Vitale's book on the business wisdom of P.T. Barnum:
[www.amazon.com]

There's a Customer Born Every Minute

Of course the original quotation from Barnum is "there's a sucker born every minute" and Barnum was a master at persuading such suckers to give him money, which is exactly what Joe Vitale does. If you believe the premise of the book itself (that P.T. Barnum was a business genius), you are a sucker. Yet it's hard to directly criticize because it's so outrageous and exaggerated.

If directly criticized, someone like this will say "well I didn't really mean that," just as Lakhani says "I'm not really starting a cult or teaching cult mind control tactics--you are confused" while meanwhile he's using disinformation and confusion in his own marketing.

It's the old "I was just joking" defense for verbal abuse.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2010 07:59AM by buffman.

' He also uses his standard attempts at using FEAR and SHOCK.
He then closes with his other technique of saying you are "perfectly safe", which is the same drum he beats when he says you can trust his unverified claims.'

Reading the above made me think of James Ray and his fascination with death, harping on about death and playing death games with his customers, saying to them 'you might think you're going to die but you're not going to die'----telling them that they were safe even as some were dying.

Its the same technique, eliciting great fear and then relieving it, putting the customer onto a rollercoaster of emotion where they will be more vulnerable to the authority figure.

Of course Ray fatally overreached, miscalculating his own abilities and his customers limits. The customers vulnerabilities and limits get no consideration at all from these 'persuaders.'

The irony is by carefully analyzing the tactics being used by Dave Lakhani, one can learn more of the persuasion tactics used in this area by many others.

The trick is to look behind the overt "persuasion content" being allegedly taught by Lakhani, and to look under the hood, at the persuasion tactics being used covertly on YOU.

It makes it tricky, as its a bit of a house of mirrors, as the overt content is covert persuasion, while the covert methods are also covert manipulative persuasion, but of a different sort.

Another complication, is the persuader saying things like...trust me, I am not doing that, these words are not a sentence, there is no mafia, there is no such thing as hypnosis, everything is hypnosis...

People like Byron Katie claim there is no such thing as covert persuasion, and that they have never heard of it, when in fact that is what they do for a living.

But guys like Dave Lakhani, claim to teach covert persuasion, meanwhile, they are only teaching overtly a small part of persuasion, while DOING other types of covert persuasion to you at the same time.

The best covert persuaders, can literally persuade you they are not using covert persuasion on you, without you being aware they did that to you. There are some very smart people in this field.

But one can learn a lot studying the smaller sharks, who make all sorts of obvious blunders and mistakes, so the hidden processes can be more easily observed.

Glad to note that Dave has posted a retraction of his recommendation of CAN. It is unfortunate that it is at the end of a lengthy string of comments and not up by the original audio button at the top of the page--where the oversight is broadcast, but it is there.

'davelakhani 1 day ago

Dave Lakhani here. In the interview I did that you listened to here, I mention the Cult Awareness Network as a resource for learning more. I've since learned that The Cult Awareness Network is owned and staffed by Scientologists. I'd strongly recommend against engaging them as a resource. It was simply an oversight on my part and I'd never intentionally recommend any organization that has connections to questionable groups. Steve Hassan has great information, a solid resource center, is a licensed mental health professional and is the author of Combatting Cult Mind Control.....'


exploring the mind



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2010 08:19PM by Stoic.

It is unfortunate indeed that Lakhani's retraction about CAN appears in the comments rather than right next to the audio. That interview can be accessed without even seeing any comments. What if people simply don't click on the comments?

Also, people would have to have the patience to read through a long, long string of comments to get to Lakhani's. His comment re CAN is the 86th one there!

Also, a commenter has pointed out to Mr. Lakhani:

In your interview, you recommend Rick Ross as a resource to fight cults. I'm wondering why you are now recommending Steve Hassan instead?

I realize that Hassan is a reputable cult resource as well. However, you recommended the Freedom of Mind site for its resources, when Ross's site is far more extensive. It's chock full of up-to-date information on the latest cults and other potentially harmfully groups and individuals. One can check out www.culteducation.com to compare it as a resource.

The subject of your interview is James Arthur Ray. Steve's website contains nothing about James Arthur Ray. Whereas Rick Ross's site (www.culteducation.com) contains a whopping 38 links to stories about James Arthur Ray. [bold emphasis mine]

It's true; there is nothing listed on Hassan's website about James Arthur Ray, and in contrast Ross has MANY articles listed for Mr. Ray already.

Here's something else that's true.... which Stoic (or someone calling themselves "Stoic"!) pointed out when he/she posted a comment on that blog:

CAN has been a Scientology front for 14 years. This oversight was originally pointed out to Dave on the Rick Ross Cult Education Forum by the posters there

Very true, it was HERE in this forum that Lakhani learned about his big error re the Cult Awareness Network, aka CAN.

One would think Mr. Lakhani would be thankful enough to acknowledge where the info came from?

Or is that yet another "oversight" on Mr. Lakhani's part?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2010 09:44PM by helpme2times.