Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Nisargadatta and "I Am That"
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: March 29, 2009 07:21AM
also, in ancient times, Nature and reality was a complete mystery, so basically no one knew anything, so that is why they preached the ideas of No-Mind, and just shutting the mind down.
These days in the modern world, the use of the paradoxical statements, is one that is also used to Induce Confusion in the subject. (every hypnotist does that now).
Just think, if a subject is given dozens of confusing statements, and becomes lost in a fog of confusion, then what happens?
They need someone to lead them out of the fog of confusion. So inducing confusion is the best way to diable the conscious mind.
The real philosophers and teachers dispel confusion.
The capacity to understand nature and reality is the greatest human gift.
my technical analysis of those comments by Nisargadatta is this:
They are either bullshit or horseshit!
But they were pulled out of someone's ass, that is for certain.
There was a fun little book recently called ON BULLSHIT.
That is a good word. Bullshit. Its fun to say. bullshit...bullshit...
These days in the modern world, the use of the paradoxical statements, is one that is also used to Induce Confusion in the subject. (every hypnotist does that now).
Just think, if a subject is given dozens of confusing statements, and becomes lost in a fog of confusion, then what happens?
They need someone to lead them out of the fog of confusion. So inducing confusion is the best way to diable the conscious mind.
The real philosophers and teachers dispel confusion.
The capacity to understand nature and reality is the greatest human gift.
my technical analysis of those comments by Nisargadatta is this:
They are either bullshit or horseshit!
But they were pulled out of someone's ass, that is for certain.
There was a fun little book recently called ON BULLSHIT.
That is a good word. Bullshit. Its fun to say. bullshit...bullshit...
Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Nisargadatta and "I Am That"
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: March 29, 2009 07:22AM
also, in ancient times, Nature and reality was a complete mystery, so basically no one knew anything, so that is why they preached the ideas of No-Mind, and just shutting the mind down.
These days in the modern world, the use of the paradoxical statements, is one that is also used to Induce Confusion in the subject. (every hypnotist does that now).
Just think, if a subject is given dozens of confusing statements, and becomes lost in a fog of confusion, then what happens?
They need someone to lead them out of the fog of confusion. So inducing confusion is the best way to diable the conscious mind.
The real philosophers and teachers dispel confusion.
The capacity to understand nature and reality is the greatest human gift.
my technical analysis of those comments by Nisargadatta is this:
They are either bullshit or horseshit!
But they were pulled out of someone's ass, that is for certain.
There was a fun little book recently called ON BULLSHIT.
That is a good word. Bullshit. Its fun to say. bullshit...bullshit...
:-)
These days in the modern world, the use of the paradoxical statements, is one that is also used to Induce Confusion in the subject. (every hypnotist does that now).
Just think, if a subject is given dozens of confusing statements, and becomes lost in a fog of confusion, then what happens?
They need someone to lead them out of the fog of confusion. So inducing confusion is the best way to diable the conscious mind.
The real philosophers and teachers dispel confusion.
The capacity to understand nature and reality is the greatest human gift.
my technical analysis of those comments by Nisargadatta is this:
They are either bullshit or horseshit!
But they were pulled out of someone's ass, that is for certain.
There was a fun little book recently called ON BULLSHIT.
That is a good word. Bullshit. Its fun to say. bullshit...bullshit...
:-)
Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Nisargadatta and "I Am That"
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: March 29, 2009 07:27AM
also, may I say that the term "Advaita Philosophy", would be an oxymoron, in most cases. It really is more like a religious belief, not philosophy, as it starts with axioms that cannot be questioned.
It really is a bit of a vipers pit, it seems.
Let me close with this...can't resist..
Nisargadatta and "I Am That"?
Nisargadatta "Ain't All That"!!!
It really is a bit of a vipers pit, it seems.
Let me close with this...can't resist..
Nisargadatta and "I Am That"?
Nisargadatta "Ain't All That"!!!
Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Nisargadatta and "I Am That"
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: March 29, 2009 08:57AM
Your levity is much appreciated. :-)Quote
The Anticult
also, may I say that the term "Advaita Philosophy", would be an oxymoron, in most cases. It really is more like a religious belief, not philosophy, as it starts with axioms that cannot be questioned.
It really is a bit of a vipers pit, it seems.
Let me close with this...can't resist..
Nisargadatta and "I Am That"?
Nisargadatta "Ain't All That"!!!
Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: March 29, 2009 10:35AM
I would recommend reading some of what C G Jung wrote about the issues that can come up for Westerners who try to go to India, either by travel, or by doing Indian spiritual practices. Jung went to India in the 1930s.
Jung suspected that Westerners faced a real risk of disintegration if they jumped in too quickly. Jung had opportunities to meet Indian holy men, including Sri Maharshi, but he decided not to.
'I studiously avoided all so-called 'holy men'. I did so because I had to make do with my own truth, not accept from others what I could not attain on my own. I would have felt it as a theft had I attempted to learn from the holy men and to accept their truth for myself...
'In India, I was principally concerned with the question of the psychological nature of evil. I had been very much impressed by the way the problem is integrated in Indian spiritual life, and I saw it in a new light. In coversation with a cultivated Chinese, I was also impressed again and again, by the fact that these people are able to integrate so called 'evil' without 'losing face.' In the West we cannot do this. For the oriental the problem of morality does not appear to take first place, as it does for us. To the Oriental, good and evil are meaninfully contained in nature and are merely varying degrees of the same thing.
'I saw that Indian spiriutuality contains as much of evil as of good. The Christian strives for good and succumbs to evil, the Indian (spiritual practitioner/realizer--my interpolation) feels himself to be outside good and evil and seeks to realize this state by meditation and yoga. My objection is that, given such an attitude, neither good nor evil takes on any real outline and this produces a certain stasis..'
Jung, Memories, Dreams and Reflections, pages 275-6
Earlier in this same book, Jung said something about how he himself used a form of yoga to cope with an overwhelming and prolonged psychological crisis.
I think this section is of the utmost importance, for Jung shows us how he did not fall into the trap of using yoga technique to suppress emotion. But..here is how he stated it:
'I was frequently so wrought up that I had to do certain yoga exercises in order to hold my emotions in check. But since it was my purpose to know what was going on within myself, I would do these exercises only until I had calmed myself enough to resume my work with the unconscious. As soon as I had the feeling I was myself again, I abandoned this restraint (yoga) upon the emotions adn allowed the images and inner voices to speak afreash. The Indian, on the other hand, (or..today the Westerner who is given this sort of instruction--corboy)..The Indian, on the other hand, does yoga exercises in oder to obliterate completely the multitude of psychic contents and images.'
Memories, Dreams and Reflections.
So..if our memories and emotions (our story) is likened to a movie, the Indian or toxic Western form of yoga would be the equivalent of either hitting the stop button or making the screen go black by turning off the projector and leaving us unable to access our material.
Jung, to use this analogy, used his yoga to SLOW the movie down, so he could resume being able to hold and contain his own material and watch it, dialogue with it.
Jung also has essays on psychology east and west. But the material in Memories Dreams and Reflections has a lot of interesting clues. Too often we are content to read snippits of this book, and that puts us at the mercy of other peoples selection biases.
Arthur Koestler visited India in 1958 with many questions about whether Indian spirituality might offer solace or solution to a European who had survived the Spanish American War, World War II, by the skin of his teeth, and who, after having been a dedicated Communist, was horror stricken by Stalins crimes and repudiated Communism altogether.
Koestler wrote in frustration of the same thing Jung noted in the 1930s...the Indian holy people he visited seemed unable to even compute problems of ethids and of evil that were central to the concerns of a Westerner. His book is entitled The Lotus and the Robot, and he also interviewed Zen masters in Japan--and had the same frustrations as in India.
Jung suspected that Westerners faced a real risk of disintegration if they jumped in too quickly. Jung had opportunities to meet Indian holy men, including Sri Maharshi, but he decided not to.
'I studiously avoided all so-called 'holy men'. I did so because I had to make do with my own truth, not accept from others what I could not attain on my own. I would have felt it as a theft had I attempted to learn from the holy men and to accept their truth for myself...
'In India, I was principally concerned with the question of the psychological nature of evil. I had been very much impressed by the way the problem is integrated in Indian spiritual life, and I saw it in a new light. In coversation with a cultivated Chinese, I was also impressed again and again, by the fact that these people are able to integrate so called 'evil' without 'losing face.' In the West we cannot do this. For the oriental the problem of morality does not appear to take first place, as it does for us. To the Oriental, good and evil are meaninfully contained in nature and are merely varying degrees of the same thing.
'I saw that Indian spiriutuality contains as much of evil as of good. The Christian strives for good and succumbs to evil, the Indian (spiritual practitioner/realizer--my interpolation) feels himself to be outside good and evil and seeks to realize this state by meditation and yoga. My objection is that, given such an attitude, neither good nor evil takes on any real outline and this produces a certain stasis..'
Jung, Memories, Dreams and Reflections, pages 275-6
Earlier in this same book, Jung said something about how he himself used a form of yoga to cope with an overwhelming and prolonged psychological crisis.
I think this section is of the utmost importance, for Jung shows us how he did not fall into the trap of using yoga technique to suppress emotion. But..here is how he stated it:
'I was frequently so wrought up that I had to do certain yoga exercises in order to hold my emotions in check. But since it was my purpose to know what was going on within myself, I would do these exercises only until I had calmed myself enough to resume my work with the unconscious. As soon as I had the feeling I was myself again, I abandoned this restraint (yoga) upon the emotions adn allowed the images and inner voices to speak afreash. The Indian, on the other hand, (or..today the Westerner who is given this sort of instruction--corboy)..The Indian, on the other hand, does yoga exercises in oder to obliterate completely the multitude of psychic contents and images.'
Memories, Dreams and Reflections.
So..if our memories and emotions (our story) is likened to a movie, the Indian or toxic Western form of yoga would be the equivalent of either hitting the stop button or making the screen go black by turning off the projector and leaving us unable to access our material.
Jung, to use this analogy, used his yoga to SLOW the movie down, so he could resume being able to hold and contain his own material and watch it, dialogue with it.
Jung also has essays on psychology east and west. But the material in Memories Dreams and Reflections has a lot of interesting clues. Too often we are content to read snippits of this book, and that puts us at the mercy of other peoples selection biases.
Arthur Koestler visited India in 1958 with many questions about whether Indian spirituality might offer solace or solution to a European who had survived the Spanish American War, World War II, by the skin of his teeth, and who, after having been a dedicated Communist, was horror stricken by Stalins crimes and repudiated Communism altogether.
Koestler wrote in frustration of the same thing Jung noted in the 1930s...the Indian holy people he visited seemed unable to even compute problems of ethids and of evil that were central to the concerns of a Westerner. His book is entitled The Lotus and the Robot, and he also interviewed Zen masters in Japan--and had the same frustrations as in India.
Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: March 29, 2009 10:43AM
If both WL and BK were in the Beach Cities during the same time spread, they or at least their students could have easily co-mingled.
Go to mapquest.
See where Hermosa Beach (Liquorman) is situated in relation to Mahattan Beach( BK in the late 1990s.)
Other material, here:
[www.enlightened-spirituality.org]
Go to mapquest.
See where Hermosa Beach (Liquorman) is situated in relation to Mahattan Beach( BK in the late 1990s.)
Other material, here:
[www.enlightened-spirituality.org]
Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: March 29, 2009 10:52AM
"Realize your real mind and drugs will have no power over you."
This BS may have originated with a famous encounter between Ram Dass and Neem Karoli Baba.
At the time, Dass was not yet Ram Dass. He was a drug addled research psychologist and disciple of Timothy Leary who was in India exploring the Spiritual Option.
So the story went, the young American visitor, gave his guru some LSD, the guru took the LSD and remained unaffected.
So this seemed to prove that spiritual attainment could cancel out the effects of LSD.
No one seemed to consider a more mundane possiblity:
That Neem Karoli Baba exercised some slight of hand, and pretended to take the LSD, when actually he did not. Indian gurus have been dealing for centuries with visitors expecting to see signs and wonders. Satya Sai Baba has become renowned for miracles and supposedly materializing objects out of thin air, or distributing sacred ash..when it turns out that he has been palming the stuff, using slight of hand.
I am more impressed by the story that someone handed Kobun Chino some LSD and
told him it would make him feel good. Kobun took the stuff, felt the effect, and his
response after it was all over was a comment, 'That was stupid.'
However, Kobun Chino was also fortunate that in addition to his Zen training, he did not have any genetic loading for bipolar or schizophrenia.
I have known many sincere Zen people with years of dedicated practice who have found that they need to take psych meds.
This realize the power of your mind and you dont need to use drugs is just a hunk of BS.
It ensures people will feel like failures if their moods are still cycling around despite doing meditation or advaita practice.
And it also makes it less likely the people will share their concerns with a mental health professional--which might expose them to a source of input different from the fool of a teacher giving such misleading advice.
This BS may have originated with a famous encounter between Ram Dass and Neem Karoli Baba.
At the time, Dass was not yet Ram Dass. He was a drug addled research psychologist and disciple of Timothy Leary who was in India exploring the Spiritual Option.
So the story went, the young American visitor, gave his guru some LSD, the guru took the LSD and remained unaffected.
So this seemed to prove that spiritual attainment could cancel out the effects of LSD.
No one seemed to consider a more mundane possiblity:
That Neem Karoli Baba exercised some slight of hand, and pretended to take the LSD, when actually he did not. Indian gurus have been dealing for centuries with visitors expecting to see signs and wonders. Satya Sai Baba has become renowned for miracles and supposedly materializing objects out of thin air, or distributing sacred ash..when it turns out that he has been palming the stuff, using slight of hand.
I am more impressed by the story that someone handed Kobun Chino some LSD and
told him it would make him feel good. Kobun took the stuff, felt the effect, and his
response after it was all over was a comment, 'That was stupid.'
However, Kobun Chino was also fortunate that in addition to his Zen training, he did not have any genetic loading for bipolar or schizophrenia.
I have known many sincere Zen people with years of dedicated practice who have found that they need to take psych meds.
This realize the power of your mind and you dont need to use drugs is just a hunk of BS.
It ensures people will feel like failures if their moods are still cycling around despite doing meditation or advaita practice.
And it also makes it less likely the people will share their concerns with a mental health professional--which might expose them to a source of input different from the fool of a teacher giving such misleading advice.
Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: March 29, 2009 02:29PM
by the way, I don't mean to be glib about the entire thing here.
Its just that there is so much bullshit in this area.
Why is there one abusive bad Zen Master after another? Seems like there is a little Zen-mafia around Byron Katie, for example.
Because these guys can go old-school on newbies, and demand that they SHUT-UP and submit to their Master. So its just an excuse for them to be a Guru.
Then if they can screw with people's minds, with paradox and confusion, they are in the money, for some of them.
Just a quick look, and they have endless books, DVD's, schools, seminars, etc
Why? Why don't they write one book, and then shut the fuck up? I mean, seriously.
Why do they need to write 37 books, about the same thing?
For money, that's why.
I think this entire area is absolutely rife with scammers, and they can get away with it, sometimes hiding behind a beard and a robe. And screwing with people's minds using paradox and confusion.
Of course they are valid ideas in this area, but not from any of the current people I have seen.
"He who knows speaks not; he who speaks knows not" Lao Tzu
The only problem with that, from Lao Tzu, is that was written when humans were completely ignorant about Nature. But now, there is such a thing a verifiable knowledge about reality.
But not from these idiots!
:-)
just think, that guy who posted a while back, RandomStu, he is a Zen teacher? Zen of what? The Zen of taking drugs, gambling, and following a greedy Zen Master who was a sexual abuser and should have been 'defrocked' and kicked out on his ass? The Zen of deception, lying and cult apologia?
no thanks.
In the last week, I've read about at least 10 so-called Zen Masters, and they were all corrupt, money and sex.
Its because Power corrupts, and once they become the Zen King, they go berserk.
Even the Romans knew power corrupts, that is why they killed Caesar.
anyway, not to be glib about all of it, but personally I would not touch any of these guys with a ten foot pole. If anything, read a few classics, and that's that.
rant off...
Its just that there is so much bullshit in this area.
Why is there one abusive bad Zen Master after another? Seems like there is a little Zen-mafia around Byron Katie, for example.
Because these guys can go old-school on newbies, and demand that they SHUT-UP and submit to their Master. So its just an excuse for them to be a Guru.
Then if they can screw with people's minds, with paradox and confusion, they are in the money, for some of them.
Just a quick look, and they have endless books, DVD's, schools, seminars, etc
Why? Why don't they write one book, and then shut the fuck up? I mean, seriously.
Why do they need to write 37 books, about the same thing?
For money, that's why.
I think this entire area is absolutely rife with scammers, and they can get away with it, sometimes hiding behind a beard and a robe. And screwing with people's minds using paradox and confusion.
Of course they are valid ideas in this area, but not from any of the current people I have seen.
"He who knows speaks not; he who speaks knows not" Lao Tzu
The only problem with that, from Lao Tzu, is that was written when humans were completely ignorant about Nature. But now, there is such a thing a verifiable knowledge about reality.
But not from these idiots!
:-)
just think, that guy who posted a while back, RandomStu, he is a Zen teacher? Zen of what? The Zen of taking drugs, gambling, and following a greedy Zen Master who was a sexual abuser and should have been 'defrocked' and kicked out on his ass? The Zen of deception, lying and cult apologia?
no thanks.
In the last week, I've read about at least 10 so-called Zen Masters, and they were all corrupt, money and sex.
Its because Power corrupts, and once they become the Zen King, they go berserk.
Even the Romans knew power corrupts, that is why they killed Caesar.
anyway, not to be glib about all of it, but personally I would not touch any of these guys with a ten foot pole. If anything, read a few classics, and that's that.
rant off...
Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: March 29, 2009 09:24PM
Very helpful info. Thanks CB!Quote
corboy
I would recommend reading some of what C G Jung wrote about the issues that can come up for Westerners who try to go to India, either by travel, or by doing Indian spiritual practices. Jung went to India in the 1930s.
Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: March 29, 2009 09:35PM
Ah, RandomStu. Just last night I was re-reading a second blog entry on Byron Katie by Guruphiliac, Byron Katie Poisoned By Success?, and in the comments section, there was good ol' Stuart, once again voicing support of BK (on 4/18/08):Quote
The Anticult
just think, that guy who posted a while back, RandomStu, he is a Zen teacher? Zen of what? The Zen of taking drugs, gambling, and following a greedy Zen Master who was a sexual abuser and should have been 'defrocked' and kicked out on his ass? The Zen of deception, lying and cult apologia?
no thanks.
Sounds so reasonable, doesn't it? Except it completely skirts the issue of all the devious mind-control methods BK is employing.Quote
When we're infants, we have only one way to learn: imitation. Those of us mature enough to read this blog are no longer infants. We can still benefit from learning... but we can move beyond imitation.
Byron Katie had some sort of special experience, and was able to articulate it in a way that some people find useful. That's all good. We simply need to avoid considering her infallible (like we automatically viewed our God-like parents when we were infants).
We can take whatever's useful from The Work and other teachings and teachers, and ultimately make it our own, without imitating or following anyone.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2009 09:36PM by helpme2times.
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