I'm not anticult, but I practice NLP and can address some of these questions.

As with all communication techniques, the technique itself is basically descriptive but is ethical or not depending on its use and context.

Mirroring someone and anchoring their past best friend could be ethical say in a context where you are meeting someone new, they honestly remind you of your best friend from the past, you are looking for a best friend and so are they, you have a great natural connection, and you are talking about friendship, etc. In fact, I recently had an experience where I felt it would be unethical to not talk about friendship and connect deeply with a man whom I wanted to have a closer friendship with (although I didn't consciously do any anchoring or eliciting of "friendship strategies" etc.).

On the other hand, if you are a salesman who isn't truly wanting a new best friend but just a buyer, doing all these things can be quite manipulative and unethical. It's simply dishonest to act like someone's best friend when you're not and have no intention of being their friend, whether you use fancy techniques or just "act as if."

You seem to think that these techniques don't work, but I know for a fact that they do, and VERY powerfully. Clearly they work, or people in the deadly sweat lodge would simply have walked out instead of puking, passing out, and dying. Nothing physical stopped them from leaving--it was all psychological.

These techniques don't work with 100% success of course (perhaps 40% at best), but as anticult has been pointing out, manipulative types seek out easy targets, those for whom it works very easily. In fact, if you've ever fallen in love, the exact moment could be described and modeled in NLP terms, even though the process was probably unconscious for both of you. Using these techniques consciously, at the right time, and with the right victim (when used unethically) can absolutely recreate such powerful experiences. There are techniques from NLP that can recreate drug states through hypnosis. Tony Robbins basically does this and then signs you up for his advanced course while you are high on your own neurochemicals.

Now if someone came up to you on the street, asked you "have you ever fallen in love?" and "what happened first? and then next?" and then elicited your love strategy and then anchored it to them, chances are you would be creeped out and walk away feeling disgusted. But a sociopath sees that experience as "one more 'no' on the way to a 'yes'" and walks up to the next person and tries again until it works.

I was aware of many of these tactics years ago when I went to Tony Robbins' LGAT Unleash the Power Within. I could see him using them on the 2000 participants to get them to put down a deposit for his multiple thousands of dollars advanced course. Even though I could see a lot of what he was doing, I was still affected by it. I probably would have given a deposit myself had I had the money. Luckily I wasn't stupid enough to write a post-dated check, which Robbins literally encouraged people to do who didn't have the money, saying "do whatever it takes" to give him the money he wants, or else you have "limiting beliefs" that will keep you poor forever!

Most manipulators simply leave you feeling sleazy, like you need a shower to rinse off the experience. But the worst gurus and salespeople can rope in a target for long periods of time, getting thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of free labor out of a person all for their personal material gain.

"Sociopath" is a descriptive term and a psychological diagnosis. It is very accurate to describe these extremely self-centered ruthless manipulators. It is also a great term to warn others to get the heck away from these folks, for they don't actually behave in the way we've come to expect from ordinary, caring human beings--although they pretend to until they get what they want from you! Only a small percentage of people act consistently like this, but those that do can be very nasty and deceptive. Sometimes they come right out and say things like "I do whatever it takes to get what I want, whether people like it or not," but we usually don't believe such things because we have consciences and believe that everyone does.

Now that said, I'm not sure I'd go as far as anticult in claiming that all these guru-types are using these techniques consciously and deliberately. That's mind reading, and I'm no psychic. Certainly NLP trainers teach how to deliberately and consciously communicate, and don't emphasize ethics nearly as much as I would like (and most NLPers and hypnotists I've met are not sociopaths, but just interested in good communication skills). But really it doesn't matter what someone's intent is, whether it is deliberate or accidental or driven by unconscious motives etc., because the impact of James Ray's communication specifically is very destructive, and other gurus similarly have been exposed on these forums and elsewhere. As they say in NLP, the meaning of your communication is the response you get, and the response to Ray's communication is 4 dead, 18+ injured and traumatized.

The sad thing to me is that these same techniques can be used for healing, for compassion, for actually empowering people to live independently of any destructive authority. Since these abusive authorities use the same language and say they are empowering you but really are manipulative, victims often have a difficult time ever seeing the positive uses of communication and healing/spiritual techniques ever again. This is not unlike someone in an abusive marriage who never again marries or falls in love because of the past hurt and manipulation.

Quote
CTEL
Hello anticult, thanks for the info in your post, id like to give you an opinion of the subject

you have to know that a lot of it is really con artistry(is that even a word) :p


i personally dont see anything wrong with mirrorring somebody, pretending to be their best friends...


not to mention it does not work, and mirroring is automatic in any human being,


i also dont see the way that some people

i also perferably dont see people as "sociopaths" that seems to me as something judgemental, as if its negative to be a "sociopath", y myself have seen a couple of sociopaths that are quite friendly,

i dont think its good too judge them,


i also disagree with the way you see persuasion, its normal to persuade somebody




much of it is sensory depravasion, hypnosis as a whole doesnt work, there is a lot of junk outhere, nueroscience itself has a lot of garbage

i still dont get nlp.


how would that even work?


"when now" i dont get that..... how would that do any effect?

Buffman dealt with most of the points, but just to sum up.

Mirroring absolutely does work, when done by someone who is skilled and talented.
Its only part of a larger system of Matching, Mirroring, Pacing and Leading, which was outlined in NLP many years ago. Basic stuff.
It does not work on everyone of course, especially those who know these techniques, it backfires.
But it works amazingly well on people who are too trusting, and have some vulnerabilites.

And the most skilled people see instantly when something doesn't work, and change their approach. In terms of sales, if they see you are trained and are a critical thinker, they just move on to an easier target.

Using strong language is essential, to counter the programming going on.
Sociopath is a strong word, but in this case its appropriate.
White collar sociopaths are extremely friendly, outgoing, slick, gift of the gab, and even appear to be kind and loving, and have big smiles with capped bleached teeth. That's the point! They do all that to get what they want from you, like all your money, and others things too.

The advanced NLP material, conversational hypnotherapy, and advanced persuasion takes a lot of very hard study and practice and skill. It takes literally years of study.
How many people are willing and intellectually able to study all the material, then try to apply it through trial and error until they are able to pull it off?
Very few.
And those who are able to do it can only do so after many years of CONSCIOUS effort.
To the trained eye, when you see those patterns being run, its as plain as day.
Its part of the act, when they play innocent.
Unfortunately, most people seem to have to learn things the hard way.

Unfortunately, the new age audience seems to just get lost in the "content" and "philosophy" and cannot see the metal-level processes occuring to them.
Its very complex material, with multi-level communications occuring all at once.

And the best advanced persuaders deliberately do it in an "artfully vague" ambiguous way that has plausible deniability.

But guys like James Ray are so obvious, so off the charts, it is shocking when it appears they can get away with it so easily. James Ray would be laughed off the stage in a room of trained advanced people in this area. That is why he targets the New Age demographic.
And Oprah is directly to blame for promoting several times on her TV show such an obvious manipulator like James Ray to her audience who have no experience in this area.
James Ray was just a small time player, until Oprah gave him credibility to millions, and then he went for the jugular.
Put James Ray on the same TV show with a trained professional thinking and skeptic who can point out his techniques, and its a different ballgame. That's why you never see these guys in a fair and open debate, they choose the infomercial format.

Please don't buy any of this material, as its all loaded with embedded upselling to more products, and it full of exaggeration, and manipulation.

But for some basic introduction, check out the Tony Robbins, The Power To Influence (Sales Mastery) [forum.culteducation.com]

Also do searches for:

"Power To Influence"
Mastering Persuasion Techniques
Strategic Influence

All of that is very basic introductory material, and of course they don't give away the farm, but its still very valuable and educational.
There is a lot of material out there to study, but one has to be extremely careful. Every single "program" that teaches advanced influence, is also loaded with covert influence, usually to draw you into buying more expensive courses on Influence from them!
The big sharks eat the little wannabe sharks for breakfast.

The irony is that most people who would benefit from learning that material, aren't motivated to do the hard work to study it.
The ones who do read and study the material for thousand of hours over years, are generally people using it in their business.

Maybe there are new books that have come out in the past year or two that do systematically teach people some of these techniques? If so, please post the titles here.

There are some books on the market that EXAGGERATE their claims of influence power, to sell books, and then to upsell their expensive rip-off seminars, where they claim they will reveal the "real secrets".
Meanwhile the real techniques are being used ON the people, and may not even be mentioned accurately in the book.
One must always be very alert and separate the "content" from the meta-level processes occuring. Even if the content is "Influence".
Hope that makes sense.
Said another way, those who supposedly are teaching you to Influence others as the "content" of the seminar, are always always at the same time running more advanced and sophisticated patterns of influence on you at the same time.

It does seem to be akin to "the medium is the message".
The "content" is not the real message of the seminar, its often what you don't see which is the real message.

Again, that is for the most advanced people out there in this area. Most of them are much more basic and very obvious to the trained eye, like a James Ray. He really is very obvious in what he does.

But on top of that, you have guys like Richard Bandler who CLAIM to be doing metalevel processes, and might NOT even be doing them, and just want you to think they are!
Yes, it can be very tricky.
But careful analysis of the text and structures can usually figure most things out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2009 03:52AM by The Anticult.

The bottom line is that in any of these professional and marketed products and services in the areas of so-called self-help, new age, motivation, spirituality, and pretty much anything else like...

"free" talks, LGAT seminars, books, CD's, DVD's, videos, conference calls...

one must always keep their critical thinking cap on, to sort the wheat from the chaff.

This is why virtually everyone of these speaker salespeople tells people up front not to be a "skeptic", and tells them to "play full out".
They want to short-circuit your critical thinking processes, by demonizing them as "the mind" or whatever they want to call it.
They know when people are AWARE of the techniques being used, then they don't work, they backfire.

Try it sometime, when a professional persauder is trying to run some influence patterns on you, like Scarcity Marketing. You say out loud on the microphone, wow, nice try with the scarcity marketing, and watch their face go red as they get angry since you spoiled their sales.

The sad reality is that these professionals weed out those they don't want in the seminar, and will literally kick people out, and even have security take them out.

That is another reason for charging 5K-10K-20K, with NO REFUNDS, no one but a true believer is going to spend that kind of money.

Even if you get lots of free tickets from former insider contacts to these LGAT's for research, when you don't "play full out" you will see the Gurus "volunteers" watching you like hawks, and putting peer pressure on you.
If you are taking notes for research or an article, and not "playing full out", it won't be long until they will confront you, and might ask you to leave.

But the trick is to imagine you are like a fly on the wall, or a hidden camera up on the wall, watching the techniques the "speaker" is doing to the audience. Everything from the use of language, music, movements, exercises, and all the other aspects of the LGAT seminar.

If you can get a seat where you can see the faces of the seminar participants, that is even better, as you can watch their faces flush and eyes as they respond to the suggestions and techniques by the speaker, like being backstage watching the show.

But one must always be very careful when dealing with expert persuaders, even if you have a lot of training as well. Everyone has blindspots.
You have to watch the LGAT seminar show, the same way a professional magician watches another magicians show.

[www.amazon.com]

here one that a top nlp guy introduced me too

also mind lines by michael hall


altough i still dont buy the nlp thing :/

[www.amazon.com] reccomended to me a top nlp guy

Quote
buffman
I'm not anticult, but I practice NLP and can address some of these questions.

As with all communication techniques, the technique itself is basically descriptive but is ethical or not depending on its use and context.

Mirroring someone and anchoring their past best friend could be ethical say in a context where you are meeting someone new, they honestly remind you of your best friend from the past, you are looking for a best friend and so are they, you have a great natural connection, and you are talking about friendship, etc. In fact, I recently had an experience where I felt it would be unethical to not talk about friendship and connect deeply with a man whom I wanted to have a closer friendship with (although I didn't consciously do any anchoring or eliciting of "friendship strategies" etc.).

On the other hand, if you are a salesman who isn't truly wanting a new best friend but just a buyer, doing all these things can be quite manipulative and unethical. It's simply dishonest to act like someone's best friend when you're not and have no intention of being their friend, whether you use fancy techniques or just "act as if."

You seem to think that these techniques don't work, but I know for a fact that they do, and VERY powerfully. Clearly they work, or people in the deadly sweat lodge would simply have walked out instead of puking, passing out, and dying. Nothing physical stopped them from leaving--it was all psychological.

These techniques don't work with 100% success of course (perhaps 40% at best), but as anticult has been pointing out, manipulative types seek out easy targets, those for whom it works very easily. In fact, if you've ever fallen in love, the exact moment could be described and modeled in NLP terms, even though the process was probably unconscious for both of you. Using these techniques consciously, at the right time, and with the right victim (when used unethically) can absolutely recreate such powerful experiences. There are techniques from NLP that can recreate drug states through hypnosis. Tony Robbins basically does this and then signs you up for his advanced course while you are high on your own neurochemicals.

Now if someone came up to you on the street, asked you "have you ever fallen in love?" and "what happened first? and then next?" and then elicited your love strategy and then anchored it to them, chances are you would be creeped out and walk away feeling disgusted. But a sociopath sees that experience as "one more 'no' on the way to a 'yes'" and walks up to the next person and tries again until it works.

I was aware of many of these tactics years ago when I went to Tony Robbins' LGAT Unleash the Power Within. I could see him using them on the 2000 participants to get them to put down a deposit for his multiple thousands of dollars advanced course. Even though I could see a lot of what he was doing, I was still affected by it. I probably would have given a deposit myself had I had the money. Luckily I wasn't stupid enough to write a post-dated check, which Robbins literally encouraged people to do who didn't have the money, saying "do whatever it takes" to give him the money he wants, or else you have "limiting beliefs" that will keep you poor forever!

Most manipulators simply leave you feeling sleazy, like you need a shower to rinse off the experience. But the worst gurus and salespeople can rope in a target for long periods of time, getting thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of free labor out of a person all for their personal material gain.

"Sociopath" is a descriptive term and a psychological diagnosis. It is very accurate to describe these extremely self-centered ruthless manipulators. It is also a great term to warn others to get the heck away from these folks, for they don't actually behave in the way we've come to expect from ordinary, caring human beings--although they pretend to until they get what they want from you! Only a small percentage of people act consistently like this, but those that do can be very nasty and deceptive. Sometimes they come right out and say things like "I do whatever it takes to get what I want, whether people like it or not," but we usually don't believe such things because we have consciences and believe that everyone does.

Now that said, I'm not sure I'd go as far as anticult in claiming that all these guru-types are using these techniques consciously and deliberately. That's mind reading, and I'm no psychic. Certainly NLP trainers teach how to deliberately and consciously communicate, and don't emphasize ethics nearly as much as I would like (and most NLPers and hypnotists I've met are not sociopaths, but just interested in good communication skills). But really it doesn't matter what someone's intent is, whether it is deliberate or accidental or driven by unconscious motives etc., because the impact of James Ray's communication specifically is very destructive, and other gurus similarly have been exposed on these forums and elsewhere. As they say in NLP, the meaning of your communication is the response you get, and the response to Ray's communication is 4 dead, 18+ injured and traumatized.

The sad thing to me is that these same techniques can be used for healing, for compassion, for actually empowering people to live independently of any destructive authority. Since these abusive authorities use the same language and say they are empowering you but really are manipulative, victims often have a difficult time ever seeing the positive uses of communication and healing/spiritual techniques ever again. This is not unlike someone in an abusive marriage who never again marries or falls in love because of the past hurt and manipulation.

Quote
CTEL
Hello anticult, thanks for the info in your post, id like to give you an opinion of the subject

you have to know that a lot of it is really con artistry(is that even a word) :p


i personally dont see anything wrong with mirrorring somebody, pretending to be their best friends...


not to mention it does not work, and mirroring is automatic in any human being,


i also dont see the way that some people

i also perferably dont see people as "sociopaths" that seems to me as something judgemental, as if its negative to be a "sociopath", y myself have seen a couple of sociopaths that are quite friendly,

i dont think its good too judge them,


i also disagree with the way you see persuasion, its normal to persuade somebody




much of it is sensory depravasion, hypnosis as a whole doesnt work, there is a lot of junk outhere, nueroscience itself has a lot of garbage

i still dont get nlp.


how would that even work?


"when now" i dont get that..... how would that do any effect?

you are manipulating too, and i also see you are justifying it.



in another subject, i dont see sociopath as something bad, i think i heard somewhere to treat sociopaths different is against the law

i dont think there is anything negative about being a sociopath, big deal that they are not feeling anything, and how would one know they are sociopaths, have they been diagnosed as sociopaths and how would we know? how would we know the diagnosis is not wrong?

isn't misspelling a disorder too?

Buffman and Anticult--thanks so much for the excellent explanations of NLP and other persuasion techniques. Mindblowing. I, too, have known a little about these techniques and still found myself being persuaded or nearly persuaded to hand over money I wasn't planning to. If one wanted to learn more, ethically, what is the best resource? Anticult, can you narrow it down and Buffman, do you recommend anything?

Anticult has provided some excellent resources for studying "dark side" materials to prevent becoming persuaded.

To learn healing and self-development "jedi" materials, I recommend starting with Heart of the Mind by Steve and Connirae Andreas. Also, The Structure of Magic vol 1 is great for learning how to think critically and "de-hypnotize" yourself.

Quote
bgdoglvr
Buffman and Anticult--thanks so much for the excellent explanations of NLP and other persuasion techniques. Mindblowing. I, too, have known a little about these techniques and still found myself being persuaded or nearly persuaded to hand over money I wasn't planning to. If one wanted to learn more, ethically, what is the best resource? Anticult, can you narrow it down and Buffman, do you recommend anything?

CTEL,

When people die from purely psychological influence, I think it is beyond reasonable to call someone a sociopath and encourage others to get the heck away.

But if you have a better way of effectively preventing such repeat abuses, I'm all ears.