Dave,

While I don't particularly like what I understand that you sell nor how you sell it, I appreciate that you are going to correct your error in pointing to CAN as an anti-cult resource. I think this shows character--thank you. In general, you appear to me to be somewhat different than your cohorts in the professional persuasion business in your willingness to acknowledge your mistakes and correct for them.

It sounds to me that you don't teach "cult mind control techniques"--at least how I and some others here understand what this phrase means. Good! But saying that you teach such things is then incorrect, a collapsing of a spectrum of persuasion which equates a firm handshake (conveying strength subliminally) and gaslighting (making someone think they are going crazy by illegally breaking into their house and moving their furniture and otherwise harassing someone).

You may very well have extensive firsthand and secondhand knowledge of cults, but I don't find it very helpful to see all persuasion as equivalent any more than seeing all physical force as equivalent. A light sensual touch is different than a tap on the shoulder, which is notably different from a strong blow across the back of the head with a hammer. If I intend to swat a fly I see on my friend's head and I use a hammer, my intent is good but the effect could be very bad! The methods used by cults and other coercive groups (of which I would include LGAT's run by T. Harv Ecker and others) are like the hammer--they cause harm even when used with apparently good intent. Or at least that's my strong opinion based on my experience and reading.

Even though I also posted a comment on Toastmasters, I also doubt that Toastmasters is a true competitor to your services. Unfortunately (in my values), the market for subliminal persuasion will probably continue to be larger than the market for covert compassion, but perhaps there is a shift happening here too.

In defense of those who wish to remain anonymous here, I've fought some battles on such things more publicly and learned first-hand why the anonymity of this particular forum is extremely valuable for discussing potentially difficult issues regarding highly litigious and abusive organizations that have a history of silencing all dissent.

Quote
ImthatDave
In reference to CAN, I'm going to have an addition made to the page where the interview is hosted to correct the error about CAN. As much as you'd like to make it an issue, it was simply an oversight and I'll correct it there and in the future.

Stoic, ridiculous.

Moderator, seriously? Can you demonstrate anywhere that I've suggested anyone use brainwashing techniques? Nowhere. Brainwashing and many of the other very coercive techniques employed by cults typically don't happen until someone is already a member. What I'm speaking of specifically are the techniques used to get someone to join in the first place when I talk about cult mind control techniques and persuasion being two sides of the same coin. If you want to test my knowledge of cults and cult behavior, I'm happy to debate you in public and put that recording here as well. Lipton is not the only expert to be studied or quoted when it comes to coercive group behavior though I accept that he is exceptionally well studied and written. And, it would appear that you are saying that the work Cialdini has written applies only to business and those influence principles are not the very same ones that allow people to be drawn into cults? And, you've yet to address the issue of leaving a post up suggesting people break the law if in fact you are the moderator of this forum.

Helpme2times there is a significant difference between being a corporate spokesperson and running a speaking business. A spokesperson is an employee of another company and probably has limited responsibility for profit. Toastmasters is an excellent organization and does a great job of teaching people the basics of effective public speaking, it does virtually nothing in any of its training to teach people how to build a speaking business. The National Speakers Association does have those tracks and they charge way more than I do as do many others. Are you saying that learning to be a chef gives you all the skills you need you to open a restaurant?

I'm unlikely to respond to this thread again with the exception of completing my response to Buffman if I didn't answer all his questions as mentioned in my last major post.

People will always see what they want to see the way that makes them most comfortable. If you find me to be as dangerous as you'd like to portray me then fine, ignore me, continue to rally around those who believe like you do, resist other ideas and possibilities, shut out those who would disagree, feel safe in your anonymous group. In the meantime, I'll continue to do the real work of sharing the knowledge with as many people as possible, of how not to get caught up in coercive groups. I've wasted all the time I intend to with people who apparently limit their experience to a forum where they can be anonymous rather than actually doing something to make the world a better place. There is a huge difference between being anonymous in a forum and a group like Anonymous.

Wishing you all success in whatever it is that you do.

Dave Lakhani

Buffman -

Thank you.

I typically am the first to admit I'm wrong and I admit it publicly and do my best to correct it when what I'm wrong about was something I said publicly.

I do believe that persuasion and manipulation or persuasion and cult mind control tactics are two sides of the same coin, but studying one you are by necessity at least in large part studying the other. How you (generally, not you personally) choose to apply persuasion determines if it is negative or siply a part of everyday life as we experience. I don't teach techniques that I see as being the most harmful techniques of cult mind control. I will say that I believe that most of us ARE subliminally persuaded every day if you accept the definition of subliminal as "below the threshold of conscious perception" For example, multiple exposures to the same commercial may move it out of conscious perception, you think you are ignoring it, but you are still hearing it and may ultimately be influenced by it. Understanding how your brain works helps you become more aware of how you want to process information (for example, not falling asleep to the TV) or you may want to question IF you really need or want the purchase you are about to make and ask yourself questions about why you are about to make it.

My goal remains to show people how persuasion occurs so that they can be aware of when they are being persuaded and so that they can ethically use psychological principles of persuasion appropriately to be more effective than their competition.

In terms of your analogy of the swat vs. hammer, the problem is that when Hare Krishna (for example) give people a meal in exchange for listening to a lecture, it is the gentle touch (reciprocation, a very basic tenant of (subliminal) persuasion) that leads to the hammer blow. Somewhere along the way, if someone can show people what is coming, some percentage of them will avoid the hammer blow. I do honestly believe that each year I open many people's eyes to what is coming next. Some may disagree and that's ok, it doesn't change the fact.

One of my core beliefs is that the best way to defend against anything is to fully understand it which is why I study as widely and deeply as I do. That is why military strategists study tactics of all their potential opponents and well as their allies. I appreciate that you object to me teaching marketing and calling it subliminal persuasion; it may be a semantics argument, but I believe that much marketing effectiveness IS subliminal.

The real issue is do I ever encourage people to do anything that is illegal, unethical or inappropriate, the answer is no. Nor do I accept that all persuasion is bad, on the other had I think it occurs around us everyday and to be most effective we must know how it occurs, how to spot it and how to use it when we need to.

I can't really say if you'd object to what I sell or not at first blush you may, upon deeper study you I suspect you (and others here) might not, hard to say.

In terms of the market for subliminal persuasion to continue to grow, I think it is very clear that the brain research being done around messaging right now indicates that there is a strong interest in being able to better understand how people are influenced and with that how to influence. That said, I think that the best defense is an educated defense. Many people find my books helpful in that search, some obviously see them as something else. I know what my intention is. But, any tool (or information) can be a weapon in the hands of a person who decides to wield it in that way.

Toastmasters is highly compatible with what I teach speakers, I recommend that everyone attend and pay for my employees to attend toastmasters to learn public speaking skills. Toastmasters will make any beginning speaker effective. What Toastmasters can't do is teach people how to build a speaking business any more than a cooking class can make someone prepared to open a restaurant.

I understand your concern about anonymity but it allows for disinformation and abuse of power. For example, there was post indicating that "maybe someone should put some of my copyrighted material up on a torrent site" guess what? The next day it happened. I've chosen to stand up and be visible and have been threatened legally and have taken criticism (now) from both sides of the fence but it won't keep me from continuing to do what I see as important and making an ethical living at the same time.

You seem to me to be the most reasoned person in this thread to date and I appreciate that, reasoned discussion always benefits everyone more than reactionary accusations.

If you ever want to discuss this in more detail over the phone feel free to call me and just identify yourself as buffman and I'll know who you are. We can set an alarm or something so that if I attempt to "hypnotize" you and control your mind then the alarm will jerk you back to reality every three or four minutes and you can hang up (typed with tongue planted firmly in cheek). I think you'll find that I really am committed to trying to help people not have the things happen to them that happened to me and my family and hundreds of people that I knew growing up. It is sad to see what has happened to so many of those people who haven't been able to find reconciliation, including my mother who died wondering whether or not she'd go to heaven because she'd left the group (and I'll stop there and not start a religious discussion here).

At the end of the day, there are many ways to get the same result and we may take different routes and use different words, but I do think that everyone here has the goal of keeping people from being mislead or harmed and that is useful and honorable.

And with that, this really is my last post on this topic here.

To whom it may concern:

See [www.culteducation.com]

According to Robert Cialdini, a professor at Arizona State University, the majority of the thousands of different tactics that compliance professionals use fall into six categories, and each category is based on a psychological principle that directs human behavior. These six principles are:

1. Consistency. We try to justify our earlier behavior.
2. Reciprocity. If somebody gives us something, we try to repay in kind.
3. Social Proof. We try to find out what other people think is correct.
4. Authority. We have a deep-seated sense of duty to authority figures.
5. Liking. We obey people we like.
6. Scarcity. If we come to want something, we can be made to fear that if we wait it will be gone. The opportunity to get it may pass. We want to take it now - whatever is being offered, from an object to cosmic consciousness.

These rules can be used for effective advertising and/or marketing.

Psychologist Margaret Singer points out they can also be used by "cults."

We can see how transformations occur when the six principles are skillfully put into play by cult leaders and cultic groups. For example:

1. Consistency. If you have made a commitment to the group and then break it, you can be made to feel guilty.
2. Reciprocity. If you accept the group's food and attention, you feel you should repay them.
3. Social proof. If you look around in the group, you will see people behaving in particular ways. You imitate what you see and assume that such behavior is proper, good, and expected.
4. Authority. If you tend to respect authority, and your cult leader claims superior knowledge, power, and special missions in life, you accept him as an authority.
5. Liking. If you are the object of love bombing and other tactics that surround you, make you feel wanted and loved, and make you like the people in the group, you feel you ought to obey these people.
6. Scarcity. If you are told that without the group you will miss out on living a life without stress; miss out on attaining cosmic awareness and bliss; miss out on changing the world instantly or gaining the ability to travel back in time; or miss out on whatever the group offers that is tailored to seem essential to you, you will feel you must buy in now.

See [www.culteducation.com]

What Is a Thought Reform Program?

In essence, a thought reform program is a behavioral change technology applied to cause the learning and adoption of an ideology or set of behaviors under conditions. It is distinguished from other forms of social learning by the conditions under which it is conducted and by the techniques of environmental and interpersonal manipulation employed to suppress particular behavior and to train others .

Six conditions are simultaneously present in a thought reform program:

1. Obtaining substantial control over an individual's time and thought content, typically by gaining control over major elements of the person's social and physical environment.

2. Systematically creating a sense of powerlessness in the person.

3. Manipulating a system of rewards, punishment. and experiences in such a way as to promote new learning of an ideology or belief system advocated by management.

4. Manipulating a system of rewards, punishments, and experiences in such a way as to inhibit observable behavior that reflects the values and routines of life organization the individual displayed prior to contact with the group.

5. Maintaining a closed system of logic and an authoritarian structure in the organization.

6. Maintaining a non-informed state existing in the subject.

I will say specifically that I don't support posting torrent links to copyright protected materials, but I understand that people do use torrents to engage in illegal file sharing and there is a debate over whether this should or shouldn't be illegal.

Buffman -

In my last message I inadvertently said you object to me teaching marketing and calling it subliminal persuasion, you in fact said "cult mind control tactics." So as I pointed out earlier, I think an objection is to my choice of language not what I'm teaching per se.

Well, I'm glad that Dave will no longer be directing anyone into the arms of CAN.

Dave, you really should re-read the posts re the torrent, nobody here uploaded anything to a torrent or encouraged anyone to download anything from the torrent.
A link was posted to an existing torrent in order to use the copy on the page as an example, the difference perhaps between a 'meta-model' understanding of the text and an 'artfully vague' understanding of the text.
(just learnt that from the wiki link to the Milton Model, thanks TAC)

ImthatDave:

"...an objection is to my choice of language not what I'm teaching per se"?

Maybe you should learn the distinctions made between various forms of persuasion as pointed out in the links above?

Dave,

I don't know all the content of what you are teaching so I can't say which things I object to and which I do not (I don't intend to spend $3000 to find out). However, I do object to misleading marketing copy that plays on people's greed and fear to sell things high above market-prices. I consider calling sales techniques "cult mind control tactics" dangerously misleading marketing that engineers controversy in order to sell expensive courses. I'm guessing you call this "good marketing," but that's where we clearly disagree.

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The Anticult
Look at this vile website, which reveals some of the affiliate tricks and scams they use on people, and is promoting the "Disguised Hypnosis affiliate program".

www.disguisedhypnosis.com/affiliate.html
www.disguisedhypnosis.com
How To Unleash the Power of "Disguised Hypnosis"... And Instantly Master the Arts of Covert Persuasion and Hypnotic Mind Control!

That IS a vile website.

"Disguised hypnosis", eh?

That's amazing you were able to find Dave Lakhani's name on the affiliates page. I had to go searching through the fine print to find it.

They actually cite Hitler as a "persuasion expert". (Which he was, but the way it's phrased, it's like he's someone to emulate.)

Ugh.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2010 06:34AM by helpme2times.

Helpme2times

Either you didn't bother read it or you are trying to mislead people. I have nothing to do with it at all, they are suggesting that you use my name to target Google Ad Groups, I have nothing to do with that site. The moment I see that kind of thing pop up in Google searches it gets reported to google.

Dave Lakhani