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Re: Desteni farm, ecstasy, drugs, MDMA, Osho Rajneesh
Posted by: wanderingcrow ()
Date: April 02, 2011 09:59PM

A few days back I had a most fearful thought after watching some recent Destini video's made by some of the longterm members. Many of whom I've been familiar with for quite some time. At first I could not put my finger on what was disturbing me. It just sounded like the same old rant and yet something pushed me to replay and look again. Then it hit me... there is a marked change in their physical demeanor's. Maybe I'm late in coming to this but it struck me all the same.
I thought depression could be one answer for this but as I looked further I realized there was something darker lurking in their faces. It illustrated itself in the tension of their mouths the pinched faces the pale demeanors.There is a look that comes upon them after they have been in for sometime. Hollow is one word I found to describe it. Pained was another. Yet there was something more...It was like witnessing the aftermath of a terrible contagion.
Poolmans is like an infection. The longer they are around him the more they morph into angry bitter and tragically more blinded D~clones spreading his insanity like a virus and it's really showing. The one and equal for all took on a creepy new definition. The Bernard borg came to mind.
It's become for the older ones an implanted force of negativity that is etching itself physically on their faces.
Hence, my fear that the scenario you suggest had become more of a possibility than I would have entertained before.

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Re: Desteni
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: April 02, 2011 10:37PM

It is possible for a leader to inject his or her inner process into targets, especially those living in total environments.

This is called projective identification and has been studied by psychoanalysts. It can happen when a person is imprisoned and loses adult agency. In hostage situations that go on long enough there is a grave risk of captives forming deep bonds with thier kidnappers--what has been termed Stockholm Syndrome.

Some discussion here--scroll down


and here


Here is an article on the subject that you can look up

(An abstract is a brief description of the article--its not the whole thing)

Journal of the American Academy of Psychoanalysis and Dynamic Psychiatry

Volume: 31 | Issue: 3
Cover date: Fall 2003
Page(s): 521-540

Assaultive Projective Identification and the Plundering of the Victim's Identity

Author(s): Stanley Rosenman, Ph.D. 1


A destructive mode of projective identification is delineated: a predator's catastrophic attack calculated to cause the victim a stress disorder marked by a disarrayed identity. This discomposure enables the perpetrator to aggrandize a manifold inroad upon the victim's identity to imprint, intrude, mingle and/or lodge his representation into it; to ravage, steal from, impoverish, and/or corrupt it; finally to have his representation emerge as an internal regulator of the traumatized prey's functioning. The victim's debased integrity is manifest in the symptoms of his ensuing posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

Author(s): Stanley Rosenman, Ph.D. 1


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Re: Desteni
Posted by: wanderingcrow ()
Date: April 02, 2011 11:57PM

WoW That abstract of Dr. Stanley Rosenman's article is chilling. It's describes perfectly what I couldn't articulate. The words corrupt and impoverish really nail the look I saw after that last Destini viewing.
PTSD is a disorder I would not wish upon any human being. I have spent a large part of my life dealing with and learning how to manage the aftermath of trauma myself. Perhaps in some way it was my own face staring back at me that I saw in theirs. I truly deeply despise the Poolmans of the world.
Thanks for the dead ~on info Corboy. You always help to connect the dots for me in your posts. Peace

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Re: Desteni
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: April 03, 2011 05:26AM


"I am thinking of recent ideas about the 'institution in the mind', whereby David Armstrong has developed other notions of Isabel Menzies Lyth's to locate institutional dynamics, whether benign or malign, in the unconscious of the individual." Young


"One way of distinguishing benign from virulent projective identification is whether or not it allows experience to be thought about - for its complexity to be borne, for it to feed depressive functioning (perhaps by making it possible for a person to hold and contain sadness and acknowledge and mourn a loss with depth and relatedness?-Corboy) Young

In the kinds of abusive groups and relationships that concern us here, persons are not allowed to think or feel or acknowledge complexity and develop what some famous songs have termed, 'Tombstone Eyes'.

quotes from a paper to be referred to below.

Projective identification may occur at group level. This citation is for a long and very technical paper that is one clincians attempt to find ways to apply psychoanalytic data concerning projective identification to larger group processes.



Young, after a lengthy and careful discussion brings us to how groups and institutions such as medical and in this case nursing training programs manage anxiety.

This can very possibly be applied to the sorts of groups we are concerned with on the Ross Institute message board. Remember, nursing students are not pressured to cut off from their families or despise society.


In her classical paper on 'The Function of Social Systems as a Defence Against Anxiety', Menzies Lyth describes the link as it applies to student nurses: 'Although, following Jaques, I have used the term "social defence system" as a construct to describe certain features of the nursing service as a continuing social institution, I wish to make it clear that I do not imply that the nursing service as an institution operates the defences. Defences are, and can be, operated only by individuals. Their behaviour is the link between their psychic defences and the institution' (Menzies Lyth, 1959, in Menzies Lyth, 1988, vol. 1, p. 73). There is a complex and subtle interaction, resulting in a matching between the individual's defences and the institution's. T

he processes 'depend heavily on repeated projection of the psychic defence system into the social defence system and repeated introjection of the social defence system into the psychic defence system. This allows continuous testing of the match and fit as the individual experiences his own and other people's reactions.

'The social defence system of the nursing service has been described as a historical development through collusive interaction between individuals to project and reify relevant elements of their psychic defence systems. However, from the viewpoint of the new entrant to the nursing service, the social defence system at the time of entry is a datum, an aspect of external reality to which she must react and adapt. (Corboy--this is likely to be yet more intense in a prison, ashram, political commune or cult compound)

Fenichel makes a similar point (1946). He states that social institutions arise through the efforts of human beings to satisfy their needs, but that social institutions then become external realities comparatively independent of individuals which affect the structure of the individual' (pp. 73-4). The student nurse has to adapt her defences to those of the institution. The latter are relatively immutable, so she shapes hers until they are congruent with the institution's. The primitive psychicdefences from infancy are brought by the individual to the fraught and literally life-threatening setting of the hospital.

'These defences are oriented to the violent, terrifying situations of infancy, and rely heavily on violent splitting [and, I would add, projective identification - R. M. Y.] which dissipates the anxiety. (These defenses) avoid the experience of anxiety and effectively prevent the individual from confronting it. Thus, the individual cannot bring the content of the phantasy anxiety situations into effective contact with reality. Unrealistic or pathological anxiety cannot be differentiated from realistic anxiety arising from real dangers.

Therefore, anxiety tends to remain permanently at a level determined more by the phantasies than by the reality. The forced introjection of the hospital defence system, therefore, perpetuates in the individual a considerable degree of pathological anxiety.

'The enforced introjection and use of such defences also interferes with the capacity for symbol formation... The defences inhibit the capacity for creative, symbolic thought, for abstract thought, and for conceptualization. They inhibit the full development of the individual's understanding, knowledge and skills that enable reality to be handled effectively and pathological (Corboy--pathological as in unbearable and that threatens to overrun the student's coping skills_ anxiety mastered' (pp. 74-5).

I have quoted this passage - one which will be familiar to many - not to review or to bore you but to invite you to reflect on the appropriateness of this description for understanding how a person comes to think and feel like a racist or a virulent nationalist or a member of a street gang or a religious or psychoanalytic sect. I believe that the mechanisms are the same and that the process of taking in the values as 'a given', adapting one's own primitive anxieties to that group's particular version of splitting, projection, stereotyping and scapegoating, leads to the same kind of impoverishment that nurses experience - of the ability to think and feel with moderation and to deal with reality and anxiety. It is projected into the structure or the Other and given back - not detoxified, but - as an injunction to behave inhumanely (whether toward patients as is the case with the anxious nursing students -Corboy)

How, if at all, does this differ from any other theory of socialisation into a belief system? The answer is two-fold.

Most conceptions of socialisation in social psychology, sociology and social anthropology have a civility and blandness, reminiscent of learning theory in psychology, as if to say, 'This is how Dick and Jane learn to be good citizens, members of the tribe, team-players, or whatever'.

Young tells us"

I believe that it is an implication of fundamental importance that the level of explanation following on from Bion's insistence that Freud missed out 'the ultimate sources of all group behaviour' is that we are dealing with a whole new level of grip. It's done with superglue - cemented or bonded with the most primitive level of feeling that we have.

In the context of what I have been saying, it is now time to ponder a passage from Hanna Segal about the political implications of Klein's views on how hunger gnaws:


'From the beginning the infant forms some object relationships, predominantly in phantasy. In her view, the outward deflection of the death instinct postulated by Freud creates the fantasy of a deathly bad object... First we project our destructiveness into others; then we wish to annihilate them without guilt because they contain all the evil and destructiveness'

(Segal, 1988, pp. 50-51). When we read accounts of the genocide of the Conquistadors, the Stalinists, the Germans, the Kampucheans, the Americans or the Iraqis, we must ask what has been projected into these people from the most primitive parts of their tormentors. Similarly, when we see the behaviour of drunken Indians or Esquimos or the fawning of black film actors such as Step'n Fetchit or the behaviour of Mafiosi as represented by Brando, Jews like Dickens' Fagin as played by Alec Guiness or Americans as played by John Wayne - then we must note how such projections take root and evoke stereotypes.

Once we have adopted this way of thinking about the relationship between the individual and the group process, familiar matters begin to appear in a new light. What are Bion's three basic assumptions which sunder sensible work group functioning - dependence, pairing, fight-flight - but projective identifications? What is the mechanism of becoming a follower, as described in Freud's Group Psychology and the Analysis of the Ego (1921), except projective identification of desired parts into the leader, who gives back an identity and frees one from the obligation of being responsible for one's own superego



What is being a fan of a movie star or a groupie of a rock star other than romantic, idealising projective identification? Main makes just this point: 'Where

positive aspects of the self are forcefully projected similar degrees of depersonalization occur, with feelings of personal worthlessness and with dependent worship of the other's contrasting strengths, powers, uncanny sensitivity, marvellous gifts, thoughts, knowledge, undying goodness etc. This is the world of the devotee, cults and hero-promotion' (Main 1975, in Main, 1989, p. 106).

It is also a world in which people will do anything a Bagwan or a Rev. James Jones tells them to do - from sexual licence to mass suicide. The same suspension of one's own sense of right and wrong is at work in the followers L. Ron Hubbard in the Church of Scientiology as in the helter-skelter minds of the devotees of Charles Manson, killing rich Californians, and in the convictions of bombers and perpetrators of sectarian murders in Northern Ireland or terrorists from Lybia, though the ideologies of the respective group leaders may have utterly different apparent of real justifications.

Young then tells us:


As I have indicated, the use of the mechanism is not always malign or destructive. I can recall an unbearable situation when I felt in imminent danger of being utterly overwhelmed at a Leicester Conference on group relations. I survived by thinking of a number of the men I admire who stood up to intolerable social pressures - Socrates, Luther, Lincoln, Gandhi, Marcuse, Bonhoeffer, King, Mandela. My hallucinated heroes and I formed a group in my mind, which I called ‘The PSÖ D Solidaroty Group’. It was with their support and comradeship (all relations were conducted inside my head) that I survived the most trying exercise of the conference and managed not to leave, break down or act out. Omnipotent, you may say, but certainly effective. At the time it felt like a life-saver. Anyone who has attended a Leicester Conference or similar group relations event will understand what I mean (Miller, 1990) .


The example I have just given is of an idealised internal group, with which I was in projective identification of a kind. I now want to speak about another sort of group. You will recall that I have offered two sorts of hope for rescuing us from the charge that psychoanalysis is reductionist with respect to groups and institutions. The first was to look behind Laswell's Formula about rationalising private interests and claiming that they represent the public good. Following Wolfenstein, we discovered how social forces shaped conceptions of private interests and should be considered as an earlier stage in the process. The second basis for hope lay in looking deeper, with Bion and his successors, into how institutional and group values get imbedded - superglued - in the unconscious via projective identification as a way of dealing with psychotic anxieties. I now offer a third way in which groups and group dynamics are at work in the unconscious.

(Armstrong, 1991).

one hopes that further refinements will make it's use more subtle and discriminating in efforts to save people from harm, help those who wield it to resort less often to thrusts and parries and to running through one's fellow human beings.

One of the guiding principles in my choice of examples has been to draw attention to crossover points between individual and group processes. Another has been to indicate places where it is perhaps surprising to find the group and social forces: deep in the unconscious of the individual. Finally, I have been concerned to emphasise the primitiveness and the adhesive, binding power of projective identification. Connections, once made, are not easily dislodged.

That makes it a profoundly conservative mechanism, hard at work at the heart of human nature - in infants, nominal grown-ups, groups, societies, cultures, nations. It is deeply problematic for any hopes former Soviets may have for a Confederation of Independent States, much less for hopes that humankind may entertain for truly United Nations. No wonder it is so hard to change and no wonder that decades of willed, imposed change, for example, in Eastern Europe, can melt away as soon as military repression is remov

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Re: Desteni
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: April 03, 2011 11:07PM



Regarding what goes on at the Desteni farm, Poolman and members of Desteni use the illegal drug Ecstasy on an apparently regular basis at the farm

On dangerous meds, the feds and 'heads'
Eugene Schoenfeld
San Francisco Chronicle


Ecstasy usually produces the opposite of paranoia. Under its effect, individuals are more open to intimacy, both psychological and physical, and many therapists administered MDMA to their patients, generally with beneficial effects. The patients were warned, however, not to make enduring relationship agreements until several weeks after the last treatment, because a person under the drug's influence is likely to love everyone and everything.

Until it wears off.

Few adverse effects were noted from MDMA used in therapeutic situations.


(Corboy note: It is worth noting that Eugene Schoenfeld MD is not anti drug, so when he warns of potential adverse side effects and precautions to take, its serious business. He was the author of a medical advice column in the early 1970s, Dear Doctor Hip-ocrates--which ran in underground newspapers and answered questions about sex and drug use. Dr Gene gave his young readers information from medically reliable sources. He advised readers iusing an early application of what is now termed harm reduction. )

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Re: Desteni
Posted by: ThomDarc ()
Date: April 07, 2011 07:58AM

Just to let everyone know that the Antidestenimovement channel created by Rob Lester will probably soon be down:


Rob Lester explains the situation here: []

A back up channel has been established here: []

I myself have established a back up channel on BlipTV:


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Re: Desteni
Posted by: concernedmom83 ()
Date: April 12, 2011 10:33PM

Hi All,
I have been thinking of this question and wonder if anyone can
answer it. Do bernard or any of the members of destini that
live on the farm in SA work for a living? I mean outside the farm.
If not, than one would have to deduct that they are living from the
money sent to them from the members for the courses, stays at the
farm, etc.
As one with bills every month, I find this just rather deceitful and
dishonest to the members, who are all about honesty. Can anyone
here imagine someone sending you money each money to pay your
bills and keep life going for you in a pretty decent way? I can't either.
I guess that's because we have scruples and pride.
If anyone knows about their employment, I would be most interested
to know

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Bernard Poolman, Desteni "I" Process, Desteni farm
Posted by: Sandman ()
Date: April 14, 2011 05:32PM

As far as we know, Poolman and other people who reside permanently at the Desteni farm make money by selling the various courses: the Desteni "I" Process (including the Desteni Income Plan), Structural Resonance Alignment Training, Introduction to Desteni etc.

However, that is a relatively recent thing which only took off in the past year or two, because when Desteni first started in 2007, they were hooking in an audience by offering everything apparently for free and only asking for donations.

They were recently selling holidays at the Desteni farm, but the link is now dead:

At one time they may have been selling horse-riding lessons, but not any more.

So, apart from the bogus courses they sell, and the donations they receive, it is not known if there is another way Poolman and others at the farm make a living.

As re: the state of exhaustion or ill-health some of them appear to be in, many of them are on a blood type diet -- [] -- and constantly focussed on their own neuroses in order to somehow be relieved of thoughts and instead live "in the physical".

These videos by Gian Robberts who has lived on the Desteni farm since leaving home suggest that "being in the physical" just means manual labour on the Desteni farm:

Desteni and Me on a Journey for Life Cont

My Story and Life with Desteni

3 The Story of Gian and Desteni and Desteniproductions unfolds

He remarks that he's known Bernard Poolman's son, Leslie-John most of his life because one or both of his parents knew Bernard Poolman in the SA police force.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2011 05:33PM by Sandman.

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Re: Bernard Poolman, Desteni "I" Process, Desteni farm
Posted by: concernedmom83 ()
Date: April 15, 2011 09:54AM

Thanks Sandman. I find it so hard to believe, call me crazy, but how does one depend on your followers
to pay your bills? I am going to look into this more in depth.

Gian... I find it so sad listening to him. He tries to act happy, but his voice is shaky and he is so nervous
speaking. Now a young guy like him would be working or at school studying. I wonder where his parents
are? I think that they must be from SA if bernard's son is his friend. His father was a policeman with bernard..
another interesting bit of info.

If any parents of a destini member are reading this, please PM me. I think that we could help one another as
I have got help here on this forum.

The 'blood diet' .... I cant say anything more depressing that would top that from a 20 something young man.

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Re: Bernard Poolman, Desteni "I" Process, Desteni farm
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: April 16, 2011 02:01AM

That blood-type diet, is just another sham.
Desteni in an absurd fraud. One one hand they beLIEve in outright delusion and lies, like the lizard stuff, channeling Hitler, etc.

Then they try to act fake-scientific, with things like the blood-type diet, which is just very poor pseudoscience, with no proof at all behind it.

But like all sects and cults, Desteni wants to manipulate and control all aspects of their followers, and FOOD CONTROL is important.
There is another strange sect around Ching Hai, which also uses food control as part of their program. Ching Hai food control. []

As far as having your followers pay your bills, that is the main point in starting up a sect/cult like Desteni, for the leader! The entire point of it, is to make lots of money, and get rich, and not have to work at a real job.
So making money off the followers is always job #1 in virtually every sect.

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