Well said melmax. Send me a private message notifying me of any meetings that will be held regarding the regulation of cryonics. I have several interested.

Amongst the many claims Alcor Life Extension Foundation has made against Larry Johnson, et. al. have been allegations of transgressions regarding what Alcor claims are "trade secrets." Two of these claims concern their "secret" formulations, and a cephalic isolation box, neither of which were described in much detail, in Johnson's 2009 book.

According to this article, Alcor only began using their most recent "top secret" formula, (which doesn't appear to be a secret, at all), in 2005, (two years after Johnson resigned from Alcor). The same article includes recipes for Alcor's solutions, and also links to the recipes on Alcor's own website. (Johnson did not include ANY recipes in his book, as I recall.) I suppose 21CM's "X-1000" and Z-1000" ice blockers, which are ingredients in Alcor's solutions, might be "secret," but those would be 21CM's secrets, not Alcor's. I doubt Larry Johnson has a clue as to what those substances are, and he certainly did not reveal their formulations, in his book.

As for the cephalic isolation box, scroll down on this page, to Figure 15, for what appears to be a nicely-labeled photo of this "top secret" device. I don't believe this device has ever been much of a secret, and many who have toured the Alcor facility have probably had a good look at it.

How many of the "secrets" Alcor wants to keep can truly be classified as "trade secrets," and did Mr. Johnson violate any of those secrets? I hope a jury will have the opportunity to rule on Alcor's claims, in the not-too-distant future.

[articles.boston.com]

On February 10, 2012, Alcor announced their "lawsuits against Larry Johnson have been ended by his bankruptcy and various concessions." [www.alcor.org] In other words, Johnson filed bankruptcy and Alcor, knowing they would never get a dime from him, entered into a settlement agreement with him. Johnson did issue a statement, which can be seen at the above link. Personally, I think it was a very meager "concession," (if it can even be called that), and Mr. Johnson was doing what little he needed to do, in order to extract himself from a very lengthy, and no doubt expensive, legal situation.

Contrary to what some Alcor supporters are claiming on the Internet, Mr. Johnson has not been proven to be "a liar," and the contents of the book have not been proven to be false, (nor have they been proven to be true). Judging by recent court documents, Vanguard Press appears to be determined to continue the court battle with Alcor. It would be interesting, to see the case go to trial, but I believe the majority of civil suits end in settlement or abandonment, and I don't expect this to be one of the exceptions.

Transhumanism is a mental illness in general terms, as far as I'm concerned. I've never heard a single Transhumanist speaker, who I didn't almost immediately regard as insane.

There are a lot of sick people in science, unfortunately; and they simply need to be banned from engaging in any further research. Cartesian mechanism is a slippery slope; once you adopt the initial elements of it, it's all downhill from there, and you can justify treating all forms of life purely as machines.

.

I've read through this thread as someone with a longterm interest in cryonics only just getting signed up fairly recently and reading up on all the criticism I can find to be sure i'm doing the right thing and would like to offer my comments.

I see a few points that appear utterly wrong but will focus on a small selection of them:

1 - the hostile relatives angle

I find it crazy how people can claim this to be a myth while at the same time referencing the orville richardson case - just one example of where relatives outright said they would have nothing to do with cryonics and sabotaged things. Some people do this out of greed (trying to get hold of the money), some people do this out of horror over the concept of cryonics itself (I don't understand this myself but I can see that it does freak people out), but it does actually happen.

There are a few solutions to the hostile relatives problem, including giving lasting power of attorney to someone you trust to carry out your wishes. Naturally this does carry the risk of conflict of interest if that person is a member of staff or officer of the cryonics organisation and to my knowledge neither Alcor or CI suggest or encourage this, instead the usual suggestion is to find a trustworthy friend or find a relative who is NOT hostile. Personally I intend to use a professional from a law firm as I do not want to rely upon friends or relatives who may be incapcitated by grief or who may be pressured into doing the normal thing.

I am signing up with Alcor, and nobody at Alcor tried to pressure me into giving power of attorney to them - though if you believe Alcor to be an evil cult then you probably expect they will push this later once i'm in the door, despite other members i've spoken to who have all either not got power of attorney setup or who have given it to trustworthy friends or relatives.

2 - the suing of families

Related to the above, I find it hilarious that anyone would try to warn off potential Alcor members by pointing to their lawsuits against families who interfere with a member's arrangements.

As I will be unable to defend myself after my legal death I find it comforting that Alcor have a reputation for defending their member's arrangements so strongly.

The claim on this thread is "they're only in it for the money" and such lawsuits occur to get hold of the money, presumably while cackling with evil laughter. Of course, the other motivation could be to do their best to perform their duties under the contracts members sign and to try and save lives without also screwing up the finances of the organisation.

One crazy myth i've read is that somehow if you only write to Alcor or another cryonics organisation for an information pack they'll come after your family after your death and sue to get the money, despite this NEVER happening. Find me an example of someone whose family was sued without that person having made active arrangements, i'm betting you won't find one.

3 - The "complex contracts"

I know i'm just an anonymous person and so my word can't be taken at face value and I respect healthy skepticism, but I promise that the contract I signed with Alcor was just a copy of the one available on their website with my details put in the relevant sections. I read through it all (yes, really) and so did my lawyer who's dealing with my will and estate and it doesn't appear to be deceptive in any way. In fact, the bulk of it is disclaimers and there's a clause making Alcor pay out a $1000 penalty plus the entire amount of cryopreservation funding to the member's estate if they fail to suspend the member out of neglect. There are also provisions for relatives to be present (if they request it) to observe the actual suspension.

The actual contract is here - [alcor.org]

There are other documents too, including a consent form and UAGA form etc, all available on the public website. If you point out actual clauses in this document that make Alcor an evil cult i'd be grateful.

Lots of posts here have requested someone post the actual contract and said it's suspicious nobody signed up is willing to do so - personally I won't either because the only extra information you'll get from my copy that you won't find online is my full name and address and that of my two witnesses.

4 - The irrevocable trusts

Well, first of all if you have an insurance policy in trust you can always get out of it by simply refusing to pay the premiums, the policy will then lapse and the trust will be unfunded. If the trust is funded with cash then of course you may have a problem if you intend to cancel your arrangements.

Of course if you use Alcor's model trust document, it's not irrevocable and can be cancelled any time with 30 days notice.

If you DO setup an irrevocable trust (and again, show me the evidence that Alcor or anyone else is "upselling" these trusts) then it will of course be something you should put a lot of thought into and be near impossible to get out of by design. But again, is there any evidence of vulnerable elderly people being pushed into signing such trust documents? Any at all?

5 - The associations with Satanism and ToV

Quite honestly, I don't personally see this as a big deal, cryonics attracts a lot of nonconformist types and I imagine there's probably people signed up into all sorts of weird stuff. If the ToV requires a cryonics contract then that does not automatically mean there's some kind of "kickback" going on - if there's evidence of such kickbacks happening show it - nor does it mean that the cryonics organisations are actively involved in the ToV. I will concede that it's a nasty association and bad for the public image of cryonics though, but it does not mean that those working in cryonics organisations are a bunch of scammers.

I will state that I was disappointed at the EUCrio mess, that did look like an actual case of fraud but I am not one to presume malice rather than incompetence and will not jump to that conclusion.

As it stands, I firmly believe that I made the right decision in signing up with Alcor but I do worry that even if the technology is developed for revival it won't be of much use if patients (yes, patients - someone being actively cared for with the intention of saving their life using medical technology is a patient, not a corpse) are thawed out before then due to overzealous anti-cult types who have gotten the wrong impression.

If you want to fight dangerous cults then go to organisations that do real harm to people's lives, Alcor is only doing the most they can with current technology and resources to preserve the physical basis of people's minds (dendrite structure of the brain - which is preserved fairly well by vitrification). I know that cryonics is a long shot, as do many who are signed up, but I also know that the only other alternative in many cases is certain death. I do not think of this in terms of pascal's wager either as there are good scientific reasons to believe that today's cryonics procedures preserve the information content of the human brain in a form that is feasible to repair at some point.

Ask a cryobiologist (without saying why - avoid the social issues) if vitrified neurons retain LTP (Long Term Potentiation).

Then ask a neuroscientist if LTP is responsible for encoding our memory and personality, again without saying why.

Both will, if they agree with the mainstream consensus, say yes.

Putting 2 and 2 together, it seems cryonics does in fact preserve the physical basis of memory when carried out under ideal conditions, with less ideal cases meaning more risk of amnesia. Cryonics basically turns lack of heartbeat from a prognosis of certain death into a spectrum ranging from "full health and memory" down to "amnesiac clone" with various types of memory loss in between. I fully expect that if revived after cryostasis in the future I will be missing some memories, that's still better to me than death.

Since cryogenic temperatures preserve tissue unchanged for thousands, or even millions, of years the issue is just whether the organisation storing patients can stick around until technology is up to the task of revival. My concern is that organisations like Alcor will not even last decades if those who view cryonics as just an evil cult get the government to regulate in a way that effectively shuts them down.

I would be all for a sane set of regulations based on a true understanding of cryonics, but since most of the people calling for cryonics-specific regulation take views similar to those expressed on this forum the idea of regulation scares the hell out of me.

Ciphergoth is that you?

:)

Well cryonicist whoever you are - I am only responding as I checked an old e-mail account I had and this message flashed up. This is what you call a "ghost thread" - meaning its a very old thread that no-one posts in anymore. You have gone to a lot of effort so Its only fair you get a answer from one of the people you hoped you would address.

Just so you know finding out the ToV stuff, child abuse, Mike Darwin, that freak cutting off his own penis, whatshisname freezing his own mum and Cryogirl abusing her stepchild and all the other f***ed up sh*t which the cryonics cult are dipped in just gave me nightmares in the end! These days I keep well away from it and am much happier as it was becoming a bit of a weird obsession for me after a while and i was worried I would turn into some kind of crank! You say its a shame all that stuff about ToV and Eucrio was true and did end up being a scam. But if you read any of old lingacelestas (david styles) websites you would see he was a scammer/exploiter long before he got involved in cryonics.

At the end of the day if you want to turn yourself into a very expensive corpsical by Mike Darwin or one of his crazy colleagues its your lookout. But its a very weird thing to do and totally selfish. You would be better off using that money to support your bereaved family or if single (why not) donate your estate to a charity that builds wells in africa or some other cool stuff? What I mean is what makes "you" so special out of 7 billion people that you should be preserved for some stupidly small chance of future revival just because you can afford it (or can get a life insurance policy to pay for it).

Who cares honestly if a cryobiologist thinks vitrified neurons retain LTP or whatever? Let me tell you who really cares - NOBODY! You cryonics fanatics/cultists are all for providing what you think are rational arguments for cryonic suspension. This is part of the way you deal with your choices which make no sense to the 99.99999% of the world that does not give a damn as they need food, shelter etc. This Cult Education forum is hardly the place to attempt to start a meaningful debate on the "science" of cryonics on a ghost thread. People here are only really interested in is it a cult or "legit science" and the conclusion we made if I may be so bold is that its pretty damn culty and theres plenty of exploitation should you care to uncover it.

Move along please nothing to see here......

richiekgb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ciphergoth is that you?
>
> :)

I am not Ciphergoth

> Well cryonicist whoever you are - I am only
> responding as I checked an old e-mail account I
> had and this message flashed up. This is what you
> call a "ghost thread" - meaning its a very old
> thread that no-one posts in anymore. You have gone
> to a lot of effort so Its only fair you get a
> answer from one of the people you hoped you would
> address.

Many thanks for the response, despite the age of this thread it still turns up on google and I wanted to step in to defend something I believe strongly to be an ethical practice despite some of the unfortunate PR.

> Just so you know finding out the ToV stuff, child
> abuse, Mike Darwin, that freak cutting off his own
> penis, whatshisname freezing his own mum and
> Cryogirl abusing her stepchild and all the other
> f***ed up sh*t which the cryonics cult are dipped
> in just gave me nightmares in the end! These days
> I keep well away from it and am much happier as it
> was becoming a bit of a weird obsession for me
> after a while and i was worried I would turn into
> some kind of crank! You say its a shame all that
> stuff about ToV and Eucrio was true and did end up
> being a scam. But if you read any of old
> lingacelestas (david styles) websites you would
> see he was a scammer/exploiter long before he got
> involved in cryonics.

I don't care one way or the other about ToV aside from the obvious PR angle. I was disappointed in Eucrio, but there were warning signs when it first launched and I was deeply skeptical. Cryonics UK strikes me as legit despite the involvement of styles, I am aware of at least one case they've been involved in and the patient got a standby and got shipped to the US in decent condition.

> At the end of the day if you want to turn yourself
> into a very expensive corpsical by Mike Darwin or
> one of his crazy colleagues its your lookout. But
> its a very weird thing to do and totally selfish.
> You would be better off using that money to
> support your bereaved family or if single (why
> not) donate your estate to a charity that builds
> wells in africa or some other cool stuff?

Mike Darwin no longer works for Alcor :)

I am aware that cryonics is weird, but that is not a rational reason to avoid signing up.
My life insurance is setup such that my family also gets a decent payout UNLESS they do anything to interfere with my arrangements - i've explained this to them and they understood the reason for having such a setup. I would not be better off if I left all the insurance proceeds to my family though, because without cryonics i'd end up permanently destroyed.

As for being selfish, well i've spent large sums of money on a bigscreen TV, games consoles, movies, concerts, nice meals etc - my entertainment budget is more than my life insurance premiums and Alcor dues - yet nobody ever says that i'm being too selfish with that. I do also give to charity from time to time when i've got some extra cash and there's a fundraiser going on, but I don't believe that it's immoral to spend my own money on something which could possibly save my life.

If it's immoral to spend my own money on cryonics due to it being "selfish" and I should spend it on charity instead, I have to ask if you yourself spend any money on stuff you don't absolutely need.


> What I
> mean is what makes "you" so special out of 7
> billion people that you should be preserved for
> some stupidly small chance of future revival just
> because you can afford it (or can get a life
> insurance policy to pay for it).

What makes me so terrible that I deserve a guaranteed permanent death when there's a way to possibly avoid it?

That said, I do wish cryonics was cheaper and more people could signup for it, there's been a LOT of talk on how to get economies of scale going in order to bring down the costs.

From time to time there's also talk of using chemical fixation to preserve the brain but this is a process I personally believe is not likely to result in actual revival, it preserves the connectome of the human brain very well but in a form that it seems will be near impossible to reverse except by destructive scanning - in other words chemical fixation could be used to preserve brains for eventual scanning and uploading, but uploading is not a path towards personal survival.

There's also been talk of permafrost burial, but the evidence i've looked at myself suggests this has nearly 0 chance of preserving dendrite structure and carries with it the risk of being forgotten.

> Who cares honestly if a cryobiologist thinks
> vitrified neurons retain LTP or whatever? Let me
> tell you who really cares - NOBODY! You cryonics
> fanatics/cultists are all for providing what you
> think are rational arguments for cryonic
> suspension.

Anyone with a scientific mindset should care if LTP is preserved in vitrified neurons, because if it isn't then cryonics does not work and can correctly be labelled as false hope.

Of course, since it does preserve LTP the question becomes "is LTP sufficient to preserve the person's mind or is the mind encoded in another form that is lost in cryopreservation?"

If cryonics does preserve the physical basis of the human mind then that is in fact a rational reason to pursue it.

Should that not be a rational argument and only what I "think" to be rational then you're correct in calling me a silly cultist, but it seems VERY few criticisms of cryonics even get into the actual technical problems. Even Melody Maxim, whose criticism of some of the standby and perfusion procedures I can respect, has not addressed the actual technical problems involved at the celluar level.

With any other medical procedure you would want to know if the science behind it is solid before even looking at logistics and the reliability of the practioners.

Homeopathy for example is based on the concept of water having memory, something that is absolute nonsense. We don't need to look at the personality of the people selling homeopathic remedies at all because the basic concept behind it makes no sense and studies have found it doesn't work.

Cryonics on the other hand has actual scientific evidence proving it preserves at least partially the information content of the human brain and does so in a way that it'll last for a very long time - long enough that we can take our time figuring out the technology to reverse the process.

I actually believe that cryonics is more likely to fail due to social and political issues rather than technological issues, hence why I am concerned that organisations like Alcor are perceived as cultish - I don't want to end up having my brain removed from cryostasis and burnt or buried due to a perception that the people looking after it somehow scammed me.

> This is part of the way you deal with
> your choices which make no sense to the 99.99999%
> of the world that does not give a damn as they
> need food, shelter etc.

I don't need all my choices to match up with what the majority believe, I only need them to be rational on their own. To date i've not found any sane criticism of cryonics based on actual science - quackwatch still uses the silly mushy strawberry analogy and completely ignores vitrification, and other skeptical sources make the same error while the vast majority of criticism doesn't even look at the science.

As for the rest of the world needing food, shelter etc, I don't get what this has to do with anything unless you're coming back to the "selfish" thing again - in which case I ask you again what your entertainment budget is and if you think i'm also doing something wrong when I spend MORE than my cryonics costs on entertainment.

> This Cult Education forum
> is hardly the place to attempt to start a
> meaningful debate on the "science" of cryonics on
> a ghost thread. People here are only really
> interested in is it a cult or "legit science" and
> the conclusion we made if I may be so bold is that
> its pretty damn culty and theres plenty of
> exploitation should you care to uncover it.

You just said that people here are only really interested in whether cryonics is a cult or a legit science.... while also saying it's not the place to bring up the science.

To figure out whether something is a legit science surely requires evaluating the actual science, right?

I knew it was a mistake to post a response! You cryonicists have very similar styles of writing (must take a certain type) and I am sure I had had similar conversation with a Cryonicist called Ciphergoth back when I was very interested in this subject.

Anyway, I have been through all these arguments before 4 years ago with various cryonics fanatics/cultists and its simple: Those who have signed up or who want to get signed up have real problems with people criticizing their strange choice of burial. They just don't want to accept that their cold war era brute force engineering solution to dying has no real scientific merit as a "cure for death".

I just don't have the inclination to get into it again - I found out enough to want to keep well away from it. F**k the science in this instance your all nutty satanists/vampire/transhumanism freaks (no offence) and no amount of scientific argument will ever change that! Maybe if the people involved in cryonics preservation we not involved in so much other mumbo jumbo they would find rational scientists willing to debate with them?

Lets just leave it at that - perhaps in 25 years i will look into cryonics again when i am old and desperate but at the moment i want to be cremated in a big pink penis coffin so my relatives and freinds think i am a closet homosexual!

feel free to rip the P*ss out of my choice by all means.