I have been taking a break for a little on this subject - I had a good clear out of my poor brain and have been "offline" for the past week or so.
I am not ashamed to admit that the whole pedophilia thing has been head-fuck for me and like the Vampire Cult I "discovered" much more than I anticipated.

I was dissapointed about Max More and the fact that he thinks that he has done enough to deal with the matter - contary to what you may think I am not really in contact with him and I don't really know if he intends to deal with the Lucifer matter or not. We have swapped a few e-mails and I think that he believes that I am in contact with larry johnson or that he is "feeding me" information. This is wrong - In fact I would LOVE to talk to Larry johnson but as we all know he is Gagged and Bound by the Alcor Court Case and even if he did contact me I would tell him not too. The court Case and his Evidence are too important to risk talking to a caustic cryonics critic like me.
Anyways I just wanted to say that although I have been in e-mail contact on the Peadophilia article the conversations I have been having with Mr More are more like two duelling swordsmen - thrusting, parrying and trying to see each other weaknesses. I wouldn;t be suprised to get some kind of legal threat over cryonics factsheet website from Max or Alcor in the not so distant future being as they are so fond of squandering their members money on SLAPP's.

I feel a lot more rational these days and I am taking AC's advice on setting myself set times to do my "cult busting investigations" and setting alarm clock if I feel I am getting obsessive. I think I have been wasting a lot of energy trying to be understanding and even perversly be liked by the people I have been critizing. I gotta hand it to Mike F and his manifesto - that was a big wake up call - the cryoncists see this as a "war" on their beliefs and the vieled death threats by Mark Plus show me how looney they really are about the subject.

Satanism is a BIG part of cryonics - whether the more rational cryonicists (and critics) accept this is another matter. But the guys running the non-for-profit organisations are all seemingly into satanism - be it philisophically accepting or being warlocks and Vampires. I didnt want to believe it myself but after looking back through the evidence with fresher eyes after a weeks rest - Its a a BIG part of it and it needs investigating properly.

The subject of this thread is Cryonics, Cult Movement or Ligit Science???

I think we have proved its definitly not science - :)

ACS is one of the oldest cryonics firms and Edgar Swank has been shown he was once in the church of satan - It is my belief he got Amanda Belvins involved in Satanism as well and used her to promote cryonics to satanists and others through Myspace.

Cryonics Institute has George C Smith who DELIBRATLY set up the Temple of Vampire Cult to promote cryonics as a religion and wrote articles on the cryonics UK website about it.: [www.cryonics.uk.com] and [www.meetup.com] I also think that Ben Best and others in the CI organisation are more than a little aware of this.

Cryonics UK and Eucrio are "managed" by David Styles who has come out and admitted his involvement as a adept in ToV and his Warlock Status with Church of Satan.

Alcor used to be the ALCORIANS which was blatently a cult back when it was started in the late 60's by the Chamberlains and possibly Saul Kent.- A bit before my time but from what I an gather some kind of sci-fi cult which believed that they had the only "ticket to the future". I am sure you are aware of how much Alcor has cleaned up even so far as removing the "1st life cycle" plaques on the wall recently. But its still just a front for the Alcorian Cult an no amount of arm waving by Max more or Aubrey De Grey or even Ray Kurzweil is going to change that. Alcorian "sceince" is virtually unchanged since the days of nytroglycerol and dry ice. So much for the whole accelerated technology myths. You would think these transhumanist sympathisers should practice what they preach! Alcor is stuck in 1974 science ideas and using badly designed DIY kit for $200K a throw. I think that they literally worship the cryonics technology - it takes technophiliacism to a extreme that even the paleolithic's fire worshippers could understand better than me.

Venturism used to be the Church of Venturism and as far as I can tell Mike Perry is still their "eunnuch minister" who can perform weddings and other ceromonys. The whole "religous" right to refuse autopsys is just like the Jehova's witnesses who refuse transfusions on religous grounds. Though I must say that I think that on the whole its not a big religous thing - just likeminded survivalists gathering for Mike Perry and David Pizers future storys round the campfire. If anything its a failed religion as most venturist cryonics are too smart arsed and invididualist to even get together properly. The story goes that the Mormon Kid who lived with them (john Grigg) eventually got physically assaulted and is no longer with them either.

The other side of it is of course the whole "self-help" group mentality of the stand by services - instead of hiring professionals to do it - they train themselves and members are expected to come to meetings and learn perfusion techniques. We could argue that it is a "normalizing" technique which is quite common in cults or that practising stand by has become communion for believers of cryonics.


To summarize - I think some people DO treat cryonics as a religion - after all isn't the promise of an afterlife pretty much core to all cults. I am also aware that there are some level headed people within the cryonics community who find that unsettling. But generally once most people have a cryonics contract they BELIEVE in it and start forming wierd belief systems around it.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2011 08:18AM by richiekgb.

As "requested" Max More responds to the accusations of Satanism - I have not edited anything he said so you can see that hes quite confrontational about the recent accusations and seems genuinely pissed off that people think hes a peadophile warlock! I didnt like the way he implys that users here are being dishonest . I think we have looked at the evidence and made conclusions which may or not be true but for my money that doesnt mean we are dishonest. Its like he assumes we know all his work and are only picking on his most controversial stuff to discredit him. I still think he writes a lot of stuff for shock value and to prove he is open minded. He reminds me of a Libertarian Non-Smoker who keeps ashtrays on his coffee table rather than ask you to smoke in his garden because he actually hates the smell.

I asked him if it was OK to repost this for him from a e-mail he sent me and he said yes - he also said he would of posted it himself but he claims he doesnt have the time to get involved with our debate.

Anyways - make of it what you will - I would be interested to find out what people think of this myself.



To XXXXXXX

I haven't been able to make the time to reply to your last email or two, and I'll be traveling tomorrow. A quick note:

You seem to see Satanists everywhere in cryonics. Apparently at least one cryonicist may really be a Satanist (David Stiles), and possibly one or two others (I really don't know about them). To give the impression that they constitute a significant number, however, seems to me completely unsupportable.

Anyone implying that *I* am a Satanist (as some people most certainly have done on your blog) is not only wrong but blatantly so.

For the record, for those who don't know me, I will state: I have had no religious beliefs whatsoever since I was about 15. Between the ages of about 11 and 15, I went through several phases, exploring Christian beliefs, reincarnation, and other belief systems. By 15 or so, I could no longer believe any religions.

The *only* "evidence" anyone can point to in my case for supposed Satanism is my metaphorical article "In Praise of the Devil". But they could only do that by ignoring what I actually wrote -- and then repeated at the end of the piece. I said:

"I must first make it clear that I am not here claiming ontological status for the Devil; that is, I am not claiming that he exists in the sense that you and I exist. I am quite serious on a symbolic level in what I write but my statements praising the Devil and attacking Christianity, God, and Jesus are not to taken as implying the real existence of any of these supposed beings."

"My praise of the Devil is not entirely (though it is mostly) serious, and it is to be taken on a purely symbolic level."

I emphasized the name "Lucifer" and not "Satan" for very explicit reasons:

"'Lucifer' means 'light-bringer' and this should begin to clue us in to his symbolic importance."

"Lucifer is the embodiment of reason, of intelligence, of critical thought. He stands against the dogma of God and all other dogmas. He stands for the exploration of new ideas and new perspectives in the pursuit of truth."

Again, in an endnote, I wrote:

"2. For those readers who don’t read the beginning, or else don’t read carefully, I will reiterate this: I do not believe that the Devil (or Lucifer) exists. I take Lucifer merely as a symbol of rationality and independent thought. Since I don’t believe that Lucifer exists, I am not calling for a new religion of Lucifer-worship, or following of Lucifer. By "praise Lucifer" I was only intending a tongue-in-the-cheek way of calling for a questioning of dogma, an affirmation of rationality and independent thinking. Following, obeying, and worshipping are not part of my own philosophy of life."

And:

"3. I’m amazed at the number of people who seem to think I’m a Satanist. If you are a Satanist, please don’t write to me in support. I find Satanism even more silly than Christianity. The former includes most of the irrational beliefs of the latter, but adds an adolescent need to rebel or shock." "

Of course, some dishonest people on your forum will say something like: "Oh, but he was lying then and lying now. He really believes, despite consistently saying he doesn't." Such a response would not only contradict everything I've ever written in that area, but also contradicts my extensive and public advocacy of rationalism and opposition to faith and worship. (See, as just example, my talk/paper on Pancritical Rationalism.)
Sadly, most those who are driven to attacking cryonics or me will are *not* committed to rational or reasonably thought, and will simply ignore all this.

Max

I don't give two hoots what Max More believes or doesn't believe, or his defence as a rational and reasonable thinker--just so much intellectual arrogance, IMO, but I still stand by my comment on first reading his treatises on the coercion of chidren into sex with adults and his praise of the Devil which is mostly serious:

'I notice that Max More includes a plug for a book by George C Smith, registered mental health professional aka Nemo of the Temple of the Vampire pyramid scheme, on his promo page for Lucifer.
Such an incestuous lot of scammers.'

Its interesting the lack of maturity and lack of common sense that is on display by Max More.
There is also an obvious lack of intellectual honesty.

But for any adult living in the real world, they know that what you say and what you write matters.
A person can be an atheist, but you don't try to ram your atheism down everyone's throats, unless you WANT to get blowback, its called being an arrogant jerkwad or worse. Same with a religion, or a sect or cult. Any mature adult must know that if you choose to attack people's core beliefs, like their religion, they are going to get upset at you.
So then its pretty pathetic to start crying that others are criticizing you, when you are attacking their core beliefs!
Its like a spoiled self-centered teenager.

So for Max More to go out there and write these types of articles, then cry that he's being misunderstood, its PATHETIC.
He made the choice to write an article "In Praise Of The Devil" posted on the joy of Lucifer website [www.lucifer.com] and again, he's the one who wrote it, right? (even though the author's name is removed).
But check it out, he could get that article taken down in minutes, as one assumes its his copyright. But he chooses to leave "In Praise Of The Devil" up on the Lucifer.com website, but to have his NAME REMOVED!!
How much sense does that make? Why do that? They say its about death threats, but is that the truth?

Why write an article, called in praise of the devil, where Satan is praised in the first line, and have it posted on a Lucifer website, and then complain that fundamentalist religionists in America are going to get angry at you? Who is the dummy in that scenario?
Check out the 1998 Postscript [www.lucifer.com] where he says he's AMAZED the number of people who think he's a Satanist! For real, that is a borderline delusional belief, where again he is BLAMING THE PUBLIC, for his own lack of communication skills, or lack of intellectual honesty.
First line QUOTE: "This article is written in praise of Satan, Lucifer, the Devil, or whatever you want to call him."
Then he's AMAZED that people think he is in praise of Satan as a non-material concept! He was apparently saying the same thing in 1998 as 2011, and still is AMAZED that praising Satan/Devil makes people think you might be a Satanist.
It really makes no sense.

Its the same pattern as the other article about pedophilia, trying to BLAME OTHERS for reading the text of the article.
The arrogance fills the entire room, its like some ego-bloated prof at a community college mumbling in the corner, and railing against the world for not understanding his unreadable Manifesto.
But its worse, trying to have it both ways.

If he thinks that the public internet won't follow orders, as its not like a graduate school class with 3 people in it, then how is he going to face the mainstream media?
Who's fault is it, if someone is a horrible public communicator?
Look in the mirror.

And if this person had a SHRED of intellectual honesty, they would point out that in fact the stuff about "creating values" near the end [www.lucifer.com] is just a copy of some material from Nietzsche. Why doesn't he just admit he was (badly) copying the style and content of Nietzsche, instead of trying to pass it off as his idea?


And this stuff about not "really" believing in Lucifer/Satan, blah blah..it actually sounds exactly like the apologetics of the weird sect called Desteni. [forum.culteducation.com] Desteni talks about Lizard Aliens/Hitler from other dimensions or whatever, but if you ask them if they believe in them, they say they DON'T beLIEve in Lizard Aliens/Hitler...they don't beLIEve in any of it.

And down the cultish rabbit hole you go.
Its the oldest trick in the book.
You set up a belief system, then claim to not REALLY believe in the belief system, its just a mental construct.
Notice that basically every sophisticated cultish leader does this to people. The technical term is a mindfuck.

It seems the choice of the cryonics company for their new leader was a perfect match in terms of mentality.
If ya can't dazzle them with deceit, bamboozle 'em with bullshit.

[cryomedical.blogspot.com]
It looks like Melody Maxim has taken her blog Cryonics Meets Medicine out of the general public, and into a more closed blog.
That is very unfortunate, as it looks like the text of the blog will not be indexed anymore by the search engines, and thus those who are casually interested in cryonics won't be able to access that important source of objective information.
Its the newbies to cryonics who are the ones most in need of factual information about cryonics, unlike the PR-spin and propaganda coming from the cryonics companies.

Why the connection with cryonics and some form of Satanism?
The most logical explanation is very basic. The basic belief of the Satanists seems to go far beyond generic atheism, into a system of beliefs that says they can do whatever they want, Greed Is Good, there is no such thing as morality, etc.
So its a very convenient Belief System, if you want to spend your life deceiving and ripping people off, and using them.

When Ayn Rand is not enough, they move into "Satanism". It seems they basically believe they can do anything they want to other people, including systematically deceive them with lies, and if people are naive or dumb enough to get scammed and used, then they deserve what they get.

Its the same belief system, but with a different name, used by guys like Wernerd Erhard from EST and Landmark.
(Ben Best apparently took that?)
[forum.culteducation.com] QUOTE Ben Best: "I lived in a co-operative house with about 25 people and I aggressively participated in the Human Potential Movement, particularly Cold Mountain Institute (the Esalen of Canada) and EST."

Basically, Werner Erhard reframed the word "Integrity" to mean the opposite of what normal people think it means.

Werner Erhard on Integrity, Morality, Ethics, Legality
[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote:
"independent of normative value judgments. Integrity is thus not about good or bad, or right or wrong, or even about what should be or what should not be." [forum.culteducation.com]

So its the opposite even of modern "atheism" that thinks that moral values might be genetically encoded in human behavior, like biological altruism. [plato.stanford.edu]

Notice how those ideas totally conflict with the ridiculous diatribe above on In Praise of the Devil.


The bottom line is that these "Satanist" and Vampire cryonics people are looking for an excuse to be able to lie, cheat, manipulate and use others, and feel no guilt, and feel good about it. There are plenty of people who do feel good abusing others for their own advantage, read this website for about a thousand examples of it.

@ Stoic - Thanks for reminder about George C Smith and lucifer.com - I will add that to my communications to max - :)

Currently we are arguing about the cult connections he says he doesn't believe it but it looks like hes involved.

I have to admit to taking a almost peverse pleasure in watching him squirm around trying to explain his more extreme views as rational. Funny you should mention old EST again because Max More also told me that he went to "The Forum" once with freinds and that he was the only person who didnt sign up. He was making a point about understanding Cults from first person experience but maybe theres a hint there to something more than just that.

I did a wayback machine pull of David Styles is old Linguascelesta Page - Its very reaveling at what Satanic beliefs and people really are if they are honest.

[docs.google.com]#

Selected Quotes

"
* Avarice motivates Linguascelesta because he always wants more. Give him the world, and he'd still want more resources with which to play. Since he was old enough to understand the concept of money, he wanted to be rich enough to buy anything he wanted, without needing to work any more if he didn't want to. Then, he was gathering dreams. Now, he's gathering ideas, and beginning to act upon some of them.

* Lust motivates Linguascelesta because he knows if he wants to satiate all his carnal desires, he'll need to have more to bring to the table. Sure, his seduction skills are renowned, and he has achieved much in this field, and gets more or less what he wants with more or less any person with whom he wants it. But "more or less" isn't good enough, and Linguascelesta always wants better. Incidentally, if you're a good looking and very submissive female, between five and six thirty on the clock, looking for a lowly life of servitude (sexual and domestic), then Linguascelesta may have a position for you sometime soon.

Linguascelesta's occupation changes so frequently as to make putting it here an invitation to more work in having to update this section so regularly.
Linguascelesta is somewhat mercenary in his work situation, and will always ditch something for something better, if a better thing comes along. He also has trouble making his mind up regarding what constitutes a good thing in one's working environment, and changes career tracks pretty frequently as a result."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2011 04:43AM by richiekgb.

That Villainous Tongue--- up himself, much?
I doubt the Para's had much time for him, if they ever saw him that is--they have their own traditions that would have sorted this wee boy out.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2011 05:04AM by Stoic.

That is some incredibly vile material from Linguascelesta.
But there you have it.
Greed is good, avarice is good. More is better. (who else is motivated by MORE so much so he changed his last name to More?)

And there again, you have the sexual abuse patterns, like one sees time and time again in these sects and groups, and those who want to lead those groups. The desire for the abuse of power over other people, is what motivates them, and what drives them.
No, they are not ashamed of how they take advantage and use other people, they are proud of it. It makes them feel superior.
No, they are not ashamed of telling brazen lies, to them its all part of the game.

And they jump from SCAM to SCAM, as stated by Linguascelesta, with a mercenary attitude.
And when cryonics opens up, they see a sweet scam in play, that could bring them hundreds of thousands, so they give it a go, and see if they can sell it. If it doesn't work, then they move onto the next scam.

Even in just those 3 paragraphs, you see the basic patterns of many of these Gurus.
Greed for more money taken ruthlessly from other people, sexual exploitation of other people for their own purposes, and jumping from scam to scam, if the grass looks greener.

Once one has studied these patterns for a while, its not too hard to smell a rat.