Thanks for sharing your story, newone. Anticult, in another thread, makes the statement that writing out our stories and thoughts helps us to sort everything out and deprogram ourselves; I believe that.

As for the use of the word 'asleep', I find that to be probably the most blatant use of waking hypnosis I can think of. Back in the early 1960s a few of us toyed with hypnosis and using post-hypnotic suggestion, and the use of the constant repetition of the words "sleep" and "asleep" was pretty much rudimentary. I personally needed to hear that part of the story, to help me remember some of the techniques used on me in the recent past.

It's been a long time since I read Castaneda's stuff, but I'm sure that it's in there with all the other garbage that needs to be taken out. This is one hell of an undertaking, but one that absolutely needs to be done, if we are to be free from hucksters, phoney shaman, fake gurus, cults and all the other snake-oil salespeople out there. It seems that the more thoroughly we do this particular 'house-cleaning', the less likely we will be to just find ourselves hooked by the next scam.

qd

thank you quackdave. i appreciate the validation and encouragement. all 'the garbage to be taken out' is a good analogy. slow and steady...

Amen, on the 'garbage' reference. I only saw it's impact when you replied. We come upon things accidentally, during our journey out of the mire, it seems.

I might add that I put forth extreme amounts of energy deleting newage words and concepts from my thoughts, speaking and messaging. I also throw a little sarcasm in (for seasoning), like my use of the word "newage", which I prefer to think of rhyming with sewage and I type it in lower case, for good measure.

Slow, but with great determination.

qd

yes! and i take great care not to throw the baby out with all that stanky bath water.

newone:


Your comment is well taken. 'Stanky' is yet another good mental image, too.

qd

aromatherapy! :-)

deception and 'theater' and pretense are all stock and trade of these operators. castaneda called it 'stalking', the practice of assuming a persona, activity, habit, point of view, that ordinarily might be foreign, uncomfortable or even repellent to you.

for example, an ej gold co-conspirator would take delight interacting with an anti-cult person in the guise of a critic of gold's. (lg told me he learned 'stalking' from gold long before he met castaneda.)

they're very good at this sort of thing. it's sport for them. the internet is a wide open field. (on the flip side the internet gives voice to survivors and warns others--which of course the predators loathe and wish to subvert.)

the original purpose of stalking-like activities, as it was explained to me, is to diminish, detach from one's own ego, habits, attachments, etc. but what i saw and experienced is something else. i saw deception and false fronts used to manipulate, deceive, and steal what they might call 'power' or energy, from others--either opponants, recruits, or just plain ole' regular (sleeping) folk, who they want to ridicule and/or feel superior to.

having been exposed to such misrepresentations for many years, a hyper-vigilance sets in. having been duped by countless deceptions, one starts to see them where they're not, and doubt everyone and everything as being part of a giant conspiracy centered around 'ME.' paranoia and ptsd.

i learned to laugh early on when lg was playing ('stalking') people. he was showing me how 'asleep' they were. he was charming and brilliant. he looked larger than life and the 'sleepers' looked foolish. i felt 'special' to be on the inside of the joke with him. this was the begininng. i never could have imagined how devastated i would when the cruelty turned on me. (funny re-reading this because it sounds like high school.)

at the end of my relationship with lg i confronted him with the cruelty i had seen in him. it seemed particular to the ej gold strain of things. in that conversation, after i'd known him several years, he told me more about the abuse he endured at the hands of ej gold and co. than he had ever told me before. i was stunned. i said it was terrible. lg defended it 100 percent. he told me it was only 'apparent cruelty.' it was only cruel to the ego and the ego does not exist. 'people who are asleep are machines.' machines don't have real emotion, so how we treat them does not matter. he acknowledged it was difficult, but felt it was worth the pain. as we sat there talking about it, he had already helped set up how my debaucle with gold would go down. but i swear to god, in my memory he did not look me in the eye at any point in this discussion. he was hurt very much. the persecuted really do sometimes become the persecutors, as alice miller wrote about so well.

what i've learned since leaving is that 'regular' people are so easy to fool because they usually have no context from which to expect such banal cruelty. nor do 'most people' have ptsd paranoia which would lead them to scan every environment as if they might be, in any instance, punk'd. in spite of how difficult and messed up and dull 'regular' life has seemed in the years since i've been away--nothing has been more healing than the simple trust, honesty, and good will that most people function with in simple ways, without even seeming to notice, as they interact with others in the course in day-to-day life. that's what 'spiritual' means to me now. simplicity, kindness, transparency.

the integrity of this forum has been a part of that for me--and i am grateful. happy new year.

It would seem that you never related to the authentic Fourth Way of the Gurdjieff groups of the direct lineage from Madame DeSalzman on.

Wow, newone! That's great stuff. I needed to 'hear' that. I too have become hyper-vigilant, although I'm sure the pendulum will find it's middle ground eventually. Sounds as if the persecuted can become persecutees the same way that abused children often grow up to become abusers. In any case, your words are certainly cause for serious thought.

Thanks,
qd

another note: in 4th way-speak, what i am calling cruelty, might be justified as the 'administration of shocks,' deliberately administered, (i.e. enneagram) with objectivity and goodwill, for the purpose of causing even a momentary awakening in the 'sleeper.'

this is meant to replicate the way shocks and stressors in normal life can heighten our awareness and/or produce changes in us that might not occur in regular life. it sounded like a good idea at the time.

life itself, or what i believe in as god, is the only force qualified for such intervention. the hubris of assuming such godlike authority over other people, and the stupidity of people (me) who submit to it, is astonishing to me now.

i put this stuff here because i hope every day that people who are getting drawn into such webs can think to google whatever teacher and group, and find the information that will turn them away and put them safely back to the main road.