Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Nisargadatta, Ramana Maharshi
Posted by:
WineGuy
()
Date: January 26, 2011 11:45AM
Advaita is a very intriguing philosophy that is well misunderstood. It is at least 4000 years old and continues to gain people interested in it. It, like any spiritual discipline, is not for everybody.
Essentially, the word "Adviata" means "not two" and is meant to be a response to the Hindu theory of "Dvaita," or "duality." In Dvaita, there is the individual and then there is God, Atman. For those who follow this, the way to so-called enlightenment is "surrender to a higher power" and/or "worship." Hindus consider most Christians, Jews and Muslims as Dvaita followers. In Advaita, the theory goes that there is just "One-ness." The dualistic world is just a projection of the mind (some physicists agree!) and has no true basis, except as part of Brahman, the unified whole. It can be summed up as.... "The world is not real, God is real, God is the world." In other words, the manifest universe we think we see it is not "real." Only the unified whole is real. The unified whole is the manifest universe."
There is nothing about this philosophy that is any different than that of Christian Desert father mystics, Sufis, Taoists and some famous Zen Buddhists like Huang Po. You may not like or agree or want anything to do with this teaching, but that does not make Advaita ANY kind of cult. Carl Jung, who I see some here praise, said this of Ramana Maharshi...
"Sri Ramana is a true son of the Indian earth. He is genuine and, in addition to that, something quite phenomenal. In India he is the whitest spot in a white space. What we find in the life and teachings of Sri Ramana is the purest of India; with its breath of world-liberated and liberating humanity, it is a chant of millenniums..."
In fact, Quantum science has always been moving the direction of Advaita. This is discussed in two of the most popular quantum books out there, "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" and "The Tao of Physics." Science believes there is a theory, a "unified" theory that is the true basis for all existence and that the "separate" theories of gravity and the "apparent" reality of Newtonian Physics are actually subordinates to this Unified Theory, branches of the unified arm. Stephen Hawking calls the unified theory "the mind of God."
The top two 20th Century teachers of Advaita are, almost unanimously considered...
1. Ramana Maharshi: the absolute gold standard of gurus, his rep is expanding even though he died 59 years ago. He had no organization, took no money, charged nothing, did not claim to have any students and inspired many. He never wrote a book, although some wrote down what he said and wrote them about his talks.
2. Nisargadatta Maharaj: Died 1982, inspired many, took no money, claimed no followers, charged nothing and is very well-respected. He never wrote a book but others wrote books on his talks. "I Am That" is the starting point for him.
If Advaita seems like something worth checking out, I advise David Godman's excellent book "Be As You Are" which coordinates Ramana's (and thus Advaita's) teachings in a very helpful way.
There is a downside to Advaita. Because the teachings are quite basic and simple (simple but not easy), some people are able to make quick progress..... initially. But since Advaita is a "free for all" with no lineage, no "transmission" and few rules, there are a boatload of people who think they are enlightened and set up shop as a "teacher." They drastically simplify or flat out miss the point of Advaita and start holding satsang and retreats. The true Adviata master would never charge something for simply pointing out the obvious and universally the true masters felt that making a business out of helping people see their true nature is a sign one has more to learn. For the Advaita legends, the Truth was "self evident," so why should anyone charge for it?
Neo-Advaita, as it is often called, are mostly made up of just such people who have been caught in what is called the "Advaita Trap." Here is a list of those who I feel you need to be careful with...
Tony Parsons.... his whole point is "Enlightenment happens to no-one, therefore there is nothing you can do about it, so give up." No true Advaita teacher takes this position in regard to teaching. In fact, this could be outright dangerous.
Gangaji... talks the talk well, but her super-soft voice makes me suspicious and her husband and her group have a bit of a bad sexual scandal history.
Andrew Cohen.... when your own mother writes a book blasting you, you know you are messed up. This guy has a huge ego, completely misses the point, and often berates those who question him.
If anyone has any questions about Advaita's teachings, feel free to ask and I will answer the best I can. But not all Adviata teachers are created equal. Hope this helps some people out.
Essentially, the word "Adviata" means "not two" and is meant to be a response to the Hindu theory of "Dvaita," or "duality." In Dvaita, there is the individual and then there is God, Atman. For those who follow this, the way to so-called enlightenment is "surrender to a higher power" and/or "worship." Hindus consider most Christians, Jews and Muslims as Dvaita followers. In Advaita, the theory goes that there is just "One-ness." The dualistic world is just a projection of the mind (some physicists agree!) and has no true basis, except as part of Brahman, the unified whole. It can be summed up as.... "The world is not real, God is real, God is the world." In other words, the manifest universe we think we see it is not "real." Only the unified whole is real. The unified whole is the manifest universe."
There is nothing about this philosophy that is any different than that of Christian Desert father mystics, Sufis, Taoists and some famous Zen Buddhists like Huang Po. You may not like or agree or want anything to do with this teaching, but that does not make Advaita ANY kind of cult. Carl Jung, who I see some here praise, said this of Ramana Maharshi...
"Sri Ramana is a true son of the Indian earth. He is genuine and, in addition to that, something quite phenomenal. In India he is the whitest spot in a white space. What we find in the life and teachings of Sri Ramana is the purest of India; with its breath of world-liberated and liberating humanity, it is a chant of millenniums..."
In fact, Quantum science has always been moving the direction of Advaita. This is discussed in two of the most popular quantum books out there, "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" and "The Tao of Physics." Science believes there is a theory, a "unified" theory that is the true basis for all existence and that the "separate" theories of gravity and the "apparent" reality of Newtonian Physics are actually subordinates to this Unified Theory, branches of the unified arm. Stephen Hawking calls the unified theory "the mind of God."
The top two 20th Century teachers of Advaita are, almost unanimously considered...
1. Ramana Maharshi: the absolute gold standard of gurus, his rep is expanding even though he died 59 years ago. He had no organization, took no money, charged nothing, did not claim to have any students and inspired many. He never wrote a book, although some wrote down what he said and wrote them about his talks.
2. Nisargadatta Maharaj: Died 1982, inspired many, took no money, claimed no followers, charged nothing and is very well-respected. He never wrote a book but others wrote books on his talks. "I Am That" is the starting point for him.
If Advaita seems like something worth checking out, I advise David Godman's excellent book "Be As You Are" which coordinates Ramana's (and thus Advaita's) teachings in a very helpful way.
There is a downside to Advaita. Because the teachings are quite basic and simple (simple but not easy), some people are able to make quick progress..... initially. But since Advaita is a "free for all" with no lineage, no "transmission" and few rules, there are a boatload of people who think they are enlightened and set up shop as a "teacher." They drastically simplify or flat out miss the point of Advaita and start holding satsang and retreats. The true Adviata master would never charge something for simply pointing out the obvious and universally the true masters felt that making a business out of helping people see their true nature is a sign one has more to learn. For the Advaita legends, the Truth was "self evident," so why should anyone charge for it?
Neo-Advaita, as it is often called, are mostly made up of just such people who have been caught in what is called the "Advaita Trap." Here is a list of those who I feel you need to be careful with...
Tony Parsons.... his whole point is "Enlightenment happens to no-one, therefore there is nothing you can do about it, so give up." No true Advaita teacher takes this position in regard to teaching. In fact, this could be outright dangerous.
Gangaji... talks the talk well, but her super-soft voice makes me suspicious and her husband and her group have a bit of a bad sexual scandal history.
Andrew Cohen.... when your own mother writes a book blasting you, you know you are messed up. This guy has a huge ego, completely misses the point, and often berates those who question him.
If anyone has any questions about Advaita's teachings, feel free to ask and I will answer the best I can. But not all Adviata teachers are created equal. Hope this helps some people out.
Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Nisargadatta, Ramana Maharshi
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: January 26, 2011 10:47PM
Quote
Andrew Cohen.... when your own mother writes a book blasting you, you know you are messed up. This guy has a huge ego, completely misses the point, and often berates those who question him.
Do be aware that Eckhart Tolle has been interviewed quite often with or by Andrew Cohen, indicating a willingness to associate with someone whose trouble record is very well documented.
[www.google.com]
Quote
eckhart tolle, interview with andrew cohenAndrew Cohen: Eckhart, what is your life like? ... Eckhart Tolle: T Yhat was
true in the past, before my book The Power of Now came out. ...
[home.wanadoo.nl] - 39k - Cached - Similar pages
Dialogues with Andrew Cohen: Ken Wilber, Eckhart Tolle, Peter ...Features dialogues between spiritual teacher Andrew Cohen and an array of the
world's leading thinkers, teachers, and mystics including Ken Wilber, Eckhart
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Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: January 26, 2011 11:38PM
Quantum physics cannot prove the existence of God. FYI on American Guru, here is this from another person who co-authoried with Stephen Hawking.
In fact, Quantum science has always been moving the direction of Advaita. This is discussed in two of the most popular quantum books out there, "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" and "The Tao of Physics." Science believes there is a theory, a "unified" theory that is the true basis for all existence and that the "separate" theories of gravity and the "apparent" reality of Newtonian Physics are actually subordinates to this Unified Theory, branches of the unified arm. Stephen Hawking calls the unified theory "the mind of God."
This is classic pseudoscience. Quantum physics is based on science and science works only on hypothesis that are capable of being disproved.
[www.michaelshermer.com]
The existence or non existence of God is a topic that cannot be digested by science--its like using the wrong kind of tools to fix a car.
Whatever Hawking says about God is a matter of his own opinion as a citizen and human being.
Here is a review of Hawking and the Mind of God (Postmodern Encounters)
In fact, Quantum science has always been moving the direction of Advaita. This is discussed in two of the most popular quantum books out there, "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" and "The Tao of Physics." Science believes there is a theory, a "unified" theory that is the true basis for all existence and that the "separate" theories of gravity and the "apparent" reality of Newtonian Physics are actually subordinates to this Unified Theory, branches of the unified arm. Stephen Hawking calls the unified theory "the mind of God."
This is classic pseudoscience. Quantum physics is based on science and science works only on hypothesis that are capable of being disproved.
Quote
What I want to believe based on emotions and what I should believe based on evidence does not always coincide. And after 99 monthly columns of exploring such topics (this is Opus 100), I conclude that I’m a skeptic not because I do not want to believe but because I want to know. I believe that the truth is out there. But how can we tell the difference between what we would like to be true and what is actually true? The answer is science.
Science begins with the null hypothesis, which assumes that the claim under investigation is not true until demonstrated otherwise. The statistical standards of evidence needed to reject the null hypothesis are substantial. Ideally, in a controlled experiment, we would like to be 95 to 99 percent confident that the results were not caused by chance before we offer our provisional assent that the effect may be real. Failure to reject the null hypothesis does not make the claim false, and, conversely, rejecting the null hypothesis is not a warranty on truth. Nevertheless, the scientific method is the best tool ever devised to discriminate between true and false patterns, to distinguish between reality and fantasy, and to detect baloney.
The null hypothesis means that the burden of proof is on the person asserting a positive claim, not on the skeptics to disprove it.
[www.michaelshermer.com]
The existence or non existence of God is a topic that cannot be digested by science--its like using the wrong kind of tools to fix a car.
Whatever Hawking says about God is a matter of his own opinion as a citizen and human being.
Here is a review of Hawking and the Mind of God (Postmodern Encounters)
Quote
Stephen Hawking has achieved a unique position in contemporary culture, combining eminence in the rarefied world of theoretical physics with the popular fame usually reserved for film stars and rock musicians. Yet Hawking’s technical work is so challenging, both in its conceptual scope and in its mathematical detail, that proper understanding of its significance lies beyond the grasp of all but a few specialists. How, then, did Hawking-the-scientist become Hawking-the-icon?
Hawking’s theories often take him into intellectual territory that has traditionally been the province of religion rather than science. He acknowledges this explicitly in the closing sentence of his bestseller, 'A Brief History of Time', where he says that his ultimate aim is to ‘know the Mind of God’.
[www.amazon.com]
'Hawking and the Mind of God' examines the pseudo-religious connotations of some of the key themes of Hawking’s scientific work, and how these shed light not only on the Hawking cult itself, but also on the wider issue of how scientists represent themselves in the media.
About the Author
Peter Coles is Professor of Astrophysics at the University of Nottingham, where he works on problems connected with the origin of galaxies and large-scale structure in the universe.
Quote
I read American Guru with interest. What is presented seems well supported and rather dismaying. My involvement with Andrew Cohen was very peripheral; I’ve had no further involvement with him since giving a set of talks in London, and had no idea at the time that he was regarded as such a major guru. There is temptation in all such roles, and few can resist it. Such behavior does need to be resisted. A psychological investigation of what leads followers to become subservient to guru behavior, and what ways there are for a guru (if we need them!) to resist the temptation, would be of interest.
–George Ellis, professor of applied mathematics and co-author with Stephen Hawking, of The Large Scale Structure of Space-Time
[americanguru.net]
Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: January 26, 2011 11:42PM
Finally (yawn)....if anyone responds by saying
'You seem to be putting a lot of energy into this'
'You seem upset'
'You seem to be bothered..'
All these are standard rhetorical evasions, that everyone seems to learn in the New Age cultic mileu.
'You seem to be putting a lot of energy into this'
'You seem upset'
'You seem to be bothered..'
All these are standard rhetorical evasions, that everyone seems to learn in the New Age cultic mileu.
Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by:
WineGuy
()
Date: January 27, 2011 02:59PM
Corboy, Tolle has been interviewed by all sorts of people, but as far as I know he has not promoted Cohen and has never stated that he agrees with Cohen's ideas of "Evolutionary Enlightenment." Another way to say this is... Just because Ronald Reagan was interviewed by a liberal newpaperman, does not make Reagan a liberal.
I am not here to convince anyone here of anything. I have no need. I posted this simply so that others who read it have some alternative to the "let's lump everyone together" vibe I seem to get from this otherwise quite useful website.
Good night and good luck.
I am not here to convince anyone here of anything. I have no need. I posted this simply so that others who read it have some alternative to the "let's lump everyone together" vibe I seem to get from this otherwise quite useful website.
Good night and good luck.
Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: January 28, 2011 12:12AM
If you're happy committed to Advaita or happy with your guru, this website wont matter.
This site is skeptical and not devotional. It exists not to support or validate or mirror devotion--an inherantly unstable mood state that requires social support--this site exists to provide space and resources for a more skeptical and consumer advocate perspective.
A space for persons who are not devotees and and want to study gurus as just one more marketing phenonmenon among many.
This site is skeptical and not devotional. It exists not to support or validate or mirror devotion--an inherantly unstable mood state that requires social support--this site exists to provide space and resources for a more skeptical and consumer advocate perspective.
A space for persons who are not devotees and and want to study gurus as just one more marketing phenonmenon among many.
Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: January 28, 2011 02:15AM
Hmmm compare this from Wineguy
"There is nothing about this philosophy that is any different than that of Christian Desert father mystics, Sufis, Taoists and some famous Zen Buddhists like Huang Po"
with this Wikipedia article on Eck Tolle
"InfluencesAt the age of fifteen Tolle read several books written by the German mystic Joseph Anton Schneiderfranken, also known as Bô Yin Râ. Tolle has said he responded "very deeply" to those books.[8]
According to a 2009 article in the New York Times, Tolle is "not identified with any religion, but uses teachings from Zen Buddhism, Sufism, Hinduism and the Bible".[6] Tolle has said "I feel actually that the work I do is a coming together of the teaching 'stream', if you want to call it that, of (Jiddu) Krishnamurti and Ramana Maharshi".[8] Tolle himself has mentioned texts such as the Tao Te Ching, the Bhagavad Gita and other Hindu scriptures, the Buddhist scriptures, the Old Testament, the New Testament, and A Course in Miracles; he has mentioned various individuals such as Zoroaster, Lao Tzu, Mahavira, The Buddha, Heraclitus, Parmenides, Jesus, Marcus Aurelius, Meister Eckhart, Rumi, Hafiz, Rinzai Gigen, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Jiddu Krishnamurti, Ramana Maharshi, Barry Long, and Don Miguel Ruiz; and he has emphasised the mystical schools within religions such as Gnosticism in Christianity, Sufism in Islam, Hasidism and Kabbala in Judaism, Advaita Vedanta in Hinduism, and Zen and Dzogchen in Buddhism.[2][8][11][18][24][36]
'
[en.wikipedia.org]
It takes a lifetime to master and get deeply into any one of those traditions.
Compare with
'The sole thread that unites the denizens of the cultic milieu — true seekers ... the cultic milieu, ideas are fungible."
Fungible means equally exchangable--perennialism is a way half educated salespeople justify slushing complicated traditions together.
And if anyone takes isssue, theyre accused of being excessively intellectual and nitpicky.
What these gurus are learned about is marketing technique.
They 'live for' marketing themselves.
Search ResultsThe cultic milieu: oppositional subcultures in an age of globalization - Google Books Result
Jeffrey Kaplan, Heléne Lööw - 2002 - Body, Mind & Spirit - 353 pages
The sole thread that unites the denizens of the cultic milieu — true seekers ... the cultic milieu, ideas are fungible. Adherents of these ideas, however, ...
books.google.com/books?isbn=075910204X...
[www.google.com]
"There is nothing about this philosophy that is any different than that of Christian Desert father mystics, Sufis, Taoists and some famous Zen Buddhists like Huang Po"
with this Wikipedia article on Eck Tolle
"InfluencesAt the age of fifteen Tolle read several books written by the German mystic Joseph Anton Schneiderfranken, also known as Bô Yin Râ. Tolle has said he responded "very deeply" to those books.[8]
According to a 2009 article in the New York Times, Tolle is "not identified with any religion, but uses teachings from Zen Buddhism, Sufism, Hinduism and the Bible".[6] Tolle has said "I feel actually that the work I do is a coming together of the teaching 'stream', if you want to call it that, of (Jiddu) Krishnamurti and Ramana Maharshi".[8] Tolle himself has mentioned texts such as the Tao Te Ching, the Bhagavad Gita and other Hindu scriptures, the Buddhist scriptures, the Old Testament, the New Testament, and A Course in Miracles; he has mentioned various individuals such as Zoroaster, Lao Tzu, Mahavira, The Buddha, Heraclitus, Parmenides, Jesus, Marcus Aurelius, Meister Eckhart, Rumi, Hafiz, Rinzai Gigen, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Jiddu Krishnamurti, Ramana Maharshi, Barry Long, and Don Miguel Ruiz; and he has emphasised the mystical schools within religions such as Gnosticism in Christianity, Sufism in Islam, Hasidism and Kabbala in Judaism, Advaita Vedanta in Hinduism, and Zen and Dzogchen in Buddhism.[2][8][11][18][24][36]
'
[en.wikipedia.org]
It takes a lifetime to master and get deeply into any one of those traditions.
Compare with
'The sole thread that unites the denizens of the cultic milieu — true seekers ... the cultic milieu, ideas are fungible."
Fungible means equally exchangable--perennialism is a way half educated salespeople justify slushing complicated traditions together.
And if anyone takes isssue, theyre accused of being excessively intellectual and nitpicky.
What these gurus are learned about is marketing technique.
They 'live for' marketing themselves.
Search ResultsThe cultic milieu: oppositional subcultures in an age of globalization - Google Books Result
Jeffrey Kaplan, Heléne Lööw - 2002 - Body, Mind & Spirit - 353 pages
The sole thread that unites the denizens of the cultic milieu — true seekers ... the cultic milieu, ideas are fungible. Adherents of these ideas, however, ...
books.google.com/books?isbn=075910204X...
[www.google.com]
Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by:
WineGuy
()
Date: January 29, 2011 08:31AM
Quote
corboy
If you're happy committed to Advaita or happy with your guru, this website wont matter.
Yes, you are probably right on this.
Quote
This site is skeptical and not devotional. It exists not to support or validate or mirror devotion--an inherantly unstable mood state that requires social support--this site exists to provide space and resources for a more skeptical and consumer advocate perspective.
Sounds good to me.
Quote
'The sole thread that unites the denizens of the cultic milieu — true seekers ... the cultic milieu, ideas are fungible." Fungible means equally exchangable--perennialism is a way half educated salespeople justify slushing complicated traditions together.
Are you seriously backing your arguments from wikipedia definitions? The fact is that the teachings of many of those teachers are quite interchangeable because many of them point to the same thing. From what has been understood via interviews, Tolle did not get his so-called enlightenment via any particular teaching. And has been often MIS-interpreted, he did not get enlightened on a park bench.
Also, I see over and over again that people claim he uses "trance/hypnotism" which is completely ridiculous and has ZERO evidence. All you have is other people who have NOT seen him talk making their own interpretations based on, well, nothing.
Like I said, I have made my point and am probably done here. There appears to have developed a small group here who seem to "get off" on claiming everyone is a fake-guru. No? Name some guru here who is actually respected? None. Point made. I hope you all enjoy posting here but it seems to me some of you have made your own little cult out of being anti-cult. But to each their own. Good luck, and goodbye.
Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by:
oY0uJ1oE8s
()
Date: October 19, 2011 08:13PM
Here is how it works: You talk with a true expression - one offered by The One through such authentic non-teachers who have no students as John Wheeler, Bob Adamson, Gilbert Schultz, and John Greven. They point out the obviousness that YOU ARE and all that any book or so-called sage has EVER said is THAT is Being and THAT is inescapably what you are. And it is rigorously reaffirmed that every human IS already THAT. There is only THAT.
** I’d be careful about including Gilbert Shultz in the same sentence as Bob Adamson and John Wheeler. He seems to share the same passive/aggressive personality disorder as Charlie Hayes. Both ‘talk the talk’ but quickly result to personal abuse if their inconsistent statements are questioned. Both are shameless self promoters but Gilbert Shultz appears to be much worse in this respect.
He puts up his own Y-Tube videos, has various blogs, websites and e-books. What disturbed me was when I saw him attacking Charlie Hayes for doing exactly what he does himself. On the site:
[www.beingordinary.org]
Gilbert talks and contradicts himself on a number of occasions. When a person who knows him from Bob Adamson’s meetings points this out, he also resorts to personal insults rather than just clarifying things like Bob does.
Quote- “My personal point of view, for what it is worth…..” To toss up Charlie Hayes as an example of someone clear is absurd. He has so many props, like Ramana or whoever…he keeps changing his favourite guru week by week. He gets pissed off and runs from one ‘post’ to another like a dog marking his territory. The list of his favorite teachers is a mile long and almost everything he says is second hand, from either Bob Adamson, John Wheeler, Ramana, Nisargadatta, Liquorman and dozens of other ‘teachers’mething.” One always gets the idea that he is selling something. – Gilbert Shultz
In his description of Charlie Hayes he could well be describing himself. On his site he even reviews and praises his own books. Yet he is sniping at Charlie. All he is doing is revealing he has learnt nothing from Bob Adamson. Both Bob and John never indulge in this type of ugly personal sniping. His ‘Urban Guru Cafe’ website has 100 podcasts from various gurus alone. He also seems to have an obsession with his own image as many of his publications have him pictured wearing dark sun glasses or strumming a guitar.
Quote- “Quite a few have reported that it is the best book they have read on Non Duality. There is no nonsense to believe in it. It strips away all the spiritual nonsense that becomes such a trap for so many.” – Gilbert Shultz
On the above site he makes some absurd statements showing the cuddly Grandfather persona he uses while giving his talks hides a more sinister side.
Quote- “Almost all the gurus are charlatans” – Gilbert Shultz
So what he is saying is awareness is a charlatan as according to him everything is awareness, one without a second wasn’t it Gilbert? So who is standing outside of awareness seeing the charlatans? Pious egoist Gilbert? He cannot see how stupid his own words are. In one sweeping statement he has judged all spiritual teachers.
Quote- “The one who is free does not care” – Gilbert Shultz
For someone who doesn’t care he seem to care more than most, people have asked about his contradictions but instead of clarifying them he wants the last word and it is laced with personal put downs. Not free from the need to save face it seems.
Quote- “Nisargadatta was a simple man and had no airs about who he was. He did not tolerate kindergarten spiritual seekers who wasted time on trivial questions.” –Gilbert Shultz
How does he know? He never met him. So the man who rants that everything is a concept has created a very good one himself. What a concept! ‘Kindergarten spiritual seekers,’ as opposed to what Gilbert? ‘University graduate’ ones like yourself? What blatant hypocrisy. How would he know who Nisargadatta tolerated?
Quote- “I would rather sit and chat to ordinary folks who have not even heard of Non Duality than most of the crowd that are drawn to it.” – Gilbert Shultz
I guess that’s why he has countless books, websites and blogs where he spends an endless amount of time in meaningless conversations with his followers.
Quote- “it is kind of pathetic how superficial most folks are when it comes to understanding who or what they are.” – Gilbert Shultz
Now this is just the worst condescending statement I think I’ve ever heard. He’s now moved to insulting most of mankind. The kind of statement I’d expect from Jim Jones, David Koresh or some other psychopathic cult leader.
Quote- “Bob encourages dialog and lets everyone have their say. Many times folk just sit there, apparently not willing to ask any questions or say anything.”-Gilbert Shultz
Perhaps they’re just worried about being called ‘pathetic’ and ‘superficial’ by Gilbert……..??
I've saved the best for last.
Quote- “It is only a ME that can be offended, angry or sad. Folks just don’t get that.” – Gilbert Shultz
Yes Gilbert, we’re all so pathetic, superficial and just don’t get it. I’ll tell you something. Whatever you think you’ve got, I don’t want.
** I’d be careful about including Gilbert Shultz in the same sentence as Bob Adamson and John Wheeler. He seems to share the same passive/aggressive personality disorder as Charlie Hayes. Both ‘talk the talk’ but quickly result to personal abuse if their inconsistent statements are questioned. Both are shameless self promoters but Gilbert Shultz appears to be much worse in this respect.
He puts up his own Y-Tube videos, has various blogs, websites and e-books. What disturbed me was when I saw him attacking Charlie Hayes for doing exactly what he does himself. On the site:
[www.beingordinary.org]
Gilbert talks and contradicts himself on a number of occasions. When a person who knows him from Bob Adamson’s meetings points this out, he also resorts to personal insults rather than just clarifying things like Bob does.
Quote- “My personal point of view, for what it is worth…..” To toss up Charlie Hayes as an example of someone clear is absurd. He has so many props, like Ramana or whoever…he keeps changing his favourite guru week by week. He gets pissed off and runs from one ‘post’ to another like a dog marking his territory. The list of his favorite teachers is a mile long and almost everything he says is second hand, from either Bob Adamson, John Wheeler, Ramana, Nisargadatta, Liquorman and dozens of other ‘teachers’mething.” One always gets the idea that he is selling something. – Gilbert Shultz
In his description of Charlie Hayes he could well be describing himself. On his site he even reviews and praises his own books. Yet he is sniping at Charlie. All he is doing is revealing he has learnt nothing from Bob Adamson. Both Bob and John never indulge in this type of ugly personal sniping. His ‘Urban Guru Cafe’ website has 100 podcasts from various gurus alone. He also seems to have an obsession with his own image as many of his publications have him pictured wearing dark sun glasses or strumming a guitar.
Quote- “Quite a few have reported that it is the best book they have read on Non Duality. There is no nonsense to believe in it. It strips away all the spiritual nonsense that becomes such a trap for so many.” – Gilbert Shultz
On the above site he makes some absurd statements showing the cuddly Grandfather persona he uses while giving his talks hides a more sinister side.
Quote- “Almost all the gurus are charlatans” – Gilbert Shultz
So what he is saying is awareness is a charlatan as according to him everything is awareness, one without a second wasn’t it Gilbert? So who is standing outside of awareness seeing the charlatans? Pious egoist Gilbert? He cannot see how stupid his own words are. In one sweeping statement he has judged all spiritual teachers.
Quote- “The one who is free does not care” – Gilbert Shultz
For someone who doesn’t care he seem to care more than most, people have asked about his contradictions but instead of clarifying them he wants the last word and it is laced with personal put downs. Not free from the need to save face it seems.
Quote- “Nisargadatta was a simple man and had no airs about who he was. He did not tolerate kindergarten spiritual seekers who wasted time on trivial questions.” –Gilbert Shultz
How does he know? He never met him. So the man who rants that everything is a concept has created a very good one himself. What a concept! ‘Kindergarten spiritual seekers,’ as opposed to what Gilbert? ‘University graduate’ ones like yourself? What blatant hypocrisy. How would he know who Nisargadatta tolerated?
Quote- “I would rather sit and chat to ordinary folks who have not even heard of Non Duality than most of the crowd that are drawn to it.” – Gilbert Shultz
I guess that’s why he has countless books, websites and blogs where he spends an endless amount of time in meaningless conversations with his followers.
Quote- “it is kind of pathetic how superficial most folks are when it comes to understanding who or what they are.” – Gilbert Shultz
Now this is just the worst condescending statement I think I’ve ever heard. He’s now moved to insulting most of mankind. The kind of statement I’d expect from Jim Jones, David Koresh or some other psychopathic cult leader.
Quote- “Bob encourages dialog and lets everyone have their say. Many times folk just sit there, apparently not willing to ask any questions or say anything.”-Gilbert Shultz
Perhaps they’re just worried about being called ‘pathetic’ and ‘superficial’ by Gilbert……..??
I've saved the best for last.
Quote- “It is only a ME that can be offended, angry or sad. Folks just don’t get that.” – Gilbert Shultz
Yes Gilbert, we’re all so pathetic, superficial and just don’t get it. I’ll tell you something. Whatever you think you’ve got, I don’t want.
Re: Abuse in the Name of Advaita - Charlie Hayes et al.
Posted by:
oY0uJ1oE8s
()
Date: February 27, 2013 01:27PM
I thought I’d seen it all in terms of ego maniacs running around claiming ‘not to be a guru’ and having ‘no teaching’ but someone showed me an exchange on the ‘Urban Guru Cafe 86’ between its founder Gilbert Schultz and a person called Jean Pierre Gomez. From what I read Jean is just trying to have say, perhaps a tad overzealous but the personal attacks and sniping by Gilbert just reveal what a big ego he has. A big, brittle ego that always has to get the final word in at all times. He even takes a cheap shot at Charlie Hayes again. The internet seems infested with these people. It starts after Jean makes a number of postings in a row- bad move on a forum where Gilbert is used to lording over and having his ego stroked. Gilbert straight away starts with a put down as if this Jean guy is a deluded drug user. He urges him to keep it simple and brief- unlike his own longwinded rants.
Jesus Jean Pierre, who popped your cork? Is that all for the moment or do you want another few pages? Give it a rest JP. “Run him over with a truck” – Jesus wept. Keep it simple and brief and drop the Bullarias. Anyone who wants more of JPG, can find him on his website – he is a flute maker, so I believe. Probably makes peace pipes too. What YOU been smokin’ JP?
After Jean makes a few more comments, Gilbert just can’t help himself and has to resort to personal insults as usual.
You are clearly showing your true colors amigo. The system sometimes takes a while to post a comment. If you are a Hot Head wanting some drama, then go elsewhere. I used the word Jesus as a means of expression. No one suggested that Jesus is alive or dead. If you insist on being a drama queen you will be removed. Keep in clean and simple. We don’t need another guru here thanks. This is a guru free Cafe. If you persist in being a dork, all your comments will be removed. So where is your clarity now? Go play your flute somewhere else, if you cannot be civil and show some respect.
Of course it is a ‘guru free’ cafe! No ‘teacher’ or ‘teaching,’ only Big ego Gilbert lording over everyone supported by his fans. It goes from bad to worse. Remember Gilbert is telling this guy to keep it simple and brief. In all of his posts JPG doesn’t personally attack anybody except for the statements some people have made. He certainly doesn’t threaten anybody.
Furthermore Jean Pierre, all this drama is your own making. Truth does not tear anything apart or down. What is true is true. What is false is false. They never meet. But obviously they are mixed up in your own mind and you see devils at play where there are none. Your idle threats are indicative of an unbalanced mind. I seem to remember a drama years ago over your antics. Looks like you are still turning on the same old piece of ground. You pretend to be beyond the ‘ego’ yet you demonstrate quite clearly that you are offended by something. Then you make threats as if you are an agent of the Truth. It is ALL in your mind my friend. I am sure many will get some entertainment from you antics. My guess is that you have been ousted from all the other non duality comment sites and now you want to have your drama on this site. Stop accusing ‘people’ of symptoms that belong to YOU.
Chill out.
You pretend to be beyond the ‘ego’ yet you demonstrate quite clearly that you are offended by something. Now who is being offended? All I saw was big ego Gilbert being upset at somebody having the nerve to come on his forum and have a say. Gilbert needs to go stand in front of a mirror and repeat this statement to himself. Now it starts to all get a bit comical. Gilbert continues his tirade, remember he is accusing the other guy of exactly what he himself is doing- and he thinks the other guy is the lost soul.
Non Duality is not something to use to sort out your personal problems.
It is not a forum for arguments. If anyone has persistent anxiety over their identity and a simple inquiry into that believed in identity does not resolve the problem, then professional help may be necessary. Pretending to be a teacher is not recommended. Mental illness is a huge problem in society. Either get to the core of the problem quickly and solve it or get the required help necessary. If you suffer from depression and are on medication, have a talk to Charlie Hayes. He has been ‘through the it all’. If you follow the advice of some deluded teacher, it will not help.
Now forgive me for being confused, but wasn’t the idea of ‘self enquiry’ to investigate whether there is any separate entity with freewill and autonomy? So it now seems he is saying if you can’t see that immediately you need a professional help. What happened to the bit about ‘already being that?’ I would agree with him that ‘mental illness is a huge problem.’ He might want to look into ‘messianic complex,’ ‘narcissistic disorder’ etc. Pretending to be a ‘non-teacher’ is also a problem it seems.
Yes Jean Pierre, you have learned all the right things to say but you fly off the handle and accuse ‘people’ of things that are fictional. Admit it, you are a hot head. The last thing we need here is some hot headed ‘teacher’ going bananas and posting endless comments. I told you keep it brief and drop the abuse and the assumptions about folks you know nothing of. Go do your good works and be quiet. Save all the seekers – but maybe you can do it somewhere else – thanks.
On the one hand in many posts Gilbert acts as if he doesn’t know this Jean guy but in other posts he talks as if he does know him and attempts to paint him as a nut or drug addict.
Ralph, I don’t think so. Jean Pierre has always been a mixed bag. I am pretty sure it is he. Years ago Jean Pierre went into a tirade over someone ‘stealing’ his words and posting them on a website as their own. The funny thing was that almost all the words were word for word what he had heard when he visited Bob Adamson. It does not matter. The message can be spoken by a parrot and if it is really heard, it can bring what is necessary. Bob has been holding meetings for over 30 years and the message has been the same, more or less. It is amazing how his ‘pointings’ have found their way into the ‘teachings’ of so many contemporary teachers today. When there is true understanding, the same words may be expressed sometimes, only because they are accurate. The core of it all is the same. Much of what Jean Pierre says is correct. It is the accusations of being censored and the nonsense about him being an agent of truth that rings the alarm bells. Who cares? If JP thinks he can badge in here and throw his weight around like some new found savior, he will get trashed pretty quickly. Have a look at his website and see if he acknowledges his visit to Bob Adamson. I don’t think he does. Before he saw Bob he was a desperate seeker. Respect seems to be missing somehow. Who cares?
Once again he accuses others of the exact thing he is guilty of. How shameless is this guy? His own writings and books are full of things heard from the mouth of Ramesh Balsekar and Bob Adamson. Even after slandering this poor Jean guy, he then admits much of what he was saying is correct!! Gilbert also has an annoying habit of ending his rants with ‘who cares?’ Pretty obviously his big ego cares and feels threatened; his own words expose him as a brittle egoist. Just when I was asking myself ‘Am I the only one who sees this Gilbert guy for what he is?’ My confidence in mankind was slightly restored by the following poster who obviously knew about Gilbert and his games.
Gil says to Gomez” You pretend to be beyond the ‘ego’ yet you demonstrate quite clearly that you are offended by something.” Now there’s the pot calling the kettle black.
You get offended all the time, from day one of this website. That’s why you censor the shit out of the comments. That’s why so many people just leave and all you’re left with is ass kissers and parrots instead of open discussion. You got so offended by Scott Kiloby you kicked him and his podcast off this site. Who got offended? Ego of course. Looks like Gomez is just another half-way-there case with an axe to grind. So much for resting in pure awareness. Anyone can spout the advaita line. BEING it is something else, and rare. “If you suffer from depression and are on medication, have a talk to Charlie Hayes. ”Really? You’re going to send him to this self aggrandizer who you won’t even interview and had a big falling out with? And a guy who is charging for “consultations”. What clowns you all are. Great entertainment!! Keep it up!
Gilbert of course has to always get the last word in. As usual he uses non-too-subtle references to drug use as if Jean is a recovering drug addict. I thought there was no ‘me’ Gilbert!!
I could say a lot of stuff about this Gomez but frankly, it is so boring and it is the same old hashed up nonsense splattered with twists and turns, things that sounds almost right but you know it isn’t quite right. This is why we are fairly selective of who we interview. Non duality, from the point of view of the mind is the ultimate mind game and there appears to be many who have flipped and many others who get high on the chemical releases that mental stimulation brings. Ex-substance abuse types often get angry and argue endlessly, getting high in the rush, which is just a convenient replacement for the ‘old drug’. I have seen enough of this and can spot it a mile off. There is absolutely no point in pretending to know. Pretenders stand out like Dog’s Nuts. They protest loudly, insisting that they are genuine and true. Me thinks they protest a bit too much. These ‘teachers’ who shout that they are telling the truth are just sideshow entertainment. Who cares?
I saved the best for last and it is another quote Gilbert should repeat standing in front of the mirror using his own name instead of JPG.
JPG is a noisy protester and is desperate to be recognized as a ‘wise one’. To be sure he can express some things very clearly but the crunch is there is still a strong belief in being ‘someone’ quite obviously there and no matter how much he protests that there is not a belief in an entity, it seeps out as soon as some buttons are pushed.
Jesus Jean Pierre, who popped your cork? Is that all for the moment or do you want another few pages? Give it a rest JP. “Run him over with a truck” – Jesus wept. Keep it simple and brief and drop the Bullarias. Anyone who wants more of JPG, can find him on his website – he is a flute maker, so I believe. Probably makes peace pipes too. What YOU been smokin’ JP?
After Jean makes a few more comments, Gilbert just can’t help himself and has to resort to personal insults as usual.
You are clearly showing your true colors amigo. The system sometimes takes a while to post a comment. If you are a Hot Head wanting some drama, then go elsewhere. I used the word Jesus as a means of expression. No one suggested that Jesus is alive or dead. If you insist on being a drama queen you will be removed. Keep in clean and simple. We don’t need another guru here thanks. This is a guru free Cafe. If you persist in being a dork, all your comments will be removed. So where is your clarity now? Go play your flute somewhere else, if you cannot be civil and show some respect.
Of course it is a ‘guru free’ cafe! No ‘teacher’ or ‘teaching,’ only Big ego Gilbert lording over everyone supported by his fans. It goes from bad to worse. Remember Gilbert is telling this guy to keep it simple and brief. In all of his posts JPG doesn’t personally attack anybody except for the statements some people have made. He certainly doesn’t threaten anybody.
Furthermore Jean Pierre, all this drama is your own making. Truth does not tear anything apart or down. What is true is true. What is false is false. They never meet. But obviously they are mixed up in your own mind and you see devils at play where there are none. Your idle threats are indicative of an unbalanced mind. I seem to remember a drama years ago over your antics. Looks like you are still turning on the same old piece of ground. You pretend to be beyond the ‘ego’ yet you demonstrate quite clearly that you are offended by something. Then you make threats as if you are an agent of the Truth. It is ALL in your mind my friend. I am sure many will get some entertainment from you antics. My guess is that you have been ousted from all the other non duality comment sites and now you want to have your drama on this site. Stop accusing ‘people’ of symptoms that belong to YOU.
Chill out.
You pretend to be beyond the ‘ego’ yet you demonstrate quite clearly that you are offended by something. Now who is being offended? All I saw was big ego Gilbert being upset at somebody having the nerve to come on his forum and have a say. Gilbert needs to go stand in front of a mirror and repeat this statement to himself. Now it starts to all get a bit comical. Gilbert continues his tirade, remember he is accusing the other guy of exactly what he himself is doing- and he thinks the other guy is the lost soul.
Non Duality is not something to use to sort out your personal problems.
It is not a forum for arguments. If anyone has persistent anxiety over their identity and a simple inquiry into that believed in identity does not resolve the problem, then professional help may be necessary. Pretending to be a teacher is not recommended. Mental illness is a huge problem in society. Either get to the core of the problem quickly and solve it or get the required help necessary. If you suffer from depression and are on medication, have a talk to Charlie Hayes. He has been ‘through the it all’. If you follow the advice of some deluded teacher, it will not help.
Now forgive me for being confused, but wasn’t the idea of ‘self enquiry’ to investigate whether there is any separate entity with freewill and autonomy? So it now seems he is saying if you can’t see that immediately you need a professional help. What happened to the bit about ‘already being that?’ I would agree with him that ‘mental illness is a huge problem.’ He might want to look into ‘messianic complex,’ ‘narcissistic disorder’ etc. Pretending to be a ‘non-teacher’ is also a problem it seems.
Yes Jean Pierre, you have learned all the right things to say but you fly off the handle and accuse ‘people’ of things that are fictional. Admit it, you are a hot head. The last thing we need here is some hot headed ‘teacher’ going bananas and posting endless comments. I told you keep it brief and drop the abuse and the assumptions about folks you know nothing of. Go do your good works and be quiet. Save all the seekers – but maybe you can do it somewhere else – thanks.
On the one hand in many posts Gilbert acts as if he doesn’t know this Jean guy but in other posts he talks as if he does know him and attempts to paint him as a nut or drug addict.
Ralph, I don’t think so. Jean Pierre has always been a mixed bag. I am pretty sure it is he. Years ago Jean Pierre went into a tirade over someone ‘stealing’ his words and posting them on a website as their own. The funny thing was that almost all the words were word for word what he had heard when he visited Bob Adamson. It does not matter. The message can be spoken by a parrot and if it is really heard, it can bring what is necessary. Bob has been holding meetings for over 30 years and the message has been the same, more or less. It is amazing how his ‘pointings’ have found their way into the ‘teachings’ of so many contemporary teachers today. When there is true understanding, the same words may be expressed sometimes, only because they are accurate. The core of it all is the same. Much of what Jean Pierre says is correct. It is the accusations of being censored and the nonsense about him being an agent of truth that rings the alarm bells. Who cares? If JP thinks he can badge in here and throw his weight around like some new found savior, he will get trashed pretty quickly. Have a look at his website and see if he acknowledges his visit to Bob Adamson. I don’t think he does. Before he saw Bob he was a desperate seeker. Respect seems to be missing somehow. Who cares?
Once again he accuses others of the exact thing he is guilty of. How shameless is this guy? His own writings and books are full of things heard from the mouth of Ramesh Balsekar and Bob Adamson. Even after slandering this poor Jean guy, he then admits much of what he was saying is correct!! Gilbert also has an annoying habit of ending his rants with ‘who cares?’ Pretty obviously his big ego cares and feels threatened; his own words expose him as a brittle egoist. Just when I was asking myself ‘Am I the only one who sees this Gilbert guy for what he is?’ My confidence in mankind was slightly restored by the following poster who obviously knew about Gilbert and his games.
Gil says to Gomez” You pretend to be beyond the ‘ego’ yet you demonstrate quite clearly that you are offended by something.” Now there’s the pot calling the kettle black.
You get offended all the time, from day one of this website. That’s why you censor the shit out of the comments. That’s why so many people just leave and all you’re left with is ass kissers and parrots instead of open discussion. You got so offended by Scott Kiloby you kicked him and his podcast off this site. Who got offended? Ego of course. Looks like Gomez is just another half-way-there case with an axe to grind. So much for resting in pure awareness. Anyone can spout the advaita line. BEING it is something else, and rare. “If you suffer from depression and are on medication, have a talk to Charlie Hayes. ”Really? You’re going to send him to this self aggrandizer who you won’t even interview and had a big falling out with? And a guy who is charging for “consultations”. What clowns you all are. Great entertainment!! Keep it up!
Gilbert of course has to always get the last word in. As usual he uses non-too-subtle references to drug use as if Jean is a recovering drug addict. I thought there was no ‘me’ Gilbert!!
I could say a lot of stuff about this Gomez but frankly, it is so boring and it is the same old hashed up nonsense splattered with twists and turns, things that sounds almost right but you know it isn’t quite right. This is why we are fairly selective of who we interview. Non duality, from the point of view of the mind is the ultimate mind game and there appears to be many who have flipped and many others who get high on the chemical releases that mental stimulation brings. Ex-substance abuse types often get angry and argue endlessly, getting high in the rush, which is just a convenient replacement for the ‘old drug’. I have seen enough of this and can spot it a mile off. There is absolutely no point in pretending to know. Pretenders stand out like Dog’s Nuts. They protest loudly, insisting that they are genuine and true. Me thinks they protest a bit too much. These ‘teachers’ who shout that they are telling the truth are just sideshow entertainment. Who cares?
I saved the best for last and it is another quote Gilbert should repeat standing in front of the mirror using his own name instead of JPG.
JPG is a noisy protester and is desperate to be recognized as a ‘wise one’. To be sure he can express some things very clearly but the crunch is there is still a strong belief in being ‘someone’ quite obviously there and no matter how much he protests that there is not a belief in an entity, it seeps out as soon as some buttons are pushed.
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