Thanks all, and thanks Rob. Yes. I did find the thread. Now getting my thoughts together to post. Whew...

Yes. The whole thing was pretty disrespectful. I did have some philosophical concerns to hammer out in all this. It's true, I did make a decision not to attend sweats in general upon hearing of Lakota/Dakota/Nakota elders' wishes that "nons" refrain from having them. But in the lesbian spiritual community in general--and not only the very messed up part of it I was involved in--sweat lodges are a big thing. I really wasn't sure what to do with that.

I guess I can't go outing every non-tribal lodge there, in that community. But I do want to bring some accountability to the one that was so abusive. Especially since the leader of it now has more authority to (potentially) abuse.

Guess I just need to let other women's community members who engage in these practices struggle with their own consciences. Talk about the one I know well, and the troubles involved.

You find a great variation on spiritual activities between the North and the south. You can even find that within Nations that had to move south as a result of the Indian Removal Act. I heard a story a few years ago about a Seneca elder from New York State visiting the Seneca Nation in Oklahoma. At an event he was doing some traditional dances and ended up having a heart attack, partially because the heat was too much for him. Think of this story really makes me think of that whole area of the country not being suited for sweat lodges.

Thanks for the heads-up about the newagefraud forum. I did find it.

It think it is important to be aware that sweat lodges are not the exclusive domain of the Sioui (Lokota, Dokota, Nakota etc), and we can confirm this archaeologically. Different peoples had different ways of doing, as with everything. Since the 1960's with the rise of the Pan Indian Movement there has been an increase in conformity in things like sweat lodges or pow wow dances. From what I have seen in Nations that have a particular cultural difference to the people around them, they tend to highlight their difference and will do their particular cultural ceremonies as opposed to the unifying activities. Sweat lodges tend to be a unifying activity among the Nations that a history of doing them.

Hi Missbee I hope you don't mind me posting this link to the other post you accidentally created on this subject [forum.culteducation.com]

Mind? No. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!

Note: If you don't want to read a lot of soul-searching, skip to the last paragraph!

Hmm. Not sure that this post wouldn't be more appropriate for a journal, but I'm kind of interested in input too.

I did post in several places on the Newagefraud site. Also read some articles and many other posts. So now it's occurring to me: I really would be adding insult to injury to ask anyone in the Native community to hold this woman accountable. I did want to get all of what happened out there as a warning and a heads-up. Selfish reasons too: I'm angry and want to talk, talk, talk about this.

But I think it really falls on me to hold her accountable. I'm starting to wonder what else I can do. A part of me wants to stage a protest (one-woman, if need be) at the site of the next dance. At the same time, I don't know if I have the guts for that, and I also don't want to ruin the dance for the few Native women who do attend. (This is such a complicated situation.) I still believe the leader is a fraud, a "plastic shaman" and so are most of those involved. But there are a few Native women who do go.

I do want to do what I can to prevent her from messing up anyone else. (True, that's probably already happened, but I can't do anything about the past.) Thinking maybe to write a letter to the ed. of one of the local newspapers: Has anyone tried this in terms of outing a spiritually abusive situation? Was it effective? What were the repercussions. (Know that sounds selfish, but I'm wanting to consider that too.) I understand she could probably sue me if I named names. I mean, it's not like her kind of abuse comes with a rape kit and hard evidence. It would all be her word against mine.

Even so--I'll just ask. What kind of things have people out there done to out various spiritually abusive situations publicly?. How effective was your method, and what were the repercussions?

The point: i wonder if i've put Little Thunder back in the line of fire... (Assuming that fire exists...There definitely is controversy...)

i have no idea how to undo this.

Okay.. Not sure if the post i made before this one was rejected or is just still up for review. I'll give it another shot, though-- Frankly that one makes no sense without background...

I just walked into a fight which is really none of my business...

The sun dance in which IMO abusive sweat lodge leader was once heavily involved--and likely still is-- was begun by a woman named Beverly Little Thunder. Little Thunder--so far as i know--is unaware of the sweat lodge leader's abusive behavior i encountered.

Little Thunder is in fact Native and does in fact come from a Plains cultural background. There's a lot of controversy in some parts of the Native community, however, as to how appropriate it is for a women's sun dance to be held at all. (This isn't traditional.) The controversy is pretty heated. Little Thunder claims death threats have been made against her; one Native activist in particular has been implicated. This Native activist has denied Little Thunder's claims.

One thing remains clear: she is in the center of a large and painful controversy.

I still believe the (IMO)abusive sweat lodge leader is not authentic. I still believe that much of what was going on in her sweats was abusive. Unfortunately, i mentioned all this on the Plastic Shaman web site before I knew Little Thunder was the founder of the sun dance in question. It wouldn't be hard to trace the (IMO) abusive sweat lodge leader back to Little Thunder's sun dance.

Ouch. I don't plan to post at that site anymore. Unfortunately i suspect the damage has already been done. It's a small world. I'm afraid that what i've said may help put Little Thunder back in the center of a very painful fight.

I don't see why you would need to undue anything since you are trying solve a problem and therefore have done nothing wrong, you need to work for a solution to the original problem.