I've been watching the trial as much as I can, and I'm extremely disturbed by what I've heard. I'm shocked at how easily various so called experts explain away the physical symptoms participants had during the event. There seems to be a misconception some people have that foaming in the mouth is NOT a symptom of heat stroke.

Foaming at the mouth is seen when someone's heart is beating so fast as to cause them to go into congestive heart failure. Because the heart is no longer beating effectively fluid from the body's blood backs up in the lung, breathing becomes labored and foam comes up. If too much fluid backs up the person literally drowns in their own fluid and dies.

The fact is ALL the sweat lodge participants were fatigued from days worth of sleep deprivation (which causes rapid heartbeat and more), and dehydrated from their three day fast, so their bodies were not in the best shape to tolerate the intense conditions within the lodge. I'm surprised no one has brought up the fact that NO ONE can survive without fluids for more than 4 days. In fact, people have died within three days. EVERYONE who participated in the vision quest was SEVERELY dehydrated at the cellular level!!!

There is no physical way they could have reversed the amount of dehydration caused by three days not drinking in a few hours of drinking fluids. ANYTIME you consume over 32 ounces of fluid within an hour, you risk fluid toxicity AND DEATH!!!. THE SYMPTOMS OF WATER TOXICITY ARE DRUNKENESS!!! So if a participant were suffering water toxicity, there's no way they could make rational decisions. People with high blood pressure and/or heart disease drinking too much fluids could go into congestive failure. The safest, quickest way to rehydrate is IV fluids.

Because the temperatures in the sweat lodge were so extremely high, the huge amount of water the super heated air now contained (absolute humidity) would have made breathing extremely difficult for ANYONE, let alone some with a system severely weakened by dehydration, the effects of prolonged hunger (ketoacidosis) extreme fatigue, and sleep deprivation. Any one of these physical insults would have damaged this person's to make sound judgements as to the state of their health.

I was socked upon learning about the large amount of tobacco which had been hung up in the sweat lodge. Seven pouches for each person. That's well over 300 pouches, a staggering amount!!!! I find it ironic that Mr Ray's defence states the people who died were suffering from pesticide poisoning, as tobacco is used as an insecticide. The symptoms of nicotine poisoning are as follows:

Vomiting and nausea, diarrhea
Headaches
Difficulty breathing
Pallor
Sweating
Palpitations
Lisps
Stomach pains/cramps
Seizures
Weakness
Drooling

It's chilling that Mr Ray told people that these symptoms as normal during a sweat lodge. THE ARE NOT!!! Which leads me to believe that making people sick was part of Rays agenda to push people near death and an altered state. The guy's an even more sick psycho than I originally believed.

Dr Bunn stated she kept falling asleep during Holotropic breathing. For the record Holotropic breathing (hyperventilation) DOES NOT CAUSE PEOPLE TO FALL ASLEEP!!! These folks were passing out from oxygen deprivation in the brain, caused by hyperventilation. Holotripic breathing is contraindicated for people suffering from cardiovascular problems, glaucoma, severe psychiatric illness, and pregnancy. Hyperventilation is used during EEG studies to test for any epileptic activity in the brain. Which is why special precautions must be used in the case of epileptics, as hyperventilation is known to cause grand mal seizures, even in people not previously diagnosed with epilepsy.

I can't even imagine why Mr Ray would facilitate these types of dangerous events WITHOUT having any type of paramedic and/or doctor in attendance. The only reasonable explination I can come up with is that he never gave a damn about ANY of his followers. I further believe should he manage to get charges dropped, he'll continue on as before.

Lastly, did anyone else read document V1300CR201080049 [[url=http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docsYAV/Cases/State%20of%20Arizona%20vs%20James%20Arthur%20Ray/03-14-2011%20MOTION-EXTENSION%20OF%20TIME.pdf]MOTION-EXTENSION OF TIME.pdf[/url]]

It would seem James Arthur Ray is not certified in The Samurai Game®, (wasn't playing the game the way it was intended) nor is he certified to teach Holotrophic Breathing, and he never finished training with Huna. The Huna director was interviewed and said that they kicked James Ray out of school because he'd been leading classes on his own and refused to stop. Turns out he had created his own hybred class. I can't help wondering if he has any credentials at all?

Seems he's been taking enough of a class to obsorb what he wanted, then changes it to suit his needs and tells his followers how much he's studied over the years. What phenominal bull pucky!!! Impatient Adult ADD sicko, does it his way and makes millions. Very spooky stuff.

Jeannika

Quote
Jeannika
Seems he's been taking enough of a class to obsorb what he wanted, then changes it to suit his needs and tells his followers how much he's studied over the years. What phenominal bull pucky!!! Impatient Adult ADD sicko, does it his way and makes millions. Very spooky stuff.

Jeanika, I agree with your assessment of James Ray as a sick psycho who didn't give a damn about his followers, but I take exception to the implication that Adult ADD played a role in his sociopathic behavior.

Like the rest of humanity, the vast majority of people with ADHD are kind, ethical people and it is unfair to them to suggest a link between that condition and the type of conduct exhibited by James Ray.

Good information, Jeannika. As this trial progresses, I feel more and more sad at what I'm hearing. The defense bringing Dr. Bunn to tears, then reading the update below - it's truly heartbreaking. Then, they write their epitaph before the sweat lodge???? Unreal.

"Stephen Ray has a few lingering effects: no sense of taste or smell, ringing in his ears that comes and goes, headaches, trouble sleeping, trouble with his thinking, and trouble recognizing people he knows. Sometimes he needs to hear the voice because the faces don't register. "

I do agree with question lady re: Adult ADD, and you probably wrote that fast without researching it. He seems more to me like he's got Narcissistic personality disorder, but I'd be curious as to what a psychiatrist would say.

James Arthur Ray has a statement he loves to make at his seminars. "Most of us have attention deficit disorder when it comes to achieving what we desire" He also talks a lot about his difficult and troubled childhood. While at the seminar watching Mr Ray my husband made a statement that he was acting an awful lot like some folks we know with adult ADD.

After seeing the suitcase full of prescription medications Mr Ray had with him at Angel Valley I realized Mr Ray had way more problems than anyone ever knew. At this point we don't know how much of his symptoms (personality) exaserbated by his chronic steroid abuse, or are simply unique to his innate personality, (be it sociopathic, narcissistic, adult attachment disorder, etc.). I only know he's one scary son-of-a-gun who did me a great favor when he treated me so badly in 2007.

Please accept my appologies to anyone I offended, as this was not my intent. ADD runs in both my husband's and my own family, so please know that I meant no disrespect to ANYONE with that diagnosis. I know first hand the challenges and difficulties people with ADD (both children and adults) are forced to deal with on a daily basis. That said, the fact that most of people with ADD are great folks, doesn't preclude someone with sociopathic and/or narcissistic behavior from having it as well.

Quote

The presentation of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) is often complicated clinically by the concurrent presence of other mental health conditions. This was highlighted dramatically in results of the recent National Comorbidity Survey -- Replication study,[1] which surveyed 3199 adults in the United States. That study found that in the previous 12 months, individuals with ADHD had a high likelihood of experiencing comorbid Axis I disorders. The odds ratio that an adult who endorsed criteria for ADHD would endorse another condition, for example, was 18.6 (SE 4.2) for any mood disorder; 47.1 (SE 5.0) for any anxiety disorder; and 15.2 (SE 4.8) for any substance abuse disorder.[1] A selection of reports from this year's American Psychiatric Association annual meeting highlight how researchers are exploring the complicated clinical presentations common to patients with ADHD.


From Medscape Psychiatry & Mental Health
ADHD and Comorbid Conditions
Craig B.H. Surman, MD

Adult ADD Symptom Test:

If you experience more than 10 points on this adult ADD self symptom test, Attention Deficit Disorder is likely present.

• An internal sense of anxiety
• Impulsive spending habits
• Frequent distractions during sex
• Frequently misplace the car keys, your purse or wallet or other day-to-day items
• Lack of attention to detail
• Family history of ADD, learning problems, mood disorders or substance abuse problems
• Trouble following the proper channels or chain of commands
• An attitude of "read the directions when all else fails"
• Frequent traffic violations
• Impulsive job changes
• Trouble maintaining an organized work and/or home environment
• Chronically late or always in a hurry
• Frequently overwhelmed by tasks of daily living
• Poor financial management and frequent late bills
• Procrastination
• Spending excessive time at work due to inefficiencies
• Inconsistent work performance
• Sense of underachievement
• Frequent mood swings
• Trouble sustaining friendships or intimate relationships
• A need to seek high stimulation activities
• Tendency toward exaggerated outbursts
• Transposing numbers, letters, words
• Tendency toward being argumentative
• Addictive personality toward food, alcohol, drugs, work and/or gambling
• Tendency to worry needlessly and endlessly
• "Thin-skinned" - having quick or exaggerated responses to real or imagined slights

Jeannika

ADD or AHDD does not impair kindness or empathy. But narcissistic behavior disorder most certainly would compromise kindness and empahty.

BTW Heinz Kohut made a careful distinction between Narcissistic personality disorder vs Narcissistic behavior disorder.

In Narcissistic personality disorder one may experience others as extensions of oneself or as objects, but one does not TREAT other persons that way.

In Narcissistic behavior disorder, which is very much more severe, one actually uses/abuses other persons as objects as despised aspects of the abusers own self. It is as though the abuser unconsciously and simultaneously regards you, the victim, as both stinking feces and the toilet into which the abuser shits hated shit self and flushes it away. You are both shit and that which swallows and flushes away the shit.

An egregious abuser needs a household of persons to provide maintainance for emotions. Abusees are the toilet and plumbing system when the abuser fills with a sense of weakiness and loathesomeness. (shit)

Some of us may serve several functions - validate the abusers specialness, others to soothe and make excuses for the vile behavior and do PR, others to be objectified as garbage and garbage disposal.

Outsiders who come in for classes, who only see the abuser being nurturing and charming in public will have no idea of the horror behind the scenes. They will get only the bliss and invalidate those who have been treated as toilets and are now warning the world to beware.

The term narcissist/narcissm must be used carefully.
All of us, as a result of early childhood have a bit or a little more than a bit of narcissistic personality disorder.

But this does not translated into treating others horribly. '

In Narcissistic behavior disorder there is a trail of wreckage left in that persons wake--other persons who have been used as objects, then discarded
when no longer interesting or useful.

Popular literature on narcissism in most cases, fails to mention this careful distinction between NPD and NBD.

I cannot yet find anything online giving this information. This distinction between Narcissistic personality disorder vs Narcissistic behavior disorder is referred to in Ullman and Paul's 2007 book, The Self Psychology of Addiction and Its Treatment:Narcissus in Wonderland.

These authors stated that Kohut's writings span many years and they had to systematically study Kohuts output as part of the 10 plus years it took for them to complete this book.

THe distinction between Narcissistic personality disorder (merely experiencing people as extensions of onself without actually treating them that way) versus the more severe Narcissistic behavior Disorder in whicth the person actually uses/abuses other as objects is a very important one to make.

Ullman and Paul see addiction as a form of narcissistic behavior disorder.

It may be (and this is my layman's guess-Corboy) that the abusive leaders we dicuss on RI.com are addicted to using other people to regulate their own moods and sense of self worth. Hence the need for more and more and more recruits to the people-addict leaders group.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2019 03:51AM by corboy.

wondering

(cross-post for reference)
------------
James Arthur Ray was also an incompetent, talentless hack, but he made a lot of money, and now 4 people are DEAD, there is a criminal trial, and many others injured in many ways.

James Arthur Ray. James Ray, the greasy salesman pitchman guy from The Secret [forum.culteducation.com]
James Ray was identified and EXPLAINED in these threads in MINUTES after he appeared on Oprah, over a year before 4 people ended up dead.
--------------------------------------
JAMES ARTHUR RAY EXPOSED Feb 2007 [forum.culteducation.com]
"Oprah has also unleashed 2 more new Age Gurus on the soccer moms of America to be milked like fattened cattle.

James Ray: who is a new Werner Erhard type, very slick and sleazy, and who is a Tony Robbins clone, repeating Robbins exact words verbatim, over and over.
He said there is World Peace in HIS world, because he ignores the world.
Oprah just crowned this sleazy salesman James Ray the new Werner Erhard. There were some horrible complaints about this guy on the Oprah boards, people getting ripped off 10K, and lots of people burning their feet in his "fire-walk" and not being allowed to go to the hospital. This guy is very bad."

From the trial courtesy of CNN: Doctors treating "Sweat Lodge" victims feared it was a cult "mass suicide".

[edition.cnn.com]


And from ABC News, DeathRay's defense team goes hardball on roommate of victim to discredit testimonies and muddy the waters:

[abcnews.go.com]

I can't wait for Rick Ross' testimony.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2011 04:10AM by Sparky.

Sparky - I couldn't believe how rude & mean the defense was to Beverly Bunn... she still appears to be traumatized and I pray she gets the help she needs to heal and get past this.

I think all the participants will testify before Rick Ross... I can't wait to hear him too!

Yeah, Rick Ross and the other expert witnesses and professional responders and doctors are going to take all these witness testimonies and tie them up with a nice little bow and stick it in Death Ray's craw.