swampseer,

Do you have any good ideas to create more discussion, and keep it going?

Part of the problem are the BK "trolls" as well, who tried to disrupt this thread when it first started, and would still be doing so if allowed. They would turn it into a fog of confusion.


But also, I think its due to the demographics of who Byron Katie targets, and due to the Byron Katie system.

First, the system is self-blaming. Most people blame themselves, even when they get out of it. They may FEEL damaged, but they blame themselves due to the turnaround being ingrained.

also, whenever there is public criticism, BK people get those folks "on the phone" to try and quiet things down and shape it. (come into my parlor...lets talk...)

Also, anyone in the BK system for-profit, can't say a critical word, or they WILL be blacklisted by Byron Katie, as has been shown. Also, those who sell the work, its in their self-interest to play the game as sold.

But some critical voices are coming out anonymously, more all the time.
The courage of someone like Janaki is amazing, to come out so openly, she will be publically shunned by most BK people, although some would support her in secret. Or do some BK mind-game, and try to make it all about her, etc.

But to the demographics.
BK does generally target an audience who seem to be a bit "too nice", as they say? So they generally don't like criticism, conflict, etc.
So maybe they are more comfortable talking behind the scenes? Like the "bad" BK people at her LGAT seminar who would hide under the stairwell to smoke and drink coffee? They don't like to make waves, and maybe they just walk away quietly.

Also, this same demographic are more focussed on the "philosophy" and seem to ignore the persuasion techniques. So they just don't have the training to see them.

But I think the most essential component is the structure of the BK system, which engineers critical thinking right out of it.

Its very hard , even impossible, to have "soft" criticism of Byron Katie's system, if a person is in the BK system. It all gets turned around.
Only when a person drops the BK system, can they even start to criticize it.
Then once they drop the system, almost all of the people will just self-blame.

Its a CHECKMATE system. Checkmate means no escape, and people are being programmed to do the BK work system, for life.

Quote
swampseer
Corboy,

Saw that. This wasn't a rhetorical question, either. What dries the discussion up at some point? On this thread, there's not new material available at the moment. On the guruphiliac thread, looked like things got contentious between a couple of participants. If the desired outcome is new participation, fresh involvement, continued dialogue about BK, opportunities to help others question that sort of program, then maybe helpful to examine what happens.

Adding another previously linked item from the big thread on Byron Katie:

[[url=http://igotschooled.blogspot.com/]The School For The Work - I Got Schooled Blog[/url]]

AC and Helpme2times,

Actually, these last two posts were very helpful responses to my last. I especially appreciated the "I Got Schooled" blog and the comment, AC, about BK "getting on the phone" with apostates. Do you think that's something that her organization USUALLY does when they find a "schooled" member (how do we define "insider"?) blogging or writing on the web? If so, and if the goal here is to encourage experienced Schoolers and insiders to examine their doubts and consider deconversion...to have the courage Janaki demonstrates...then the vulnerability of these folks would have to be respected. Not sure about specific suggestions for that, AC, but the power of the commentary on this board, on this subject, might be as overwhelming to the target audience as BK's program came to seem.

You both point out how vital it is for questioning BK'ers to eventually see the whole schtick for what it is. I think you made that point beautifully. I wonder if the message comes across (elsewhere on the board, in other posts) with a firehose effect that drowns the victims you're trying to save.

Insight can come fast. For some, it comes on those proverbial cat's feet. Begs the question: are the more deeply indoctrinated BK'ers those who took in BK's message in an instant and fell in love, or are they the ones who were seduced slowly?

Too bad we cant re-name this thread the Bad AttitudeKorner/Dissenters Sanctuary

I have never been a smoker, but have found that no matter what the event, many of the most interesting people are the ones who go out and smoke.

Quote

Its very hard , even impossible, to have "soft" criticism of Byron Katie's system, if a person is in the BK system.

It all gets turned around.

Only when a person drops the BK system, can they even start to criticize it.
Then once they drop the system, almost all of the people will just self-blame.

TAC has described the checkmate, or what used to be called a Catch 22.

If you begin by being nicely critical, they turn it around on you.

If, immediately you refuse to be nice and blast through the Turnaround and dont allow them to F-wth you, you are made to seem like one of the crazy people.

(and isnt it interesting that Arienaraidne, on guruphiliac forum noted a high proportion of very fragile people and that BK seemed to welcome them. Maybe she feels confident and in control in relation to them?)

ANd the BK teaching that 'the victim is always violent'

Anyone who does an immediate and effective job at defending themselves against a turnaround, who prevents themselves from becoming a victim, isnt gonna be nice.

They might well be accused of negativity, of 'over reacting'--or my favorite--'escalating the situation.'

Finally, if you free yourself by entirely dropping the BK system, here is what you face as the price of liberty:

Cognitive dissonance-you have to face that you spent a ton of money, maybe maxed out your credit cards.

Searing guilt if you recruited anyone you know and love into a system you have now decided is useless at best and harmful at worst.

Loss of friendship networks if you burned your bridges and did most of your socializing within the BK system.

Even if you leave the BK scene and try to hang out in the larger New Age/Dharma Lite
scene, even people not involved with BK may reject you and shame trip you if you try to tell them what you have been through.

The cost of waking up and dropping the BK system is very high.

Quote
swampseer
I wonder if the message comes across (elsewhere on the board, in other posts) with a firehose effect that drowns the victims you're trying to save.

Hi swampseer,

I do sometimes feel concerned about that. When I first arrived at this forum, I could not imagine that BK was anything but sincere and on top of that could barely take in TAC's discussions of hypnotic and NLP techniques.

However, over time it all (or much of it) sank in and I had to agree with TAC.

I'm hoping that this separate thread focusing on participant reports will mitigate the possible "firehouse effect" you speak of.

And blogs such as Janaki's will hopefully help many who don't "vibe" with this forum.

H

I transferred my response into the other main thread, as this thread is only supposed to be for Participant Reports, and that issue.

(taking an axe to the roots)
[forum.culteducation.com]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2009 11:10PM by The Anticult.

TAC, your message is not appearing!

by the way, there appears to have some dissent in the now closed Open Forum at the Institute For The Work website?

[www.instituteforthework.com]
Questions about the cockroach story, questions about the books being copied from other books, etc.
So they closed the Open Forum.
Bye bye freedom of thought, and open discussion.

The Work system, can tolerate a certain amout of dissent, as the system itself reverses it.
But it cannot tolerate questions that challenge the foundation of the system, or questions about how it came about. That would disrupt the thought-reform system.
The Work system, is not about human freedom, its an incredibly constrained system, its about constricting human thought in a very directed way.

If there are any more interesting posts in the now closed Open Forum, there still may be a way to get to them from the Google cache, from the advanced search page.
[www.google.com]
(for the domain, enter the link from above, which is this link) [www.instituteforthework.com]
Then just enter in the keywords, press Advanced Search.
and press "CACHED" in the search results.

And then perhaps someone could copy an excerpt of any relevant quotes, before they are disappeared for good.
They burned old Byron Katie books, they will certainly delete internet posts they deem "dangerous" to the BK thought control system.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2009 06:47AM by The Anticult.

TAC, I can't find the "cached" option. ?

Edit: Never mind, I found it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2009 07:23AM by helpme2times.

Corboy,

I think you nailed all the biggies in your list "losses" for deconversion. Even a couple of those, operating intensely, would prevent most people from making sudden change. A lot rides, too, on the personality of the subject. Some people are just more prone to attachment, group involvement, loyalty, etc.

The potential detractor for us to consider, here, is what I'll dub the Fool Factor. If a BK'er comes to recognize that the organization is not all it's cracked up to be, that they've been made fool of and exploited there, they certainly don't want to be made fool of by anyone again, any time soon. And the deconversion process is full of opportunities for revisiting the Fool Factor, encountering it in new guises and in new corridors...maybe even, for a while, everywhere they turn. "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me." The Shame Alert Meter has already been pegged, the light is steady red, and isolation is likely.