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Sandman
Thanks, Daryll. You say Desteni is not a cult, yet in all the numerous postings found on the web re: Desteni, it has frequently been referred to as a cult. The website you've provided a link to has a video on the first page called 'Cult Farm Confidential' (meaning the Desteni Farm), so someone else at Desteni describes it as a cult, even if you don't, and even if they are using that term in an ironic way.

I am the author of said video. Yes, irony is always so great.

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Sandman
Certainly, the strange ideas you describe about heaven, interdimensional portals, demons, emotional energetics, the world being evil, certain moral practices etc, are what most people would regard as belonging to a cultic belief system.

Interesting. Then you must not subscribe to the Judeo-Christian Tradition, which also states explicitly the existence of Heaven, demons, moral practices and the like. I suppose Judaism and Christianity are 'cultic' as well, by your definition.

We do not subscribe to 'beliefs' nor 'worship' of anything (except life) or anyone (including 'God,' who no one can prove exists). We recognize the Principle of Equality and Oneness. And to correct your understanding, we do not 'believe' the world is 'evil.' There is no need for 'belief' of any kind, as we can plainly see with our own eyes that the true nature of humanity is played out in every moment as self-interested, abusive destruction of each other and every living form on this planet. A planet where beings in the Likeness and Image of 'God' forces others who are equal to them, to buy their own survival. This must no longer be accepted as we are in danger of destroying ourselves forever. It is unacceptable to exist on this planet and accept the reality that people are to be victims of human slavery, child pornography and raping, war, extreme poverty and violence while others have full and imaginative lives. If you consider any of the above 'cultic,' then I would suggest another description: common sense. Because it is only common sense that the world would be a better place for everyone if all had enough.

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Sandman
And there are far more weird beliefs, ideas and practices discussed at the Desteni forum, which appears to involve a lot of disaffected youngsters.

We may have some 'weird' ideas like equal money for all, one-world government, end of animal abuse, anti-drugs, anti-booze, anti-Communist, anti-marriage, anti-slavery, anti-fascism, etc. And we do go for direct communication with the Dead, housing for everyone, self-honesty in word, deed and life, money for all and equal education for all who want it, Planned Parenthood for human and animal, and much, much more. And we like the fact the the younger set is into this, for they are the only, faint hope of this world (and we're anti-hope as well - all that sittin around, waitin). The Boomers cheaply sold their souls to the True God of this World, Money. So they are dust in the wind.

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It is also apparent that Desteni is centred around the charismatic figure of one man, Bernard Poolman. Again, there are various references made about him elsewhere on the web that suggest he is, amongst other things, a leader of sorts.

Mr. Poolman is a great guy. Very principled and set against Guruism and deification. And as it is the case for successful men, jealousy, bitterness and mendacity always follows close behind.

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So forgive me if I've jumped to any wrong conclusions, and perhaps you can set me straight, but if it walks and talks like a cult, if it smells like one, then it probably is a cult.

We venerate only Life and each other - equal and one, and we consider it to be the highest duty to be self-honest in every moment. I suppose in this world, those are quite unorthodox practices, sadly.

Oh God here we go again with the 'cult talk'. I am not here to win over anybody. What I am doing is pointing out common sense: Money and society constructs are harmful - just look at the world around you. But thenw e have come to accept these constructs because our apparent survival within the system depends on it - and that is why you wont question what causes millions to suffer each day - but will focus on 'your definition of cults'.

Interesting if Self honesty and common sense was the key to man kinds survival then the people who share the message would not be called cult members or disaffected youngsters. Why do we use words like self honesty etc? Well because look atbthe words if each person is self honest in how we participate in the world, using common sense practicality then we will all be able to find solutions for what is here.

But it fascinates me how people will sit and talk about 'language skills' amd 'mistakes on the web site' - when you actually cannot for the life of you come up with one simple solution for rape, murder, depression, demon possession, war, lack of money. So this is the full extent of your web site is to discuss language skills odf a group of people who look into the conditioning of man and practically change what we have allowed.

So you say these things are based on 'objective evidence'. Yes I am able to see all forms of controling people as cult behaviour where a certain group of peoiple benefit while many others compromise themselves, thinking they are doing what is best for themselves and humanity. Sounds familiar.

So other than having an issue with a mistake on the website, our lack of elaborate wording skills or thhe fact that we use words you dont get - what else would you like to know more about? Should we go more into 'common sense or self honesty? Or should we continue as humanity to do the opposite which is self deceit in the name of the greater system and remaining caught up in the same behaviours, same believes which serve nobody - just so that we dont have to change as humanity. Have you guys actually looked at the solution series or the design series? Have you asked yourself why humanity continues the way it does and nobody is willing to walk as the solutions?

Ask yourself this question: Look at Humanity in all it's aspects, are there practical solutions for what is here or are we all going to continue waiting for somebody to save us? If your answer is yes I have practical common sense solutions then please join us on the forum for discussions.

Many people who read the material or watch the videos dont participate at Desteni but get on with their lives, applying themselves within this world in common sense. They see where their own behaviour contributes to what is here, and they direct themselves. On the forum people sometimes pop in to share their perspectives and solutions and get the perspectives from others on whether it is practical. I would say that takes a bit of guts, not just sitting on your arse but actually participating in what is here. Perhaps some dont see that millions die and suffer so that the rest of us can eat, entertain ourselves and live in our little bubbles called self interest. Perhaps one day - all suffering will just end and we dont have to do anything. Now this point I would like to discuss.

Cheers
Andrea

Daryll, presumably you have joined this forum in order to try and reassure people that Desteni is not a cult.

I have already shown in this thread from the beginning how it is that Desteni has the hallmarks of a fledgling cult. Others agree with me, evidence can be found in various places on the web. Although you might not realise it, mostly everything you and Andrea have written here only confirms that Desteni may very well be a cult in the making.

Your efforts are counterproductive to your aims.

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Darryl Thomas
I suppose Judaism and Christianity are 'cultic' as well, by your definition.

Cultic aspects of Judaism and Christianity are documented at this forum. It is also common knowledge, but I was referring to the ideas you have described, not anyone else's.

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Darryl Thomas
We do not subscribe to 'beliefs' nor 'worship' of anything (except life) or anyone (including 'God,' who no one can prove exists). We recognize the Principle of Equality and Oneness. And to correct your understanding, we do not 'believe' the world is 'evil.' There is no need for 'belief' of any kind, as we can plainly see with our own eyes that the true nature of humanity is played out in every moment as self-interested, abusive destruction of each other and every living form on this planet.

Then you regard humanity as evil. Maybe you don't like to call it that, but that is how you speak of it.

You believe in Sunette's role as portal, which might be more of a joke than fraudulent, if it wasn't for the fact that some naive or gullible people are fooled by it. You believe it's real when it is an act. How it has developed as an act and how it is carried out exactly, I don't know, but it has been suggested by some commentators that she is speaking on behalf of Bernard Poolman and repeating information and ideas he has given her.

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Darryl Thomas
A planet where beings in the Likeness and Image of 'God' forces others who are equal to them, to buy their own survival. This must no longer be accepted as we are in danger of destroying ourselves forever. It is unacceptable to exist on this planet and accept the reality that people are to be victims of human slavery, child pornography and raping, war, extreme poverty and violence while others have full and imaginative lives. If you consider any of the above 'cultic,' then I would suggest another description: common sense. Because it is only common sense that the world would be a better place for everyone if all had enough.

There's common sense and there's Desteni-speak "common sense", as I already pointed out. It's jargon. Desteni defies all common sense.

It is quite clear from reading or viewing the Desteni material that it is founded on beliefs that are by any measure, bizarre, if not delusional. The most obvious one being the idea that Sunette is an "interdimensional portal" which would strain the credulity of even the most dedicated follower of New Age channeling.

You also believe that humankind was created by a "race of beings" called the Annunaki, a notion which has been lifted from the ancient astronaut pulp literature of hack scholar Zachariah Sitchen and from Amitakh Stanford of Xee-A Twelve ... [www.xeeatwelve.net]

But I don't need to list all your strange beliefs. You know what they are and anyone else can find out by following links in this thread. Call them something other than "beliefs", it makes no difference.

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Darryl Thomas
Mr. Poolman is a great guy. Very principled and set against Guruism and deification. And as it is the case for successful men, jealousy, bitterness and mendacity always follows close behind.

Can you tell us why Bernard Poolman seems to keep such a low profile as re: the public face of Desteni? Why aren't there any videos where we can see him talking when there are so many of Sunette and others? I mean, considering he is your main man.

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Darryl Thomas
We venerate only Life and each other - equal and one, and we consider it to be the highest duty to be self-honest in every moment. I suppose in this world, those are quite unorthodox practices, sadly.

"Equal and one" is another Desteni key phrase.

Previously, you said you venerated nothing. I fail to see how you can venerate Life and at the same time think the "true nature of humanity is played out in every moment as self-interested, abusive destruction of each other and every living form on this planet". I suppose you think the nature of humanity is not part of Life.

A lot of people regard it as important that they should be honest with themselves. You will also find that there is a very large sector of the populace who "venerate" life and others as equals. It's not a big deal. It's not something that only happens at the Desteni Cult Farm, as you call it. But once again, "self-honesty" is just another Desteni catch-phrase, so talking about having "self-honesty" in Desteni is not the same as self-honesty as it would normally be understood in common sense terms.

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Sandman
Daryll, presumably you have joined this forum in order to try and reassure people that Desteni is not a cult.

I have already shown in this thread from the beginning how it is that Desteni has the hallmarks of a fledgling cult. Others agree with me, evidence can be found in various places on the web. Although you might not realise it, mostly everything you and Andrea have written here only confirms that Desteni may very well be a cult in the making.

This is just an opinion of yours and others that share it. An opinion is not a fact nor is it an accurate account of an experience. As an opinion, it holds as much validity as a beLIEf, which is after all, just an acceptance of a statement one would like to "believe is true." I have no reason to misrepresent our points, which are specific and based on common sense. As we continue this dialogue, others may see a little of what we stand for.

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Cultic aspects of Judaism and Christianity are documented at this forum. It is also common knowledge, but I was referring to the ideas you have described, not anyone else's.

Would you not allow me to make the point that what can be 'considered cultic' is meaningless in the context of any comparable praxis, especially that of the Judeo-Christian tradition? Of course, we do not offer 'beliefs,' but common sense application that needs to be lived to be considered valid. That is where we stand. Not on 'beliefs.'

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Then you regard humanity as evil. Maybe you don't like to call it that, but that is how you speak of it.

That sounds awfully like what mainstream Christians 'believe,' doesn't it? I do have a working knowledge of the Christian Bible, and well aware of Paul's doctrine of Original Sin. The 'sinful nature' of human beings is peculiarly a Christian theological point. I haven't gone through every single thread here, and forgive the opinion if I am wrong, but I assume that this is a 'Christian'-based program here. Our point is this: the true nature of humanity is reflective as the state of humanity in its totality: slavery, poverty, exploitation, war, the abuse of children and animals and so on. We can engage in word games or agree that we see the same thing in front of our eyes: that the human being's true nature is self-interest, abuse, murder and total disregard of everything and everyone except themselves. It's common sense to realize that who you are is what you do, accept and allow, isn't it?

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You believe in Sunette's role as portal, which might be more of a joke than fraudulent, if it wasn't for the fact that some naive or gullible people are fooled by it. You believe it's real when it is an act. How it has developed as an act and how it is carried out exactly, I don't know, but it has been suggested by some commentators that she is speaking on behalf of Bernard Poolman and repeating information and ideas he has given her.

I have you at a disadvantage, Sandman. As I type this reply, Sunette is in the next room. I see her every day, I listen to what she experiences in the dimensions and I talk to the dimensional beings through the portal. I have an experience to refer to while you have only an opinion. If you were here with us and were able to test the portal for yourself, well, you might consider the possibility of changing your perspective. But we both know that's highly unlikely. The fact remains that what is real is a young woman of 23 years old with no religious background or training of any kind who can write hundreds of articles on the site and has appeared in nearly 1000 videos covering an impossibly wide range of topics and perspectives. You may believe that the simplest explanation is fraud, but the simplest explanation is that this is a real phenomena, and also indicative of the true nature of humanity in regards to the equal and one principle.

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There's common sense and there's Desteni-speak "common sense", as I already pointed out. It's jargon. Desteni defies all common sense.

Turning up the rhetoric, eh? Okay, I'll bite. Please explain how the practice of self-honesty and self-forgiveness "defies common sense."

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It is quite clear from reading or viewing the Desteni material that it is founded on beliefs that are by any measure, bizarre, if not delusional. The most obvious one being the idea that Sunette is an "interdimensional portal" which would strain the credulity of even the most dedicated follower of New Age channeling.

Yes, the "Lightworkers" are just as distressed at the message as you seem to be. Hey, lightworkers are some the most selfish creatures on this planet. They would experience an "ascension" to escape the hell of this world while leaving others behind to fend for themselves. Talk about 'delusional.' Tim LaHaye has nothing on these guys.

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You also believe that humankind was created by a "race of beings" called the Annunaki, a notion which has been lifted from the ancient astronaut pulp literature of hack scholar Zachariah Sitchen and from Amitakh Stanford of Xee-A Twelve ... [www.xeeatwelve.net]

Stanford comes close for the wrong reasons, but she hasn't realized that her information is just a corrupted remix of Zoroastrianism and Eastern Mysticism. Sitchen is more interesting. But he hasn't an inkling what the Annunaki were really all about.

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But I don't need to list all your strange beliefs. You know what they are and anyone else can find out by following links in this thread. Call them something other than "beliefs", it makes no difference.

Most of what you refer to is information, which is useless. The practice of self-honesty and self-forgiveness and upholding the principle of equal and one is what we DO. We don't play word games. We purify ourselves with the practical application thereof, which makes what we write and say real. I notice that you have been conspicuously silent on your perspective on our practice of self-honesty and self-forgiveness. Fascinating.

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Can you tell us why Bernard Poolman seems to keep such a low profile as re: the public face of Desteni? Why aren't there any videos where we can see him talking when there are so many of Sunette and others? I mean, considering he is your main man.

You know what is so typical of human nature? Making the messenger more important than the message. Bernard is far too charismatic for his own good and would have people fall all over him and make him some pop star guru like Tolle and Chopra. No thanks.

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"Equal and one" is another Desteni key phrase.

Yes. It's the cornerstone that the builders refused, lol.

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Previously, you said you venerated nothing. I fail to see how you can venerate Life and at the same time think the "true nature of humanity is played out in every moment as self-interested, abusive destruction of each other and every living form on this planet". I suppose you think the nature of humanity is not part of Life.

No, it is not. And you fail to see the common sense with my statement. If you abuse life HOW CAN YOU BE EQUAL TO IT? Assign this to any aspect in your life and prove it to yourself if it is true. You are equal to what you accept in yourself and in your world. What are you equal to if you abuse and rape a child? Life or abuse? I mean, I'm talking common sense here, not jargon. You cannot be equal and one with life if you abuse it. You can only be equal to the abuse. If you are a woman and you accept and allow yourself to be beaten by your boyfriend or husband, are you equal and one with 'love,' or the abuse of love? And that is how we have existed, within the acceptance and the allowance of abuse and self-interest. It is time to wake up and see what you are really doing by not standing up for life. Humanity has made a mockery of "Life" and "Love" by holding onto opinions that bring no honor to either instead of acting to bring Heaven on Earth. Call it jargon, but you can plainly see this is the true condition that we find ourselves.

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A lot of people regard it as important that they should be honest with themselves. You will also find that there is a very large sector of the populace who "venerate" life and others as equals. It's not a big deal.

"A lot of people" could mean any number. 100? 2000? A million? "Should be honest with themselves" is not the same as BEING it, of course. And how can one take seriously your statement that "a very large sector of the populace who venerate life?" These points are invalid because you're just making statements that sound good but can't possibly prove.

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It's not something that only happens at the Desteni Cult Farm, as you call it. But once again, "self-honesty" is just another Desteni catch-phrase, so talking about having "self-honesty" in Desteni is not the same as self-honesty as it would normally be understood in common sense terms.

You seem to be running out of steam. Exactly how is the Desteni way of "talking about self-honesty" not "the same" as what it is normally accepted and understood by the man in the street? Are we talking in code or what?

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Andrea
Oh God here we go again with the 'cult talk'.

It is the Cult Education Forum. What do you expect?

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Andrea
I am not here to win over anybody.

What I mean is that your efforts to try and show that Desteni is a humanitarian group out to right the wrongs in the world are unlikely to convince members of this forum. But maybe you're not trying to convince anyone.

You'd think they might be a bit more receptive to the Desteni-Universe at a forum like "Above Top Secret" that deals with UFOs, conspiracies, the paranormal and suchlike, but no, not really ...

[www.abovetopsecret.com]

Even at the David Icke forum Desteni is generally regarded as a joke, and that's from people who actually believe Icke's Illuminati reptilian conspiracy theories:

[www.davidicke.com]

Of course, you might say that the reason people don't appreciate Desteni is because they are "system robots" or lack "self-honesty".

The reality is, when posts at these forums describe the Desteni "interviews" with Adolf Hitler or Kurt Cobain as ridiculous or stupid, that's because in common sense terms, they're right: the whole idea is totally ridiculous and stupid.

But what is of concern here is that there is more to it than just some silly kid fooling around pretending to be a new kind of channeler.

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Andrea
What I am doing is pointing out common sense: Money and society constructs are harmful - just look at the world around you.

Everyone knows that a lot of social constructs, the way money is used or how people are controlled can be harmful. It's not exactly news. Neither is it the main focus of Desteni or this forum.

Going on the information available the main focus of Desteni is Bernard Poolman.

To whom it may concern:

Rather than defining a cult by its beliefs, most experts instead look to the behavior, dynamics and structure of a group.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton, who wrote the definitive book about thought reform (often called "brainwashing") also wrote a paper about cult formation. Lifton defined a cult as having the following three characteristics:

1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power.

2. A process [is in use] call[ed] coercive persuasion or thought reform.

3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.

Margaret Singer, clinical psychologist and once Professor of Psychology at the University of California, Berkeley was the preeminent cult expert of the 20th Century. She counseled and/or interviewed thousands of people affected by controversial groups often called "cults." Dr. Singer offered meaningful definitions of unsafe groups or "cults" in her book Cults in our Midst.

According to Singer, unsafe groups or cults can generally be defined by three factors:

1. The origin of the group and role of the leader.

2. The power structure, or relationship between the leader and the followers.

3. The use of a coordinated program of persuasion, which is called thought reform [or more commonly, 'brainwashing'"].

Yes, cultic beliefs would be those that originate with those sorts of groups and/or group leaders.

But at the same time, cults are most often understood to be of a religious, spiritual or otherwise philosophical orientation and their beliefs tend towards encompassing ideas well outside the mainstream and involve superstitious, supernatural, paranormal, magical or mythological elements. They have been that way for millenia and by that definition, depending on how you look at it, cult is not necessarily a pejorative term.

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Darryl Thomas
You seem to be running out of steam.

Quite right, because I am not the slightest bit interested in discussing the Desteni philosophy.

Whuhahahah

So you dont care to discuss the desteni philosophy? Why is that because then you would not actually have anything else to write about - would rather find dirty little secrets about us and talk about that until your ego's expand. So tell me that analogy of a cult including charismatic leader etc is that supposed to divert me to running away with my tail between my legs. Wow the fascination you guys have with Bernard. Bernard participates on the desteni forum, works with people here at the farm, answers tons of e-mails and focusses on projects, just like me and Sunette.

As i have mentioned listening to the message coming from dimensional beings might be difficuilt because hey if you cant see them with your physical eyes, then you dont know if they are there. If I presented you with the same message would that be different? That is common sense - listening to what is being said and applying it for yourself. Not working within opinions and assumptions.

I get what you guys are doing, but it is laughable how you could possible compare a group of people who work together to a list of opinions based on some group that poisoned themselves in the name of God, just because what: Bernard works behind the scenes? You cannot figure out what dimensions are because you see in the physical and the message is way beyond your comprehension because you want to stick to your opinions. Interesting how you place somebody inside a box because of your limitations and fears. In common sense speaking to dead people is crazy. Then what is rape, murder and war? Acceptable I guess? Yes so each time you laugh at what we present, another rape occurs and nobody stands up and says: no more, I will stop at nothing to find out why this happens and how to practically stop this


Andrea

Sandman, What an odd little group.

I am more interested in the financial aspects of the group. Someone somewhere is getting paid, most likely from the members. If there is no money associated with either joining or buying tapes or DVDs I would be surprised.

How much does Bernie (the) Poolman make? Are there any financial statments? Is there a clear leadership tree?