I think this description of sociopathic tendencies fits James Ray's behavior almost exactly. The rest of this forum thread is the evidence.

Why is this dangerous? Precisely because people have died and been injured, have given upwards of $40,000 for things they could do for free or cheap (e.g. sweat lodges, which Native Americans do not charge for, or Holotropic Breathwork which costs about $135 for a day-long seminar), and even now some of his followers are defending his irresponsible actions.

From [www.mcafee.cc]

Honestly, I'm not sure how anyone would say that these qualities are positive, except perhaps that our culture does seem to value ruthlessness in pursuit of a goal, something I lament.



Profile of the Sociopath

This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths.


* Glibness and Superficial Charm

* Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

* Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

* Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

* Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

* Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

* Incapacity for Love

* Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

* Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

* Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

* Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

* Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

* Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

* Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

* Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

Other Related Qualities:

1. Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
2. Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
3. Authoritarian
4. Secretive
5. Paranoid
6. Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
7. Conventional appearance
8. Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
9. Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
10. Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
11. Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
12. Incapable of real human attachment to another
13. Unable to feel remorse or guilt
14. Extreme narcissism and grandiose
15. May state readily that their goal is to rule the world


(The above traits are based on the psychopathy checklists of H. Cleckley and R. Hare.)

Quote
buffman
CTEL,

When people die from purely psychological influence, I think it is beyond reasonable to call someone a sociopath and encourage others to get the heck away.

But if you have a better way of effectively preventing such repeat abuses, I'm all ears.

no... they probably died from the dehydration from the extreme heat

even then toxicology reports wont be available till a few weeks, so we would have to wait for those to arrive :/

perhaps having a the law available would encourage people from dying


they have those at clubs... for example, people can die at a club


but firemen sometimes have these evacuate for safety

Actually, have to profoundly disagree about so-called "life coaching".
The advice about getting a "coach" is correct, from the clients side.
The "standard" practice for "life coaching" is set by coaches trying to make a buck.

Never pay in advance, with no refunds. That is absurd.
Never sign any kind of contract. Ever.
That also applies to career counselling. Never sign a contract, never pay in advance, pay per session. That way if the coach sucks, you fire them and move on.

Its not up to the client to submit to the "coach".
There really is no such thing as a "certified" coach, as that is meaningless. Byron Katie has "certified" facilitators, and its meaningless and arbitrary.
And as has been shown in many areas a "life coach" is too generalized.

If a professional REGISTERED and LICENSED psychologist can charge market rates, payable per session, then that is good enough for a "coach".
Coaches have been trained to try to get people to sign contracts, to make more money.

And of course James Ray offers "coaching", they all do, its a big money maker. [jamesray.com]
Tony Robbins also has coaching, and there have been many horror stories with the contracts, no refunds, paying in advance.

A "coach" has to function like a music or art teacher. They get paid per session, and the teacher better produce results, or they get fired.
The client is the boss.
The client sets the terms.
Sure, once you are comfortable, a person might pay a few sessions at once for convenience.

But the "coaching" thing, is one of the biggest scams to ever hit the self-help field.
Its as bad, or worse than LGAT seminars.
Every single LGAT seminar system has a coaching franchise, and they make a bundle.

And of course those who "coach" for a living aren't going to buy into that. They want the power over the client, with no refunds, paid in advance, with contracts.

Just like James Arthur Ray, paid in advance, no refunds, and contracts.

What other job or profession do people get PAID IN ADVANCE WITH NO REFUNDS?
Who here gets paid in advance, with no performance evaluation? No one!
Can anyone think of ANYONE who gets paid in advance with no refunds?
Coaches and LGAT gurus, and maybe famous painters, but the painters get sued if they don't produce the painting.

What about this so-called "coach" Steve Hardison who charges 150K up front with no refunds?
[forum.culteducation.com]
$1,500 hr coaching
Its just a outrageous rip-off and crooked scam.


Why don't "coaches" get paid by results? If they can help you get a better job, THEN they get paid. If they fail, they don't get paid. That sounds better.
The coach only gets paid when he/she produces specific results.
If not, no pay.
And they have to sign a contract.

Quote
taraverti

Quote
corboy
This was written earlier about how to tell whether a life coach is OK:

Quote


by the way, EVERY LEGIT person who works in any field of one-to-one consulting, like career consulting, says the #1 rule is to NEVER SIGN A "COACHING CONTRACT".
And NEVER PAY IN ADVANCE.
EVER.

.....You pay a market rate, which for a top person might be the same as a psychologist, which can be up to around $150 an hr, which is generally covered by insurance.

You pay at the end of EACH SESSION.
You do NOT pay in advance.
You do NOT sign a contract.

[forum.culteducation.com]

New posts, starting yesterday, have been added to the Native American discussion venue, including a link to an article in a Canadian news article.

[www.newagefraud.org]

...

I'm also a certified Life Coach, and this advice about how to tell if a life coach is ok, is not correct. The standard practice for Life Coaching is to charge a monthly fee, payable in advance, for a set number of coaching sessions, plus support between sessions as needed. If you rule out everyone who charges this way, you are eliminating the vast majority of coaches, one of whom might be the right one for you.

Plus since most legitimate coaches charge this way, what's left over might not be qualified to coach at all.

Contracts are also something many legitimate coaches use. They are usually short term and about structure for the coaching.

Therapists charge the way you describe. Coaches do not.

Here is my take on it:

To tell whether a life coach is ok, the first question to ask is are they certified by a school credentialed by the ICF, or have they completed the ICF credentialing process? Is the coach a member of ICF?

International Coach Federation


And don't believe everyone who says they are a coach. It's the flavor of the moment right now, and there are no laws against hanging out your shingle with no training whatsoever. Dig a little deeper. I am willing to bet that James Ray has no coach training at all, in spite of his claim to have coached thousands.

Thanks again for the education you do here,

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2009 05:04PM by The Anticult.

Another aspect of the James Ray disaster, is his connection to New Thought from The Secret.

New Thought (aka Mind Cure or Mind Science) movement [www.skepdic.com]

Its not easy to know if James Ray really believes in New Thought, or if its just marketing for him. One gets the sense its just marketing, as he has talked a lot about "behavior" and most people in New Thought, don't do that. They focus on "mind".

New Thought is what is behind the movie and book The Secret, which made James Ray famous.
The Secret (a movie) [forum.culteducation.com]

New Thought can get really fancy, but the bottom line is its an absolutist Mind-over-Matter doctrine. Ultimately, they believe the Mind can do literally anything.
It becomes the same idea as the Christ Consciousness, where people believe that if they believe hard enough, then they can do what Christ did in the Gospels, as in the miracle parts, like walking on water, loaves and fishes, healing, and even overcoming death. Literally, not metaphorically.
They believe in a type of Ascension process, where they can attain a Higher Consciousness, which is the same as the Christ Consciousness.

So it would be interesting to investigate just how much the extreme New Thought ideas played in the lethality of the death lodge.
Some who have gone overboard with New Thought, have died, or their children have died as they believed mind alone could cure, and avoided proper medical treatment.
Other have believed they could literally levitate and fly if they believed hard enough, but its hard to know how many of those jumped from a ledge to try it.

But if some wackjob LGAT Guru who was promoting New Thought, really indoctrinated people deeply enough, they could be convinced of almost anything. In a overtired manic suggestible state, people could start to believe that they could do anything with the power of "mind", even overcoming death.
In New Thought, that is called the supreme Demonstration.
They could believe that some extreme mystical process could lead to the ascension and attaining that Higher Consciousness, the Christ Consciousness, or whatever they choose to call it in their sect. (like cosmic consciousness).

Is this the higher state of consciousness that people were trying to achieve, when they went into the James Ray hot-house?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2009 05:39PM by The Anticult.

There is an interesting comment below, from someone saying they went on a date with James Ray. Its just a comment, but it absolutely rings true.
The power of suggestion, hypnosis, and the relation to religion and cults.
It really is very cut and dry, that is what he is doing. He does know precisely what he is doing, its all quite technical and copied from many sources.

Its about POWER. Power over others, and influence, and control.
He knows once you achieve that power and influence, then the money will follow, as well as anything else, like free labor.

There are more links out there on this, that have yet to make it into the thread.

______________________
[www.examiner.com]
QUOTE: t says:
"So, when I went on our date, [When I say our date, I mean the date I had with James Ray...] all we talked about was hypnosis, religion, cults and power of suggestion...

He talked candidly... Aware and smugly pompous on the subject.
He knows exactly what he's doing ....
He has crafted this for the purpose of power over others and money.
He is not a victim of peoples words... He thinks he's smarter then anyone and has no compassion or regard for anyone but himself.
October 31, 3:46 PM
__________________________



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2009 05:54PM by The Anticult.

How many of these known torture techniques have been reported to be used in the James Arthur Ray programs and James Ray Games PsyOps?
How many more?


PHYSICAL TORTURE:

Sweatboxes
Oxygen deprivation
Starvation
Thirst
Sleep-Deprivation
Extremes of temperature
Noise, loud music
Foot burning
Bone breaking (hand)

PSYCHOLOGICAL TORTURE:

destroying the subject's normal self-image
head shaving
mock execution
shaming, shunning and public humiliation
psychological regression and depersonalization
sensory deprivation
Sleep deprivation
inducing fear, guilt, anxiety, uncertainty

@CTEL,

Yes of course, physically and medically speaking, Ray's victims died almost certainly from dehydration and extreme heat---after a 36 hour dry fast, etc.

But why did they not leave when feeling ill? Why did Ray say "they are only purging" when people were vomiting in the sweat dome and "we'll deal with her in the next round" when someone passed out, and why did these people believe him instead of get the hell out?

This is most simply explained in terms of coercive persuasion, and the events surrounding the sweat dome create an obvious context of coercive persuasion, as has already been made abundantly clear in this forum thread.

@Anticult

I do coaching, and I totally agree that being paid enormous sums up front with no refunds in a contract is totally irresponsible and primarily benefits the coach, NOT the client. There is some small benefit from clients being committed to a number of sessions, but this benefit is greatly exaggerated in the context of most coaching contracts. A lot of the benefit of coaching comes from the structure, not the coach, so I think the benefits of coaching have rapidly diminishing returns above about $75-100/hour.

However, I do think contracts must be taken in context. The context you are referring to I believe includes things like being paid well over $200/hour, multiple-month non-refundable contracts without as much as a single real session (sometimes a fake session that is basically a 30-minute sales pitch), extremely high-pressure sales usually coming off a manic LGAT, and with many implied or explicit promises of making enormous amounts of money or otherwise becoming wildly successful if you just get coaching. But then if you don't make money or reach your goals (probably 80%), it's your fault for not having a positive attitude and working hard enough---but don't worry we have just the right coaching package for losers like you!

The justification for outrageously high coaching fees is the false notion that value is totally subjective and therefore the more something costs, the more its value to you because you take it more seriously. This logic justifies all sorts of delusions of grandeur and mania in both coach and client.

I also agree that the vast majority of the field of Life Coaching is focused on selling clients on more high-priced coaching packages. And ironically, the highest paid and most successful coaches are coaches that specialize in coaching coaches on building their practice---in other words, sales coaches for coaches.

I do think there is value in Life Coaching above and beyond that of simply being supported by friends or colleagues, but I think the value mostly comes from the roles and rituals of coaching---the weekly meetings, the value you place on the words of someone in a coaching role, the check-ins, the focus on just you and your goals, etc. Besides a good fit between client and coach, different methods and techniques and even personal experience of the coach have only marginal benefit above the roles and rituals, in my opinion (although sometimes what clients pay for is to have access to the contacts of the famous and well-connected coach---a practice I find distasteful, but people will probably continue to do it).

The problem is that most coaches want to be Tony Robbins or the equivalent---famous, wealthy, successful, etc. I think there is plenty of room for $75/hour Life Coaches who are relatively unknown and middle-class, but very little additional value from a $1500/hour coach, or like Tony Robbins, a $10,000,000/year coach. For that price you could buy a lot of meth, and would probably get similar "benefits."

Most of the coaches and therapists I respect for their high-quality work have small practices of 8-15 clients a week, charge about $75-100/hour, don't have contracts but often offer multiple session discounts after a session or two to see if there's a good fit (a great therapist or coach will often refer out due to poor fit, trained salescoaches rarely will), and see clients for 1-15 sessions on average, and sometimes as many as 30-40 sessions. There seems to be no difference in my experience whether these therapists or coaches are LPC's (Licensed Professional Counselors), have extensive schooling, or are self-taught. I know terrible therapists who have gone to every training imaginable, and great therapists who seem to have a natural gift (and usually study and think about therapy all the time). But that's just my experience---as a general rule, I do think that standards tend to prevent the worst abuses.

On the other hand, many people who've had a bad experience with a therapist have worked with a licensed professional, often with a PhD and many years in private practice. It's extremely common for therapists to never initiate the termination of therapy even after years with no change, and to take no responsibility for their clients experiencing any changes at all. A psychiatrist told me recently that it's very common for psychiatrists to spend 15 minutes or less on a patient where they give a hasty diagnosis and prescribe a drug and then go on to the next patient. I don't know how true that is in general, but it does seem to be the trend in medicine generally, of which psychiatry is a subset.

I think good healing professionals are probably as rare as a good, honest mechanic.

But yes, I totally agree that you should never sign a non-refunds contract up front for any product or service. I think purchasing multiple sessions at a discounted rate once you are sure you have a good fit can work, but having the possibility of refunds makes sense still to me.

It's hard for me to tell whether Ray really believes in New Thought, or just cherry-picks ideas from anywhere and everywhere. I find most of his stuff is ripped off from Tony Robbins, which is why I've been calling him "the living reincarnation of Tony Robbins," except with a New Age twist.

As far as New Thought itself goes, I think what we are looking at here is Fundamentalist New Thought, which is perhaps the most common version. A relative of mine for instance told my lady's son (age 9) that if he doesn't believe he's allergic to milk, then he's not (he's gone to the hospital multiple times for asthma, caused by milk allergy). This is deadly advice, and we don't let her babysit him anymore because of it.

The idea from New Thought that everything is mind when brought to an extreme is as reality-denying as Creationism (the notion that the earth is 5005 years old, that evolution and therefore all of biological science is a hoax, and that the Old Testament of the bible is literally true).

That said, I have met some less extreme New Thinkers who go to doctors when they are sick (although often Naturopaths or Acupuncturists first), don't believe they can fly or "manifest" anything, and generally have a more balanced view. But I do think this a more rare perspective. It is much more common for me to meet a progressive Christian who sees evolution as true than a New Thought person who goes to a doctor and doesn't think they can think their way out of cancer.

Barbara Ehrenreich's new book Bright Sided has an excellent critique of the extremes of New Thought and how they've reached into cancer treatment. Joe Vitale---also a star of the Secret---recently posted his review of the book, but didn't like my comments that said that the death of 4 due to James Ray's delusional optimism was a great example of what Ehrenreich is critiquing, and didn't publish additional comments that quoted insider reports. After all, I was being "negative," and reporting the news, something most New Thought folks don't read due to all the "negativity."

Quote
The Anticult
Another aspect of the James Ray disaster, is his connection to New Thought from The Secret.

New Thought (aka Mind Cure or Mind Science) movement [www.skepdic.com]

Its not easy to know if James Ray really believes in New Thought, or if its just marketing for him. One gets the sense its just marketing, as he has talked a lot about "behavior" and most people in New Thought, don't do that. They focus on "mind".

New Thought is what is behind the movie and book The Secret, which made James Ray famous.
The Secret (a movie) [forum.culteducation.com]

New Thought can get really fancy, but the bottom line is its an absolutist Mind-over-Matter doctrine. Ultimately, they believe the Mind can do literally anything.
It becomes the same idea as the Christ Consciousness, where people believe that if they believe hard enough, then they can do what Christ did in the Gospels, as in the miracle parts, like walking on water, loaves and fishes, healing, and even overcoming death. Literally, not metaphorically.
They believe in a type of Ascension process, where they can attain a Higher Consciousness, which is the same as the Christ Consciousness.

So it would be interesting to investigate just how much the extreme New Thought ideas played in the lethality of the death lodge.
Some who have gone overboard with New Thought, have died, or their children have died as they believed mind alone could cure, and avoided proper medical treatment.
Other have believed they could literally levitate and fly if they believed hard enough, but its hard to know how many of those jumped from a ledge to try it.

But if some wackjob LGAT Guru who was promoting New Thought, really indoctrinated people deeply enough, they could be convinced of almost anything. In a overtired manic suggestible state, people could start to believe that they could do anything with the power of "mind", even overcoming death.
In New Thought, that is called the supreme Demonstration.
They could believe that some extreme mystical process could lead to the ascension and attaining that Higher Consciousness, the Christ Consciousness, or whatever they choose to call it in their sect. (like cosmic consciousness).

Is this the higher state of consciousness that people were trying to achieve, when they went into the James Ray hot-house?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2009 02:15AM by buffman.

Hi Buffman...

Just one point I want to make, these threads are generally dealing with the serious problems with this stuff, and not the moderate stuff or the basic self-help stuff, as that is covered elsewhere.

That being said, all of the most damaging material, represents itself as being harmless and helpful.
Even when people die, have psychotic breaks, get pushed into bankruptcy...they claim they are helping people.
The road to hell is paved with good Intentions.
There internet is full of PR and advertising and lies defending aspects of these systems. them. Why not just use critical thinking to focus on the hidden parts that hurt people?
Everyone gets enough promotion everywhere else. There is not much serious analysis going on.

As far as life coaching, that should not be mixed with psychiatry, or psychology. Psychiatrists get a bad rap, when they are the ones trying to deal with the serious problems people have.
LGAT gurus bash trained mental health pros, as they know their competition and demographic!
Who ends up helping the LGAT victims? Emergency wards, doctors, psychiatrists. The LGAT gurus bash pyschiatrists, when in fact psychiatrists actually help people unlike the LGAT guru, and the psychiatrists are the ones left to try to pick up the pieces with the tough cases.
LGAT gurus just throw those people into the scrapheap. And no coach, or untrained person should ever try to deal with people with serious problems, they could end up dead.
Every clever coach, says in their contract they do NOT do therapy, to protect themselves. But in fact, many of them do amateur therapy.
So its a free country, and people can do what they want, but personally all these "coaches" are worse than useless in this book.

Just set-up a Buddy system with a friend, and that's free.

But there are trained psychologists in every city who have training in helping people manage their lives.
They have a sliding scale.
They charge per session only.
They can work over the phone.
They are covered by insurance.
They have years of training to help people.
Some have training in CBT Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy [www.beckinstitute.org] which is better than any so-called coaching system, as its been tested. CBT Activity Scheduling, and various processes cover everything a person needs, and does so without embedded junk in it to upsell people.

Again, free country, but basically 100% of all the advertised coaching hysteria is just easy money. All they need is a phone to make money.
And everyone should avoid at all costs these terrible awful scams like the Tony Robbins "coaching" system, which costs hundreds per hour. There are many systems exact like that. There are horror stories right in this forum from people who got burned for thousands.

It would be interesting to carefully analyze the James Ray coaching system, that would be a can of worms, what they would do to people in that. Those "coaches" who are very advanced salespeople, who will literally take everything people have and can borrow. They just use the coaching to upsell seminars and products.

In fact, this James Ray thread should be in the LGAT forum, but someone posted it in the Cults,Sects, NRM area. Its really an LGAT system, but that being said, since James Ray is playing God, he is also messing around with religion.

re: The Secret, even the mainstream The Secret, preached very hardcore New Thought embedded into it. That you can stay thin while eating anything you want, that is alone the same as the deadly Breatharianism. [www.skepdic.com] The Secret is actually full of actual hardcore New Thought.

And of course, those who think that New Thought means just being positive, they don't really understand what they are being sold. Of course not! Don't think...
Just buy buy buy, pump and dump.
Doesn't work? Buy more books, DVD's, coaching, seminars...
don't think, just buy buy buy!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2009 03:56AM by The Anticult.