Dave Lakhani, cult mind control tactics, covert manipulation
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: January 16, 2010 06:30AM
This is a thread about Dave Lakhani methods continued here as requested.
[forum.culteducation.com]
There are a number of previous posts in the James Arthur Ray thread about Dave Lakhani.
Dave Lakhani and "intent"
[forum.culteducation.com]
[forum.culteducation.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2010 06:34AM by The Anticult.
[forum.culteducation.com]
There are a number of previous posts in the James Arthur Ray thread about Dave Lakhani.
Dave Lakhani and "intent"
[forum.culteducation.com]
[forum.culteducation.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2010 06:34AM by The Anticult.
Re: Dave Lakhani, cult mind control tactics, covert manipulation
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: January 16, 2010 06:55AM
In response to a post by Dave Lakhani [forum.culteducation.com]
Time is short, so will just start with the first sentence for now.
Its an absolutely disgusting manipulation technique, to try a preframe and label the careful analysis as "paranoia" and saying "Not everyone is out to get you or manipulate you. Some people actually do have others best interests in mind.".
Truly, that is a disgusting tactic.
To use a deliberate overgeneralization about "everyone" being out to manipulate, when in fact we are talking about SPECIFIC professional manipulators.
To use the phrase "out to get you" actually shows the level he is apparently willing to stoop.
They are out to get your MONEY. That is a fact of reality.
Its also extremely arrogant, as he has not read the hundreds of posts with very careful analysis of these techniques, and the SPECIFIC people who are using them, and the SPECIFIC people they have hurt.
He is going to actually illustrate some of the tactics used by professional persuaders.
He opens with trying to run pre-frame that is about "paranoia" which is meant to try to shift the blame for the manipulation, and also try to make people doubt their own thinking.
In fact, comments made so far are based on reading 2 of 3 of books written by Dave Lakhani, and are based on what is really going on with them.
Right from page 1 in the book, he is trying to manipulate the hell out of the reader, to persuade them to attend his expensive seminars, to learn his alleged advanced secrets of cult mind control tactics.
Even in an older book, he said that one of the WORST things you can do is to listen to family members who tell you that blowing 3 grand on a weekend seminar is a waste of money. In fact, that is another pre-frame pre-sell for the Dave Lakhani 3 grand weekend seminar.
So-called expert persuaders are not used to dealing with people who have the same or higher level of training as they have. As a matter of fact, they AVOID those who have that level of training, as they can't sell them anything. So they get spoiled and used to being able to put one over on their average customer.
They are not used to dealing with people who are experienced and trained in advanced persuasion and critical thinking.
The nerve to come into a forum like this, and try to claim professional persuaders have others best interests in mind? Which people?
These professional salesmen and scammers who are trying to sell their junk on the internet using persuasion, manipulation and deception?
Their interest is making money.
They have learned through marketing that you have to make the customer THINK, that you are serving their interests, but its about making money.
Just to be blunt and honest. In this type of forum, about cults and sects and LGAT seminars, and the terrible exploitations they have visited upon hundreds and thousands of people, to try and open up with the "others best interests" gag is revolting and gag-inducing.
Its sounds like the bullshit from the fake "Dr" Joe Vitale, puts out on his blog.
Those who are trained in these areas are not going to swallow that nonsense.
What these so-called persuaders have not learned, is that when the audience is educated and trained, when they try to use their techniques, they BACKFIRE, and the blowback is hard.
Its actually sounding worse than even has been expressed so far.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2010 07:06AM by The Anticult.
Time is short, so will just start with the first sentence for now.
Its an absolutely disgusting manipulation technique, to try a preframe and label the careful analysis as "paranoia" and saying "Not everyone is out to get you or manipulate you. Some people actually do have others best interests in mind.".
Truly, that is a disgusting tactic.
To use a deliberate overgeneralization about "everyone" being out to manipulate, when in fact we are talking about SPECIFIC professional manipulators.
To use the phrase "out to get you" actually shows the level he is apparently willing to stoop.
They are out to get your MONEY. That is a fact of reality.
Its also extremely arrogant, as he has not read the hundreds of posts with very careful analysis of these techniques, and the SPECIFIC people who are using them, and the SPECIFIC people they have hurt.
He is going to actually illustrate some of the tactics used by professional persuaders.
He opens with trying to run pre-frame that is about "paranoia" which is meant to try to shift the blame for the manipulation, and also try to make people doubt their own thinking.
In fact, comments made so far are based on reading 2 of 3 of books written by Dave Lakhani, and are based on what is really going on with them.
Right from page 1 in the book, he is trying to manipulate the hell out of the reader, to persuade them to attend his expensive seminars, to learn his alleged advanced secrets of cult mind control tactics.
Even in an older book, he said that one of the WORST things you can do is to listen to family members who tell you that blowing 3 grand on a weekend seminar is a waste of money. In fact, that is another pre-frame pre-sell for the Dave Lakhani 3 grand weekend seminar.
So-called expert persuaders are not used to dealing with people who have the same or higher level of training as they have. As a matter of fact, they AVOID those who have that level of training, as they can't sell them anything. So they get spoiled and used to being able to put one over on their average customer.
They are not used to dealing with people who are experienced and trained in advanced persuasion and critical thinking.
The nerve to come into a forum like this, and try to claim professional persuaders have others best interests in mind? Which people?
These professional salesmen and scammers who are trying to sell their junk on the internet using persuasion, manipulation and deception?
Their interest is making money.
They have learned through marketing that you have to make the customer THINK, that you are serving their interests, but its about making money.
Just to be blunt and honest. In this type of forum, about cults and sects and LGAT seminars, and the terrible exploitations they have visited upon hundreds and thousands of people, to try and open up with the "others best interests" gag is revolting and gag-inducing.
Its sounds like the bullshit from the fake "Dr" Joe Vitale, puts out on his blog.
Those who are trained in these areas are not going to swallow that nonsense.
What these so-called persuaders have not learned, is that when the audience is educated and trained, when they try to use their techniques, they BACKFIRE, and the blowback is hard.
Its actually sounding worse than even has been expressed so far.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2010 07:06AM by The Anticult.
Re: Dave Lakhani, cult mind control tactics, covert manipulation
Posted by:
buffman
()
Date: January 16, 2010 07:33AM
Hi Dave,
I'll be curious to hear you address my concerns, since the reply below didn't address any of them.
"your observations...are off base and filtered through what frankly appears to be some paranoia. Not everyone is out to get you or manipulate you. Some people actually do have others best interests in mind."
I think it is perfectly reasonable to be skeptical FOREVER of someone who explicitly teaches "cult mind control tactics" and "subliminal persuasion" and does business with LGAT get-rich-quick manipulators like T. Harv Ecker. This isn't paranoia, just rational behavior. Even if someone agreed with your ethics, they should be forever skeptical that you will manipulate them against their will, given your background, books authored by you that explicitly teach covert persuasion for selfish ends, and your business associates.
I don't think there is any government conspiracy to control my mind, but there are people who teach manipulation and covert persuasion designed to bypass rational filters...and you are one of them as you say so yourself! It would be utterly irrational to blindly trust a man who teaches manipulation--even if I think he might have my best interests in mind. Isn't this image of the guy who could start a cult--but doesn't because of his ethics--even a part of your personal brand? Why would you protest the image you've created for yourself when someone points it out by quoting your own writing, calling it "slanderous"? Did you slander yourself? I honestly don't understand, but I am open to hearing what you have to say when you address my specific concerns.
"It appears that you have a strong aversion to sales and marketing and it appears that what you most object to is my use of marketing language. I'm good with that."
I am neither opposed to sales or marketing. But it does seem like you are opposed to people quoting your own marketing copy! Perhaps you should get a new copywriter.... :)
I am opposed to the use of cult mind control tactics--which you say explicitly that you teach! And again, isn't this part of your own marketing strategy, utilizing controversy to get attention? Why would you protest when someone sees your engineered controversy as controversial?
What conclusions specifically do you think I personally have drawn that you find incorrect and for what reasons? How specifically did I quote your book out of context, and what specific context was missing? Which ends of the stick did I pick up specifically, and how are they connected? I am actually interested.
I didn't intend to suggest that people can't change. I think you can change your associations with Ecker and Vitale by distancing yourself from them right now--and you can start by removing things from your website and your future business plans and books, and perhaps find a better crowd to hang with. But you seemed to be defending your ongoing business associations with these guys and other similar shady characters--which is your business and right to do so, but you get the associated PR as well. That's what I meant by picking up both ends of the stick. If you change, you don't get the PR (good and bad) from not being associated with the LGAT crowd. What you do with your business is totally up to you of course.
As the RR moderator said, this is a forum that allows for anonymity. I do not wish to comply with your request to be "transparent." It's not a personality game to me--it's about who's teaching "cult mind control tactics" and for what ends.
Also as the RR moderator said,
"There should be distinctions made between various forms of persuasion such as education, advertising, propaganda, indoctrination or through reform (at times called "mind control" or "brainwashing")."
I'm not opposed to education, nor advertising in general and even some propaganda and indoctrination (depending on the context)--there are a lot of tricky ethical issues to be debated here. But I am very opposed to explicitly teaching "cult mind control tactics" and "manipulation" (again, YOUR WORDS for what you say that YOU teach). Saying all non-verbal communication (as in an intimate relationship) is manipulation is a massive overgeneralization and lends itself towards amoral, sociopathic behavior.
It seems to me you're accusing me of a straw man argument, portraying me as saying "all persuasion is bad" and then instead you're saying "all persuasion is good if you have the right intent, which is a very personal thing and only up to me to decide for myself, and also for me to decide whether you have the right intent as well because I'm the expert in persuasion." But perhaps I'm misunderstanding here--please correct me if I'm wrong.
Again, looking forward to hearing you address my specific concerns.
Also, I don't necessarily agree with everything Anticult says either. For instance, I personally try to avoid guessing anyone's intent because it's just not something I feel I could ever know for sure. So if you reply, please address my specific concerns independently of Anticult or anyone else.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2010 07:39AM by buffman.
I'll be curious to hear you address my concerns, since the reply below didn't address any of them.
"your observations...are off base and filtered through what frankly appears to be some paranoia. Not everyone is out to get you or manipulate you. Some people actually do have others best interests in mind."
I think it is perfectly reasonable to be skeptical FOREVER of someone who explicitly teaches "cult mind control tactics" and "subliminal persuasion" and does business with LGAT get-rich-quick manipulators like T. Harv Ecker. This isn't paranoia, just rational behavior. Even if someone agreed with your ethics, they should be forever skeptical that you will manipulate them against their will, given your background, books authored by you that explicitly teach covert persuasion for selfish ends, and your business associates.
I don't think there is any government conspiracy to control my mind, but there are people who teach manipulation and covert persuasion designed to bypass rational filters...and you are one of them as you say so yourself! It would be utterly irrational to blindly trust a man who teaches manipulation--even if I think he might have my best interests in mind. Isn't this image of the guy who could start a cult--but doesn't because of his ethics--even a part of your personal brand? Why would you protest the image you've created for yourself when someone points it out by quoting your own writing, calling it "slanderous"? Did you slander yourself? I honestly don't understand, but I am open to hearing what you have to say when you address my specific concerns.
"It appears that you have a strong aversion to sales and marketing and it appears that what you most object to is my use of marketing language. I'm good with that."
I am neither opposed to sales or marketing. But it does seem like you are opposed to people quoting your own marketing copy! Perhaps you should get a new copywriter.... :)
I am opposed to the use of cult mind control tactics--which you say explicitly that you teach! And again, isn't this part of your own marketing strategy, utilizing controversy to get attention? Why would you protest when someone sees your engineered controversy as controversial?
What conclusions specifically do you think I personally have drawn that you find incorrect and for what reasons? How specifically did I quote your book out of context, and what specific context was missing? Which ends of the stick did I pick up specifically, and how are they connected? I am actually interested.
I didn't intend to suggest that people can't change. I think you can change your associations with Ecker and Vitale by distancing yourself from them right now--and you can start by removing things from your website and your future business plans and books, and perhaps find a better crowd to hang with. But you seemed to be defending your ongoing business associations with these guys and other similar shady characters--which is your business and right to do so, but you get the associated PR as well. That's what I meant by picking up both ends of the stick. If you change, you don't get the PR (good and bad) from not being associated with the LGAT crowd. What you do with your business is totally up to you of course.
As the RR moderator said, this is a forum that allows for anonymity. I do not wish to comply with your request to be "transparent." It's not a personality game to me--it's about who's teaching "cult mind control tactics" and for what ends.
Also as the RR moderator said,
"There should be distinctions made between various forms of persuasion such as education, advertising, propaganda, indoctrination or through reform (at times called "mind control" or "brainwashing")."
I'm not opposed to education, nor advertising in general and even some propaganda and indoctrination (depending on the context)--there are a lot of tricky ethical issues to be debated here. But I am very opposed to explicitly teaching "cult mind control tactics" and "manipulation" (again, YOUR WORDS for what you say that YOU teach). Saying all non-verbal communication (as in an intimate relationship) is manipulation is a massive overgeneralization and lends itself towards amoral, sociopathic behavior.
It seems to me you're accusing me of a straw man argument, portraying me as saying "all persuasion is bad" and then instead you're saying "all persuasion is good if you have the right intent, which is a very personal thing and only up to me to decide for myself, and also for me to decide whether you have the right intent as well because I'm the expert in persuasion." But perhaps I'm misunderstanding here--please correct me if I'm wrong.
Again, looking forward to hearing you address my specific concerns.
Also, I don't necessarily agree with everything Anticult says either. For instance, I personally try to avoid guessing anyone's intent because it's just not something I feel I could ever know for sure. So if you reply, please address my specific concerns independently of Anticult or anyone else.
Quote
ImthatDave
The Anti Cult and Buffman -
I'll be addressing your concerns in more detail shortly as I have time. As I sure you suspect, I tend to disagree with most of your observations, they are off base and filtered through what frankly appears to be some paranoia. Not everyone is out to get you or manipulate you. Some people actually do have others best interests in mind.
It appears that you have a strong aversion to sales and marketing and it appears that what you most object to is my use of marketing language. I'm good with that.
Let me as you this, what is your intent in attempting to expose anyone or any technique here? Are you doing it to try and save people from something or to make yourselves seem smart? Because see, there is some intent behind what you are doing and you are employing many of the same techniques you accuse me of employing to some end. For example, you draw incorrect conclusions and rather than open them for debate present them as factual, which they are not. You quote my book out of context to support your theories, no surprising or even original but effective if you want to cause people with whom you have credibility to believe. Using your own metaphor, when you pick up one end of the stick you pick up the other. You are really no different than me except maybe you are in a different line of business. You do present yourself as holier than thou which I think I've never really done. I've admitted that I've used persuasion techniques inappropriately after I left the cult I was raised in, I used the tools the way I'd been trained. But as I studied and grew, I changed.
You also suggest that people can't change. Then using your own logic, you are no different now than the group you came out of.
In fact, my publisher did not want to publish the book I wanted to write when I wrote Subliminal Persuasion, I wanted to do a much more thorough expose on how LGATs influence people. But, they don't feel those books sell and frankly, they are right, there is a small group of people who want that material. And yet, it was those people who buy Subliminal Persuasion in great numbers and get real value from it. That book gets more calls than any other of my books from people who ask for help getting out of LGATs, Cults and other destructive groups. Calls which I always refer to the proper organizations to help them.
I'd like to ask both of you to be as transparent as I am, identify yourselves and your background. Show my your research, your books, your scholarly works other than posts that you put up here many of which are not well reasoned at best. They are full of opinions and off base observations presented as fact (Would you consider that manipulative?)
So, who are you, what have you written that has been published by a reputable firm, where and who have you studied with that make you an expert?
You can stand on your soapbox here and shout to the masses that I'm bad it doesn't make it true. I know what I do for people who've been mislead, bamboozled, and hurt, what do you do for others, other than pontificate in this forum?
I'm going to be having a call with Rick Ross as well because I'm not sure that I want to continue to support a group that lets such unfiltered, slanderous behavior go unchecked. I don't think he set this forum up to be a bully pulpit for people make inaccurate observations Not that it really matters to me what you say but what matters is that people who come here for help when they need it most end up reading opinions from people whose only claim to actual knowledge or education is 2900 posts.
Did I teach things in Renegades of Persuasion that my publisher didn't want to publish? Yep. Do I use persuasive marketing and sales tactics to sell my products and services? Yep. And you know what? There is nothing wrong with that. You keep referring to a quote form my book about subliminal messaging without referring to my definition of subliminal messaging. If either of you have a spouse or significant other it was not only the things that you did overtly that caused them to love you, it was also the little things you did that slipped in under the radar, subliminal messaging that caused them to change. If you do something knowing that a simple gesture or word will cause their emotion to shift you've used subliminal persuasion. But you likely won't categorize what you do as manipulative, but it is, ANY attempt to change someone's mind is manipulative if you want to be specific and have a semantics argument.
The bottom line to this is that you want all persuasion to be bad, you want all marketing to be bad and it just isn't. I'm the first to admit that there is a thin line between persuasion and manipulation because the techniques are often the same from a psychological perspective. So, after researching, studying, applying for more than 27 years now, the best assessment I could make was that it comes down to intent. Imagine for a moment that based on my experience, years of research, deep study and more that I really do believe that intent is the single differentiating factor (which I do). It may not fit your worldview but it doesn't make me wrong.
Why don't we debate this openly in a format where everyone can listen and make their own decisions? You appear to be skilled enough that even if I were going to try and manipulate you that you'd be able to catch me and point it out as we go. If I'm as devious and manipulative as you think, you'll be able to expose me. But if I'm not, you may find that I'm one of your strongest allies in outing people like James Ray who do things that cause people harm.
What do you say? Shall we do it then we can post the link to the recording here and everyone can hear it. The two of you should be able to easily take me or anyone else on in that kind of debate.
And thanks for pointing out that I'd never suggest that there are no advanced, high level persuasion techniques, I expose them every day. We are all impacted by them from political messages to church doctrine. They are all designed to get some kind of outcome. So, if that is true, and it is, then what do you suggest is the difference between techniques used to persuade and those used to manipulate?
Ok, in my next post, I'll be addressing your points one by one. Frankly, I don't care if you change your opinion or not but if you won't take the debate to a real time conversation then I'll continue to talk to you here.
So, identify yourself. Demonstrate the basis for your opinion. Explain why you won't or when you will have a public debate on this issue. Trust me, you have a lot less to fear from me than you imagine. You'd know that if you carefully listened to any of my interviews about LGATS, and in case you haven't, you should listen to this one that I just did on "How To Protect Yourself From Coercive Groups and Leaders." [exploringthemind.com]
I look forward to a reasoned debate with you. I believe you are well intentioned and also incorrect.
Regards,
Dave Lakhani
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2010 07:39AM by buffman.
Re: Dave Lakhani, cult mind control tactics, covert manipulation
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: January 16, 2010 09:26AM
Buffman, you make excellent points.
Especially the part about how Dave Lakhani deliberately tries to create controversy as part of his marketing. For example, his book Subliminal Persuasion
[forum.culteducation.com]
opens up with Dave Lakhani constantly beating the drum of FEAR, DANGER, how his publisher wanted to censor his book as it was TOO DANGEROUS for your virginal eyes!!!
(of course in this day and age, that is absolute bullshit, as they will publish anything these days if they think it will sell and its legal. So its just a tactic being used by Lakhani to upsell you later).
And he sells his DVD's saying its going to be a FRIGHTENING EXPERIENCE, more fear. [forum.culteducation.com]
This is all just part of manipulative persuasion, using FEAR to attract attention and try to move emotions, and create interest in the forbidden fruit. (he'll sell you the forbidden fruit later in his expensive seminars, if you join his EXCLUSIVE in-group, which he says he might REJECT you from even though you are begging him to take your money).
That is all FACTUAL. Its in his books, in more flowery language.
No worries, he won't reject you, that is a tactic of Exclusivity and Scarcity. Maybe a journalist should send 5 people to join his group covertly, and see if Dave Lakhani refuses to takes $3,000 from anyone? (insert chuckle)
Why do the professional persuaders flip-out so much when their ACTUAL techniques are exposed?
And not the techniques they are telling you to look at, but the techniques they are REALLY DOING which you are not supposed to notice.
They freak-out, as it kills the sales process dead.
For example, take any bigshot persuader, like Tony Robbins. Tony Robbins has banned not just criticism of Tony Robbins.
But far more importantly, on the Tony Robbins web-forums where his customers are, and in the live seminars, all analysis of the persuasion techniques of Tony Robbbins are BANNED. They will not allow it. Online they will delete it, in person they will not allow it.
Why? Because they know if the customers start to learn the precise techniques being used on them, it SCREWS THE SALES PROCESS UP, and it doesn't work.
This is why every LGAT leader misdirects away from the persuasion tech they are using, and DISTRACTS the audience with some "content".
Of course, that content can be New Agey, or Angels, or NLP, or TaoOfDating.com or hundreds of things, and it can also be persuasion.
The more sophisticated, embed advanced persuasion inside the persuasion seminars, to upsell people to more seminars, coachings, and whatever they can sell.
When the public gets educated, REALLY educated, the sales process falls apart.
And this is not the faux-educated, that some persuasion salesmen want to sell you. They want to control the game.
For example, Dave Lakhani says there is a big difference between Persuasion and Manipulation, and does a huge tap-dance to persuade you to believe what he wants you to believe on that subject. But its just a straw-man and semantics.
As for example, Tony Robbins and who is much more advanced than Dave Lakhani, says that to MANIPULATE means to MOVE WITH PURPOSE, and that everyone is doing it to you, so you better do it back 10x better, and make some serious coin at it while you are doing it.
So Tony Robbins actually invalidates Dave Lakhani's entire smokescreen...uh...thesis.
The fact of reality, is that the professional mass persuaders and manipulators, the guys/gals making the big bucks, they don't waste any time on these childish questions of "ethics". To them, ethics is bounded by "is it legal", and those are the "good guys". You can learn that the hard way, or the easy way.
The "good guys" push right up to the edge of what is legal, and just beyond, that is their ethics. This includes every trick contract in the book, every tactic of extreme peer pressure, manipulation, and the dozens and hundreds of tactics used in mainstream LGAT's. To them its unethical for them to NOT take your money if they can.
Just ask them sometime, and they will usually answer YES, that its unethical to NOT take people's money if they can.
The bad guys just try to see how far they can go without getting caught, and they don't care about the law, and those are the ones that make it into the newspapers, or onto 60 Minutes, if they get caught.
So the WARNING stands.
Beware the professional persuader, who does conversational hypno-persuasion for a living. They want to manage how you think, what are the bounds of permissable thought, to set-up double-binds, forced choices, and to decide for you what "ethics" is, and what it is not, and who is good, and who is bad.
(Hint: if they are their colleagues/buddies and are on their affiliate referral lists and they make money together...then they are GOOD.)
If people die and get terribly injured at many of their seminars, one after another, then their "intent" was good, as it was an "accident". Just ignore the photos of their sales material telling them exactly how to target and exploit their customers WOUNDS. [forum.culteducation.com]
Lets get real.
The professional persuaders, those who do it fulltime for a living for years, are experts in managing other people's perceptions, beliefs and behaviors, without those people even being aware it is happening.
When you have enough training to see exactly what they are doing, and to point out exactly what they are doing, as they are doing it, without exception their first response is to freak-out and try to turn-it-around, and make the person doubt their rational thinking. They aim for the core beliefs, and even for the core processes of the mind itself.
This is why the real expert persuaders, like Byron Katie and others, design their system from the ground up, to eliminate any form of analysis and critical thought from the "mind".
They know that once people are using their critical faculties and have training in advanced persuasion, then their system is not going to work on them.
Especially the part about how Dave Lakhani deliberately tries to create controversy as part of his marketing. For example, his book Subliminal Persuasion
[forum.culteducation.com]
opens up with Dave Lakhani constantly beating the drum of FEAR, DANGER, how his publisher wanted to censor his book as it was TOO DANGEROUS for your virginal eyes!!!
(of course in this day and age, that is absolute bullshit, as they will publish anything these days if they think it will sell and its legal. So its just a tactic being used by Lakhani to upsell you later).
And he sells his DVD's saying its going to be a FRIGHTENING EXPERIENCE, more fear. [forum.culteducation.com]
This is all just part of manipulative persuasion, using FEAR to attract attention and try to move emotions, and create interest in the forbidden fruit. (he'll sell you the forbidden fruit later in his expensive seminars, if you join his EXCLUSIVE in-group, which he says he might REJECT you from even though you are begging him to take your money).
That is all FACTUAL. Its in his books, in more flowery language.
No worries, he won't reject you, that is a tactic of Exclusivity and Scarcity. Maybe a journalist should send 5 people to join his group covertly, and see if Dave Lakhani refuses to takes $3,000 from anyone? (insert chuckle)
Why do the professional persuaders flip-out so much when their ACTUAL techniques are exposed?
And not the techniques they are telling you to look at, but the techniques they are REALLY DOING which you are not supposed to notice.
They freak-out, as it kills the sales process dead.
For example, take any bigshot persuader, like Tony Robbins. Tony Robbins has banned not just criticism of Tony Robbins.
But far more importantly, on the Tony Robbins web-forums where his customers are, and in the live seminars, all analysis of the persuasion techniques of Tony Robbbins are BANNED. They will not allow it. Online they will delete it, in person they will not allow it.
Why? Because they know if the customers start to learn the precise techniques being used on them, it SCREWS THE SALES PROCESS UP, and it doesn't work.
This is why every LGAT leader misdirects away from the persuasion tech they are using, and DISTRACTS the audience with some "content".
Of course, that content can be New Agey, or Angels, or NLP, or TaoOfDating.com or hundreds of things, and it can also be persuasion.
The more sophisticated, embed advanced persuasion inside the persuasion seminars, to upsell people to more seminars, coachings, and whatever they can sell.
When the public gets educated, REALLY educated, the sales process falls apart.
And this is not the faux-educated, that some persuasion salesmen want to sell you. They want to control the game.
For example, Dave Lakhani says there is a big difference between Persuasion and Manipulation, and does a huge tap-dance to persuade you to believe what he wants you to believe on that subject. But its just a straw-man and semantics.
As for example, Tony Robbins and who is much more advanced than Dave Lakhani, says that to MANIPULATE means to MOVE WITH PURPOSE, and that everyone is doing it to you, so you better do it back 10x better, and make some serious coin at it while you are doing it.
So Tony Robbins actually invalidates Dave Lakhani's entire smokescreen...uh...thesis.
The fact of reality, is that the professional mass persuaders and manipulators, the guys/gals making the big bucks, they don't waste any time on these childish questions of "ethics". To them, ethics is bounded by "is it legal", and those are the "good guys". You can learn that the hard way, or the easy way.
The "good guys" push right up to the edge of what is legal, and just beyond, that is their ethics. This includes every trick contract in the book, every tactic of extreme peer pressure, manipulation, and the dozens and hundreds of tactics used in mainstream LGAT's. To them its unethical for them to NOT take your money if they can.
Just ask them sometime, and they will usually answer YES, that its unethical to NOT take people's money if they can.
The bad guys just try to see how far they can go without getting caught, and they don't care about the law, and those are the ones that make it into the newspapers, or onto 60 Minutes, if they get caught.
So the WARNING stands.
Beware the professional persuader, who does conversational hypno-persuasion for a living. They want to manage how you think, what are the bounds of permissable thought, to set-up double-binds, forced choices, and to decide for you what "ethics" is, and what it is not, and who is good, and who is bad.
(Hint: if they are their colleagues/buddies and are on their affiliate referral lists and they make money together...then they are GOOD.)
If people die and get terribly injured at many of their seminars, one after another, then their "intent" was good, as it was an "accident". Just ignore the photos of their sales material telling them exactly how to target and exploit their customers WOUNDS. [forum.culteducation.com]
Lets get real.
The professional persuaders, those who do it fulltime for a living for years, are experts in managing other people's perceptions, beliefs and behaviors, without those people even being aware it is happening.
When you have enough training to see exactly what they are doing, and to point out exactly what they are doing, as they are doing it, without exception their first response is to freak-out and try to turn-it-around, and make the person doubt their rational thinking. They aim for the core beliefs, and even for the core processes of the mind itself.
This is why the real expert persuaders, like Byron Katie and others, design their system from the ground up, to eliminate any form of analysis and critical thought from the "mind".
They know that once people are using their critical faculties and have training in advanced persuasion, then their system is not going to work on them.
Re: Dave Lakhani, cult mind control tactics, covert manipulation
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: January 16, 2010 10:28AM
I've just been listening to Dave Lakhani's interview, "How To Protect Yourself From Coercive Groups and Leaders", which he referenced in the other thread.
He actually refers listeners to seek out the "Cult Awareness Network" (CAN) for help.
That's the organization that $cientology took over years ago!
The original CAN actually labored to help people get away from cults, whereas the new CAN has basically been in the business of cult apologizing... in hopes of steering people away from criticizing $cientology and possibly even recruiting them into the group.
I shudder to think of unsuspecting people being referred to CAN.
Folks, beware!!!
He actually refers listeners to seek out the "Cult Awareness Network" (CAN) for help.
That's the organization that $cientology took over years ago!
The original CAN actually labored to help people get away from cults, whereas the new CAN has basically been in the business of cult apologizing... in hopes of steering people away from criticizing $cientology and possibly even recruiting them into the group.
I shudder to think of unsuspecting people being referred to CAN.
Folks, beware!!!
Re: Dave Lakhani, cult mind control tactics, covert manipulation
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: January 16, 2010 10:51AM
As mentioned, the Cult Awareness Network (CAN) is run by Scientology and Landmark was one of the main enemies of the "Old CAN".
"The so-called "reformed Cult Awareness Network" is "operated by the Foundation for Religious Freedom." According to the IRS/Scientology agreement this foundation is a "Scientology-related" entity." [www.culteducation.com]
Lesley Stahl regarding the history of the "Old CAN" and the "New CAN"... "Now, when you call looking for information about a cult, chances are the person you're talking to is a Scientologist." [www.culteducation.com]
Margaret Thaler Singer said any experts the public would be referred to by the "New CAN" would be cult apologists.
Anyone who is referring people to the "New CAN" is either completely clueless and doesn't know what the hell they are talking about, or they are in the cult apologist business.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2010 10:55AM by The Anticult.
"The so-called "reformed Cult Awareness Network" is "operated by the Foundation for Religious Freedom." According to the IRS/Scientology agreement this foundation is a "Scientology-related" entity." [www.culteducation.com]
Lesley Stahl regarding the history of the "Old CAN" and the "New CAN"... "Now, when you call looking for information about a cult, chances are the person you're talking to is a Scientologist." [www.culteducation.com]
Margaret Thaler Singer said any experts the public would be referred to by the "New CAN" would be cult apologists.
Anyone who is referring people to the "New CAN" is either completely clueless and doesn't know what the hell they are talking about, or they are in the cult apologist business.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2010 10:55AM by The Anticult.
Re: Dave Lakhani, cult mind control tactics, covert manipulation
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: January 16, 2010 11:48AM
I introduced the subject of Dave Lakhani by posting a link to an article he had written on common thinking errors that I found useful. To be clear, it wasn't my intention to precipitate a personal witch-hunt. However, he has responded and the subsequent discussion is quite illuminating.
I'm feeling quite torn, at the moment, between wanting to apologise for dragging the subject of Dave Lakhani into this and also quite looking forward to how the discussion develops.
I found the original article to be useful, but I do take your point, Anticult, that anyone practising and teaching this level of persuasion/manipulation is going to be a very, very tricksy person to deal with.
My cynical brain is wondering if posting a torrent link to his very expensive seminar (thus undercutting potential revenue) might be what has irked him sufficiently to re-engage here.
I have no faith at all that there will be any shift in his current position as a result of any discussion here, I no longer bother to engage with those with such a radically different world view to my own.
I have a large number of brothers and sisters that I left behind when I left my cult family and for decades I maintained contact in the hope that one or more of them would also break away but finally I had to concede defeat after 40 years when I could no longer muster the hope and encouragement in the face of 'True Belief'.
I had some selfish motives for wanting to keep contact with my brothers and sisters, but I also genuinely wanted to see them break free if possible--so I don't view this as a black/white issue. Intent and motivation, whether my own or my evaluation of the intent and motivations of others is never simple and clear-cut.
On re-reading this, I just want to make clear that my witch-hunt remark is not directed at anyone. I was the object of a prolonged 'witch-hunt' as a child and anything remotely resembling that dynamic sparks my hypervigilence. I am confident that Dave Lakhani has the professional skills to adequately defend himself without my intervention.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2010 11:58AM by Stoic.
I'm feeling quite torn, at the moment, between wanting to apologise for dragging the subject of Dave Lakhani into this and also quite looking forward to how the discussion develops.
I found the original article to be useful, but I do take your point, Anticult, that anyone practising and teaching this level of persuasion/manipulation is going to be a very, very tricksy person to deal with.
My cynical brain is wondering if posting a torrent link to his very expensive seminar (thus undercutting potential revenue) might be what has irked him sufficiently to re-engage here.
I have no faith at all that there will be any shift in his current position as a result of any discussion here, I no longer bother to engage with those with such a radically different world view to my own.
I have a large number of brothers and sisters that I left behind when I left my cult family and for decades I maintained contact in the hope that one or more of them would also break away but finally I had to concede defeat after 40 years when I could no longer muster the hope and encouragement in the face of 'True Belief'.
I had some selfish motives for wanting to keep contact with my brothers and sisters, but I also genuinely wanted to see them break free if possible--so I don't view this as a black/white issue. Intent and motivation, whether my own or my evaluation of the intent and motivations of others is never simple and clear-cut.
On re-reading this, I just want to make clear that my witch-hunt remark is not directed at anyone. I was the object of a prolonged 'witch-hunt' as a child and anything remotely resembling that dynamic sparks my hypervigilence. I am confident that Dave Lakhani has the professional skills to adequately defend himself without my intervention.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2010 11:58AM by Stoic.
Re: Dave Lakhani, cult mind control tactics, covert manipulation
Posted by:
buffman
()
Date: January 16, 2010 12:47PM
Stoic,
I don't see it as a witch hunt, just rational skepticism of someone who says he teaches "cult mind control tactics." I appreciate what Lakhani has written about James Arthur Ray in helping exposing Ray's coercive persuasion techniques. I also appreciate what Anticult mentioned which is that Lakhani teaches such methods explicitly instead of hidden with content like "attraction," "quantum physics," or spirituality.
However, I still would strongly caution anyone from associating with a professional persuader who charges $3000+ for a weekend workshop, who co-markets with T. Harv Ecker, Joe Vitale, and other known scammers, and who has written several books on covert/subliminal persuasion for selfish ends. And DEFINITELY don't call someone like this on the phone, unless you are highly trained in rhetoric, persuasion, and critical thinking.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2010 12:49PM by buffman.
I don't see it as a witch hunt, just rational skepticism of someone who says he teaches "cult mind control tactics." I appreciate what Lakhani has written about James Arthur Ray in helping exposing Ray's coercive persuasion techniques. I also appreciate what Anticult mentioned which is that Lakhani teaches such methods explicitly instead of hidden with content like "attraction," "quantum physics," or spirituality.
However, I still would strongly caution anyone from associating with a professional persuader who charges $3000+ for a weekend workshop, who co-markets with T. Harv Ecker, Joe Vitale, and other known scammers, and who has written several books on covert/subliminal persuasion for selfish ends. And DEFINITELY don't call someone like this on the phone, unless you are highly trained in rhetoric, persuasion, and critical thinking.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2010 12:49PM by buffman.
Re: Dave Lakhani, cult mind control tactics, covert manipulation
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: January 16, 2010 09:07PM
Stoic:
Just so you know, you are not to blame for bringing up the name Dave Lakhani in these threads, as his name had already come up in other threads before [forum.culteducation.com] his mention in the James Ray thread, as he is also a colleague and business associate with "Dave Benzer" aka (Ali Binazir) [forum.culteducation.com] who is a close associate of Michael Bernard Beckwith from The Secret, who is buddies with James Arthur Ray, and they are all linked to Joe Vitale...and the rest of them.
And of course there is absolutely no personal witch-hunt of Dave Lakhani, its NOT about "Dave Lakhani" personally at all. Its not personal, and its not a witch-hunt, its the exact opposite, its fact-finding and research into his precise methods of persuasion which he sells professionally to make money.
Analyzing the persuasion tactics Dave Lakhani does professionally for a living to make money, (and he claims he charges a lot of money, but that is not verified) cannot be compared to any personal cult involvement.
Dave Lakhani says he does seminars and speeches hundreds of days a year, for a living, and puts himself out on countless blogs to sell his products, to make money. He constantly claims that he charges a fortune to people, obviously as a way to try to increase his own prices in his marketing, and he uses very manipulative techniques to try and sell his products.
So he is in the same arena and marketplace as Byron Katie, Tony Robbins or any other professional persuasion salesman and practitioner.
He says he does Applied Propaganda
So its about analyzing what he is doing professionally, as an allegedly advanced persuader, who sells extremely overpriced products to people, and brags about getting people to join an exclusive in-group and pay a lot of money to get his "advanced" material.
So it would be utter madness and foolishness to not carefully analyze what precisely he is doing.
A person would have to be out of their mind, or totally naive to take what he is doing at face value.
Besides, Lakhani markets himself at times, as having been in the military (which needs to be checked out and verified to see the actual service record), so he shouldn't fall apart in a puddle of tears if people take a careful look at the professional techniques he DOES, (and not just says he does), and ask him to verify his claims with hard evidence and proof.
He knows controversy is only going to boost his advertising, and these days all persuaders load their programs full of covert upselling, so when they are downloaded off the internet, they still can try to make money through getting new coaching clients, and luring people into joining expensive "groups" and seminars. That is why downloading any persuasion program off the internet is very dangerous for an untrained person, as they have no idea of what is loaded inside those programs.
But there are some cracks forming in some of the stories told in the marketing for Dave Lakhani, and that is the danger of putting yourself in the marketplace based on those types of stories.
NLP:
For example, Dave Lakhani constantly says he trained personally with Richard Bandler, and is a Master Practitioner of Neuro-Linguistic Programming.
Well, who certified him in NLP? Where is his NLP listing? Its not coming up anywhere so far, can anyone find it?
Did he just take a one-weekend group course with Richard Bandler?
Who did he take the NLP Master Practitioner training with, and when?
Is he certified and licensed with Richard Bandler as an NLP Master Practitioner, or not?
There are many links using the name Richard Bandler and NLP in aggressive marketing for Dave Lakhani.
Richard Bandler does not like people using his name in their marketing without permission, so perhaps its time to ask Richard Bandler himself about his alleged associations with Dave Lakhani, and see what Bandler or John Lavalle has to say.
Society of NLP [www.society-of-nlp.net]
NLP.org [www.nlp.org]
Just so you know, you are not to blame for bringing up the name Dave Lakhani in these threads, as his name had already come up in other threads before [forum.culteducation.com] his mention in the James Ray thread, as he is also a colleague and business associate with "Dave Benzer" aka (Ali Binazir) [forum.culteducation.com] who is a close associate of Michael Bernard Beckwith from The Secret, who is buddies with James Arthur Ray, and they are all linked to Joe Vitale...and the rest of them.
And of course there is absolutely no personal witch-hunt of Dave Lakhani, its NOT about "Dave Lakhani" personally at all. Its not personal, and its not a witch-hunt, its the exact opposite, its fact-finding and research into his precise methods of persuasion which he sells professionally to make money.
Analyzing the persuasion tactics Dave Lakhani does professionally for a living to make money, (and he claims he charges a lot of money, but that is not verified) cannot be compared to any personal cult involvement.
Dave Lakhani says he does seminars and speeches hundreds of days a year, for a living, and puts himself out on countless blogs to sell his products, to make money. He constantly claims that he charges a fortune to people, obviously as a way to try to increase his own prices in his marketing, and he uses very manipulative techniques to try and sell his products.
So he is in the same arena and marketplace as Byron Katie, Tony Robbins or any other professional persuasion salesman and practitioner.
He says he does Applied Propaganda
So its about analyzing what he is doing professionally, as an allegedly advanced persuader, who sells extremely overpriced products to people, and brags about getting people to join an exclusive in-group and pay a lot of money to get his "advanced" material.
So it would be utter madness and foolishness to not carefully analyze what precisely he is doing.
A person would have to be out of their mind, or totally naive to take what he is doing at face value.
Besides, Lakhani markets himself at times, as having been in the military (which needs to be checked out and verified to see the actual service record), so he shouldn't fall apart in a puddle of tears if people take a careful look at the professional techniques he DOES, (and not just says he does), and ask him to verify his claims with hard evidence and proof.
He knows controversy is only going to boost his advertising, and these days all persuaders load their programs full of covert upselling, so when they are downloaded off the internet, they still can try to make money through getting new coaching clients, and luring people into joining expensive "groups" and seminars. That is why downloading any persuasion program off the internet is very dangerous for an untrained person, as they have no idea of what is loaded inside those programs.
But there are some cracks forming in some of the stories told in the marketing for Dave Lakhani, and that is the danger of putting yourself in the marketplace based on those types of stories.
NLP:
For example, Dave Lakhani constantly says he trained personally with Richard Bandler, and is a Master Practitioner of Neuro-Linguistic Programming.
Well, who certified him in NLP? Where is his NLP listing? Its not coming up anywhere so far, can anyone find it?
Did he just take a one-weekend group course with Richard Bandler?
Who did he take the NLP Master Practitioner training with, and when?
Is he certified and licensed with Richard Bandler as an NLP Master Practitioner, or not?
There are many links using the name Richard Bandler and NLP in aggressive marketing for Dave Lakhani.
Richard Bandler does not like people using his name in their marketing without permission, so perhaps its time to ask Richard Bandler himself about his alleged associations with Dave Lakhani, and see what Bandler or John Lavalle has to say.
Society of NLP [www.society-of-nlp.net]
NLP.org [www.nlp.org]
Re: Dave Lakhani, cult mind control tactics, covert manipulation
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: January 16, 2010 09:22PM
Bingo. You see, this is their methodology. They have years and years of professional experience and advanced training, in conversational hypno-persuasion, using all sorts of complex and loaded techniques, combined with every sales technique on earth.
That is what Richard Bandler, for example, primarily teaches and does these days. (with lots of smoke and mirrors thrown in). So for an untrained person, or someone with minimal professional training, they are asking for serious trouble to get on the end of a telephone with a full-time, experienced, trained, professional conversational persuader, influencer and salesperson. That's all it takes.
Just read their own material, they brag about being able to put people into light trance in minutes, and run circles inside of circles, with nested loops, and extremely sophisticated techniques.
Its no accident the pro's tell you to call them up on the phone, that is their turf, and that's all they need.
No don't call them on the phone, and don't step into the ring with a blackbelt in Taekwondo either, unless you want to get knocked Unconscious without knowing what hit you.
HOW TO NOT GET KNOCKED OUT: [forum.culteducation.com]
That is what Richard Bandler, for example, primarily teaches and does these days. (with lots of smoke and mirrors thrown in). So for an untrained person, or someone with minimal professional training, they are asking for serious trouble to get on the end of a telephone with a full-time, experienced, trained, professional conversational persuader, influencer and salesperson. That's all it takes.
Just read their own material, they brag about being able to put people into light trance in minutes, and run circles inside of circles, with nested loops, and extremely sophisticated techniques.
Its no accident the pro's tell you to call them up on the phone, that is their turf, and that's all they need.
No don't call them on the phone, and don't step into the ring with a blackbelt in Taekwondo either, unless you want to get knocked Unconscious without knowing what hit you.
HOW TO NOT GET KNOCKED OUT: [forum.culteducation.com]
Quote
buffman
And DEFINITELY don't call someone like this on the phone, unless you are highly trained in rhetoric, persuasion, and critical thinking.
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