I'm pretty cynical about NLP as well, but I do think there are useful models of therapeutic techniques in NLP as well. It's not all ruthless persuasion/sales/seduction.

For instance the UK publisher of NLP books has a large section on psychotherapy and counselling: [www.crownhouse.co.uk]

I think that is a very good point, regardless of whether you call it NLP or not, that aspiring cult leaders generally study another cult leader or are exposed in some way before setting out to copy and use the persuasion tech for their own ends.

Death Ray took pointers from Scientology as well as being exposed in childhood to his fathers evangelical preaching style.
Rajneesh has spawned an army of mini cult leader wannabes, as has the Maharishi.

That doesn't make everyone ever caught up in a cult to be potential evil-doers. The majority are caught because they genuinely believe in the implicit promises made to them. Some struggle out of the confusion, some never do. The smallest number see the financial potential and are powerhungry enough to have a go themselves. Distinguishing between these is the important point.

The Steve Pavlina quote to me sounds very much like a person justifying himself and rationalising his reasons for exploiting the people close to him--the only unusual thing in that is that he is doing it in public on a blog. He is clearly so 'up himself' that he cannot see how transparently odious his justifications are. Fawning fans don't do much for a realistic self-image.

Just for the record, I've never really commented on the therapeutic patterns from NLP, taken from Virginia Satir, Perls and others. Can't recommend any of the classic NLP books either, as it would take too much time to check out those writers behind the scenes to see what's going on, if anything.
There are even some classic NLPers who market the classic NLP content (swish patterns, etc) and who also covertly run the persuasion stuff in their NLP seminars to goose sales.


In the context of sales, LGAT's and cults, its been focussed on the NLPers who've copied the persuasion techniques down to a science. Its really a different area of NLP, although they overlap in very complex ways.

For example Robert Dilts who promoted the classic NLP, moved right into the...Sleight of Mouth, and far far beyond. Its a nightmare for the average person to try and unravel, it really is.

Sleight of Mouth: The Magic of Conversational Belief Change [www.amazon.com]
SOM [en.wikipedia.org]
Sleight of Mouth - powerful nlp language patterns to skyrocket your persuasion abilities [www.sleight-of-mouth.com]



Also, a certain former NLPer who is being commented on at the Droid website, frankly don't even want to mention his name here, as it just triggers flame wars that go nowhere. But some people who have had personal interactions with that person have spoken of just unbelievable pointless conflict, including verbal threats and worse. Just a big waste of time from this side of the fence.

Quote
buffman
I'm pretty cynical about NLP as well, but I do think there are useful models of therapeutic techniques in NLP as well. It's not all ruthless persuasion/sales/seduction.

For instance the UK publisher of NLP books has a large section on psychotherapy and counselling: [www.crownhouse.co.uk]

Fair enough. Personally I'm just trying to figure all this stuff out myself, having gotten introduced to NLP from Tony Robbins--whom I wouldn't recommend. But I have found many distinctions and classic techniques from NLP helpful.

The story goes (and who knows if this happened this way) that the sleight-of-mouth patterns or "conversational reframing" were discovered by Robert Dilts in a Richard Bandler seminar. Apparently Bandler was playing a client and a volunteer on stage was playing therapist and trying to get Bandler-as-client to change a limiting belief. Bandler weaseled out of whatever the volunteer therapist did by using language in unusual ways. Dilts modeled these ways of speaking and thought that they would be useful on the other end as therapist, to help the client see new perspectives.

So like any of these things it goes both ways. SoM can be used to hold on more rigidly to one's beliefs by twisting the words of others and reframing all feedback to fit one's agenda (like James Arthur Ray is doing now on Twitter), or the same behaviors can be used to loosen up one's own rigidly held perspective. In a sense, if a therapist uses SoM patterns with a client, they are pushing their agenda of healing, holding fast to the notion that the client can change, is resourceful, etc. But it can also be pushy or manipulative in a therapeutic context if used with more of a personal agenda like "you must change today," a pushy attitude which Bandler himself models, often threatening clients with physical or psychological violence if they don't change on his timetable.

It also gets so tiresome, to hear the same little games being played by the NLPers, year after year, trying to reframe NLP using persuasion tech derived from NLP, and related practices. They just do that to try and manipulate newbies, who are the only ones who are going to spend money anyway.
There is a huge well-known industry of advanced covert persuasion tech that has been codified into models using NLP methods, and other methods. Everryone in the field knows all about it.

But the people who do and sell that stuff for a living to pay their mortgages, know they have to screw with the minds of the newbies, to make a sale. Its all part of the same game, Stever Robbins called it Innoculations here. [forum.culteducation.com]
There are a zillion ways to do it, and this is why the pro's in the field will never give a straight answer to anyone on this subject.
And yes, the big name NLPers do the same thing all the time, in person and in writing. The highest levels of the former NLPers are the worst. Its a nightmare.
And frankly, many of the senior NLPers have used the advanced covert persuasion tech derived using NLP modeling, to market, promote and sell "classic NLP", which is one reason why people end up with a bookshelf of unread NLP books and materials, and spend thousands on NLP certifications.
They use one area of advanced NLP covert persuasion, to sell another area of therapeutic NLP.
It can be a very sleazy operation.

____________________________
QUOTE: [forum.culteducation.com]
"Chat Log: Featuring Stever Robbins
IRC Chat Log, August 23, 1998

"Stever: Ok. In short, "innoculations" are simply preframing someone against objections that you know will be there. If you're selling hypnosis to someone, and you know that a lot of people will ask, "will you make me beg for a cracker, like the bad, bad birdy that I am?" then you can pre-frame the answer by starting off saying, "Some people think of clucking like a chicken and begging for crackers when they think of hypnosis. In fact, that's a totally different phenomenon..." you watch them nonverbally to find out whether they seem to agree that that statement applies to them and if it does, you go ahead and answer the objection without them ever having to ask it. It's a nice way of pacing them, as well. When you're setting expectations in a business setting, you want to include an innoculation component as well."
Jonathan: You were just innoculating against us not knowing what innoculations meant.
__________________________________

And coming from the reality school of hard knocks, that story from Dilts or Bandler is not to be believed at all.
Those guys love to fabricate Stories. They have done it for a very good living for many years.
They rationalize by saying Erickson and Satir and other also told Tall Tales to help people change.

The entire thing is such a freaking nightmare and cesspool, sometimes the only option is to just drain the swamp, torch the underbrush, napalm the area, then pave it over.

Of course, each person is going to have to make their own judgements, and wade through that swamp themselves and try to figure out what the hell is really going on. That should only take about 10 years of fulltime effort!
Its a nightmare and a big mess.

Quote
buffman
The story goes (and who knows if this happened this way) that the sleight-of-mouth patterns or "conversational reframing" were discovered by Robert Dilts in a Richard Bandler seminar. Apparently Bandler was playing a client and a volunteer on stage was playing therapist and trying to get Bandler-as-client to change a limiting belief. Bandler weaseled out of whatever the volunteer therapist did by using language in unusual ways. Dilts modeled these ways of speaking and thought that they would be useful on the other end as therapist, to help the client see new perspectives.

...

Are you saying that I'm trying reframe NLP to manipulate newbies? I was just stating what I actually believe.

Quote
The Anticult
It also gets so tiresome, to hear the same little games being played by the NLPers, year after year, trying to reframe NLP using persuasion tech derived from NLP, and related practices. They just do that to try and manipulate newbies, who are the only ones who are going to spend money anyway.
There is a huge well-known industry of advanced covert persuasion tech that has been codified into models using NLP methods, and other methods. Everryone in the field knows all about it.

But the people who do and sell that stuff for a living to pay their mortgages, know they have to screw with the minds of the newbies, to make a sale. Its all part of the same game, Stever Robbins called it Innoculations here. [forum.culteducation.com]
There are a zillion ways to do it, and this is why the pro's in the field will never give a straight answer to anyone on this subject.
And yes, the big name NLPers do the same thing all the time, in person and in writing. The highest levels of the former NLPers are the worst. Its a nightmare.
And frankly, many of the senior NLPers have used the advanced covert persuasion tech derived using NLP modeling, to market, promote and sell "classic NLP", which is one reason why people end up with a bookshelf of unread NLP books and materials, and spend thousands on NLP certifications.
They use one area of advanced NLP covert persuasion, to sell another area of therapeutic NLP.
It can be a very sleazy operation.

____________________________
QUOTE: [forum.culteducation.com]
"Chat Log: Featuring Stever Robbins
IRC Chat Log, August 23, 1998

"Stever: Ok. In short, "innoculations" are simply preframing someone against objections that you know will be there. If you're selling hypnosis to someone, and you know that a lot of people will ask, "will you make me beg for a cracker, like the bad, bad birdy that I am?" then you can pre-frame the answer by starting off saying, "Some people think of clucking like a chicken and begging for crackers when they think of hypnosis. In fact, that's a totally different phenomenon..." you watch them nonverbally to find out whether they seem to agree that that statement applies to them and if it does, you go ahead and answer the objection without them ever having to ask it. It's a nice way of pacing them, as well. When you're setting expectations in a business setting, you want to include an innoculation component as well."
Jonathan: You were just innoculating against us not knowing what innoculations meant.
__________________________________

no, that post was up before seeing your post.
That was a general comment about those who sell NLP for a living, and charge thousands and thousands for "trainings" in NLP, like Stever Robbins and professional NLPers at that level.
Also local level NLP trainers, and those who claim NLP certification, with or without evidence.

A person new to NLP may have had NLP reframed in their minds by the NLP salespeople, or perhaps not. That is up to the person to figure out in the end.
But the outrageous fraud and scams seen in the first person by NLP bigshots and senior NLP trainers...one does not forget that. Its a blood sport.

Quote
buffman
Are you saying that I'm trying reframe NLP to manipulate newbies? I was just stating what I actually believe.

Oh ok. I thought your post was in reference to me saying that SoM can be used for basically manipulative or therapeutic ends. I agree regarding those who sell incredibly expensive LGAT and NLP trainings. I can't comment on Stever Robbins as I don't know much of anything about him specifically and how he does business.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2010 12:49PM by buffman.

The whole area of NLP seems to me to be a classic sales bubble.
How do I sell, for very big bucks, something that tells my customers to find a good role model and copy their techniques?

Traditionally this was done through the apprentice system. A recognised painter would take on apprentices who copied his works brush-stroke by brush-stroke. Once the master painters style had been absorbed to become second nature the apprentice became a journeyman-competent but not original in style. The apprentice was only recognised as a master painter in his own right when he went beyond competence to develop his own style-grounded in his teachers style but essentially his own interpretation.

You can't sell that in a book or through an expensive seminar or LGAT, (largely because you have no power to change anyone--it is down to the person himself to put in the decades of work, or not) so you have to develop a myth or story about discovering some magical secret, becoming a superman in the process and conning the public at large that you can transmit the secret of becoming a superman.

Essentially you are selling nothing, the myth, the promise, so you have to come up with a catchy new name for the myth and convince the public that it exists as an entity in its own right.
Self-help, personal growth, spiritual progress, NLP, all intangibles being packaged and sold as an implicitly sure-fire method to becoming a superman---or your money back, (most definitely not.)

Which is not to say that some of the techniques coralled under the umbrella of NLP are not effective, just that they are by no means new and by no means create supermen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2010 05:40PM by Stoic.