Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: October 18, 2008 01:07AM

There is no need to go tell Emma C to 'get the Sogyal thread moving', as she does not report ever having been involved with Sogyal/Rigpa.

The football hooligans are a forthright and honest bunch compared with what we have seen of DW and NKT on the mesage board.

Persons who decide to gang up and defend the honor of their team with fists and boots know the risks they will incur beforehand. They know they want a fight and choose companions who share the same agenda.

Those who like football but do not want to brawl can easily stay away y going home early for the night, watch the match on their television set, have a peaceful cup of tea and go to bed unbruised.

The problem with Buddhist entities gone sour is that their form of hooliganism is disguised, not openly proclaimed. And those doing it, wear
robes, not football colors and hobnail boots.

The new visitor meets someone nice, in robes, at a peace march, and is put immediately at ease. He or she is not told that the NKT is at odds with the Dalai Lama. Only after the new visitor has become emotionally entangled with NKT will he or she be steered or shamed away from all other books or Buddhist activities. Instead, he or she will end up isolated at NKT festivals and events--an isolation that is dysfunctional in relation to Buddhism.

He or she will visit the dharma center and see only smiles and hear sutras chanted. You dont know, unless you aggressively do Google searches or read the E-sangha terms of use, the NKT has garnered a poor reputation and been thrown out the Web's equivalent of respectable pubs after one too many brawls and for scaring peaceable customers away.

If a gang of football hooligans come walking down the road, you know fighting is on offer, and you know to get well out of the way.

But Buddhist dont expect to be drawn into ugly doctrinal disputes or be sent to write nasty things on internet forums to defend your feudal lord (excuse me, rinpoche) from evil enemies.

At least with the big boys in boots and football colors, you know what's on offer. They're a candid, honest bunch. They dont hide who they are.

But one expects very much better from monks--not the kind of ugly treatment Emma has reported.

Or the NKT rapid response team visit to that took place within 24 hours of Judy showing up, expressing misgivings as a new member of NKT.

Here is information from those people who have already 'tried out' NKT
and did not like the experience. It was found necessary to protect the discussions on this site from intrusion.

"Although the NKT survivors group is not for people in the NKT we found the NKT survivors group to be monitored by the NKT itself. The NKT were actively posting and monitoring all posts put up on the group. We feel the NKT might be better off spending its time focusing on the problems that have driven people on to the NKT survivors group than moaning about the hurt people who gather on this site and talk about their painful experiences.

When people are angry with something or when something has hurt them they rarely feel like they want to be positive about that thing. Where are people who have either left or been driven out of the NKT supposed to go to talk about their pain? The NKT do not offer counselling to people who have been abused or mistreated. People will naturally come close to other people who have similar experiences as them especially after abusive situations."



Peoples Experiences

'Here you will find the real life stories of people who have chosen to share what has happened to them.

'All Life stories are directly copied from email and not edited except for name changes. We change names because people are often deeply hurt, confused and frightened after they have chosen to leave the NKT.

They have generally not been threatened or persued, the fear comes from the bullying they have recieved and from their wish not to harm others."


This aticle was dated September 18th, 2008 making it recent.


Readers are invited to read this article and then look very carefully at material in the comments section on September 19th--a discussion of NKT members appling for social service benefits.

NKT's rapid response teams have made it unwelcome elsewhere.

The moderators of the E-sangha discussion venue decided, as was their right, to state in the member's terms of use for the E-sangha site, the following guideline:

Right View

1) While it is acknowledged that levels of understanding of the Dharma will vary among members, and that all will have their own beliefs about it, certain doctrines such as karma, postmortem rebirth and not-self, are held to be core teachings by all Buddhist traditions. Members are free to privately disagree with these teachings, or to discuss and ask questions about them, but not to debate them, denigrate them, or deny that they were taught by the Buddha.

2) Members may not post, attach, use or send any posts, Personal Messages, links, images or files that promote a religion, belief, faith or doctrine other than "Buddhism." Promotion is defined as encouragement of the progress, growth, or acceptance of something including advertising and publicity.

***3) These few "Buddhist" schools of thoughts are not recognized by E-sangha. No links to their websites, their books, or their followers' websites are allowed:

New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) and all other proponents of Dolgyal/Shugden

Dark Zen

True Buddha School

Aro Ter/Flaming Jewel Sangha


The New Kadampa Truth site sums it up well:


We feel the NKT might be better off spending its time focusing on the problems that have driven people on to the NKT survivors group than moaning about the hurt people who gather on this site and talk about their painful experiences.


Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2008 01:26AM by corboy.

Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by: Tenzin Peljor ()
Date: October 18, 2008 01:17AM

I wish to correct some points or add point of views with respect to the two posts I’ve sent.

1. there are more accounts of former members reporting their experience in NKT public on the internet available. e.g.


Also there are a lot of discussion groups were people expressed their bad experiences with NKT. I think, that the NKS has 750 members is a testament of wrong developments within NKT and not the activities of HHDL or the “manipulation” of ex-members or that people are interested to read something “negative” about NKT as NKT claims.

2. From some NKT member’s point of view to be criticised and not praised is of course labelled as “negative”, however, when someone is e.g. sexually abused (what happened in NKT many times! – even by the successors of Geshe Kelsang!) and expresses his or her feelings or confusion this isn’t “negative”, this is the first step of healing and more “positive” then repressing the own inner voice or feelings or to continue to practice in an unhealthy and less supporting setting.

3. NKT is a “master of labelling”. What ever is supporting their point of view or perception is either “pure” or “positive”, “balanced” or any other suited euphemistic term is applied and what ever disagrees with their point of view is “a lie”, “negative”, “biased” or any other pejorative term is applied.

This can be recognized easily also at the New Kadampa Truth site some NKT members suggest to read:

If one disagrees with NKT ordination as being a proper monk’s or nun’s ordination and states reasons why, or disagrees with NKT’s point of view that Shugden is a Buddha and states reasons why this is portrayed by NKT as being lies, people who express these views are portrayed as “liars” while the own views are portrayed by NKT as “the truth” and they portray themselves as the poor "innocent" victims of the "lies" of others. However, having and expressing a different or an opposing view is no lie at all, it’s just a different point of view and it can even be correct ;-)

In that context it is also interesting to note that others experiences are portrayed as being “smears” and “negative” while NKT members experiences are truths and positive. Trying to get clarity within NKT about the sexual abuses by discussing it is labelled by NKT leadership as “meaningless activities” but performing public and aggressive protests against a highly respected member of the Buddhist community and perceived enemy of NKT, the Dalai Lama, is a peaceful and compassionate action. NKT has only “good and pure motivations” others opposing are led by bias, hostility, are mental instable, obsessed are misled by the Dalai Lama etc.

Another former member puts it this way:
“Now any critics are labelled as followers of the Dalai Lama - the common enemy and are of course deluded. The simple message the NKT propagate is we are pure - if you are not with us then you are against us - and thus you are impure.
The basic tenant of Buddhism is that there are no external enemies, mere projections of your own deluded mind. But if you are the NKT this only applies to anyone who disagrees with their POV.“

4. I recognized that NKT has learnt from their critics. Mainly they use some of their arguments to apply it now to the critics although the arguments they apply against them lack a basis or are baseless. Although NKT states now (due to the public pressure I guess) they made faults and try to overcome it, I wonder what are the faults they are acknowledging and why do they not excuse to their ex-members and instead slander them?

What has NKT learnt? What do they see as their faults?
Maybe WisdomFire, Jimmy or Atisha’ Cook can explain this?

Regarding those new to Buddhism:

To understand NKT right from the beginning is almost impossible. There are different objects of knowledge which have to been investigated:

- the history and development of NKT
- the history, background and driving forces of the Shugden controversy
- past public NKT statements and statements by former members
- what the old kadam school is and what NKT is or is not (their self-identity)
- the history and development of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
- the history and development of Tibetan Buddhism and Gelug school
- the function and institution of the Dalai Lamas
- proper understanding of Buddhism, Buddhist concepts and especially a proper understanding of a qualified student-teacher relationship and the Vinaya
- signs and functioning of cults
- the tactics of NKT
- cross-cultural issues

My own understanding is:
The Buddhism as taught in NKT is very artificial and is understood and applied mainly on a very literally level. The understanding and teachings on student-teacher-relationship, "purity", pure view, emptiness and different other approaches and teachings are misleading or just taught superficial. The combination of all of this, mixed with pride to be ‘special’ and ‘pure’ while the root from which NKT derives from (Gelug school) is ‘very degenerated’ and the Dalai Lama is “the enemy of the Dharma” or “destroying the pure Dharma” or "possessed by a Mara" "evil and cruel" and "his followers have blind faith" etc. and some other factors, like mainly a deep lack of knowledge, what makes the special mix "NKT" a spiritual trap – at least from my point of view.

However, nowadays there are enough independent information available to get a good knowledge to be able to judge:

Regarding NKT there are five academic researches available:

• Kay, David N. (1997) “The New Kadampa Tradition and the Continuity of Tibetan Buddhism in Transition“, Journal of Contemporary Religion 12:3 (October 1997), 277-293
• Cozort, Daniel (2003) ‘The making of the Western Lama’ in Buddhism in the Modern World; Adaptations of an Ancient Tradition, Steven Heine and Charles S. Prebish (ed.), Oxford: Oxford University Press: 221-248
• David N. Kay (2004) The New Kadampa Tradition in Tibetan and Zen Buddhism in Britain, London: Routledge
• Waterhouse, Helen (2005) ‘New Kadampa Tradition’ in the Encyclopaedia of New Religious Movement, P. B. Clarke ed., London: Routledge.
• Bluck, Robert (2006) British Buddhism London: Routledge.

David Barret, author of The New Believers: A Survey of Sects, Cults and Alternative Religions, has characterised the NKT-IKBU as "deriving from Tibetan Buddhism" and as "one of the newest and most controversial buddhist movements".

For a background on the setting of NKT (including its controversial aspects):
[] or the list of these researches:


For a proper understanding of Buddhism and teacher-student-relationship see:

Those who have doubts in general: All lamas I met said: there is no need to rush.
(In opposition to that NKT is very rushy and pushy and spreads a certain type of "the world is going down" atmosphere.)

The best is to take time and space for a proper investigation. The decision one will make will affect not only this life but also future lives – at least from a Buddhist perspective.

One should check if the doctor is really a doctor and able to cure the disease or not. If he is unable he will make the patient more sick and dependent on him while taking all his money and faith only for the benefit of the doctor but not for the benefit of the patient. Spiritual paths and spiritual teachers are far more difficult to investigate because they deal with the mind not the body, and there is no institution which approves their reliability; so more care and caution to find a genuine spiritual doctor should be applied.

to Jimmy and Atisha's Cook
Posted by: Tenzin Peljor ()
Date: October 18, 2008 01:43AM

---reply to Jimmy---
Dear Jimmy, at NKS there are balanced posts, there are also positive statements about NKT and posts by NKT members which attacked David, a Canadian monk, other NKS members or me. There are also posts who asked for compassion for Geshe Kelsang and NKT members or expressed it, then there are many posts with respect to Buddhism or helpful links. I could easily give quotes here but I have no access to NKS anymore because I resigned from it.

"Positive”, “negative”, “balanced” are judgements based on the perspective of the person judging. There are also some posts which are aggressive or hostile to NKT. However to take these as a reason to portray the NKS as a “hate group” is just unfair and incorrect. People leaving cults go through different difficult mental states, and the forum likes to give also people the chance to express these feelings and there was also open discussion about if this should be done or not.

I think, cults and the forces involved function in a way like drugs. Drugs promise you a lot and give you good experiences in the beginning but later when the disadvantages appear to the surface, people are already almost completely dependent on it and although the drug looses its power or you have to take more and more of it to gain similar results and you have less good experiences then in the beginning and more and more sufferings; the drug addict tends towards to ignore these signs and clings to his initial experiences while fading out all disadvantages, the bad developments, and the warnings of others. There are similar patterns involved in cult-dynamics. (I lack time to go through it in detail, and there are enough sources available.) Someone who wants to escape drugs or drug abuse will not list the (pseudo-)benefits of drugs but its disadvantages, just for the sake to have the clarity to be able to renounce the drugs based on a clear recognition what’s wrong with drugs. For this reason you have to contemplate or speak about the negative sides. A process of disconnecting form NKT may be similar with this. So what is wrong with speaking out what has been repressed for years because members were told this is not "pure view" or "negative" their "own fault" etc.?

BTW, why do you join the forum which asks that NKT members shouldn’t sign?

It is true that there are many posts completely disagreeing with NKT but what is “negative” in disagreeing with NKT? Then also NKT is very “negative” because NKT disagrees with the Dalai Lama… BTW is there any positive post, statement or website by NKT/WSS/GKG about the Dalai Lama? ;-)

What is about your or NKT’s “sensitivity” or “paranoia”? as you said “So whatever we do will probably be misconstrued.” ;-)

---reply to Atisha’s Cook ---
Dear Atisha’s Cook,
only relying on the own experiences is not sufficient. Also the followers of Shoko Asahara reported about very good experiences (see Lifton), and how powerful Asahara appeared to them. Every drug addict has good experiences yet still they deceive themselves and are caught in a self-destructive circle. Buddhism includes to investigate and to question own experiences in an unbiased manner. In a way one has to train to be completely open and fearlessness to do this but as far as I can report NKT implants fear and close-mindedness in their followers and offers an easy black-and-white world.
Transformation is based on introspection and critical analysis not on statements of belief, attachment to nice words or nice experiences or a mission to spread "this stainless tradition" all over the world and "built a NKT temple in every major city". The latter approach mainly blocks the introspection and to release the mind from it’s bondages.

As you suggested correctly to check:
For checking you need unfiltered or unmanipulated information, that’s why Milarepa - before he finally followed Marpa - asked those being neutral to Marpa about Marpa and those who disagreed with him. Followers are always very enthusiastic ;-) After checking and investigating all sides, based on his inner spiritual development (he already had certain qualities like renunciation, compassion etc.) and other factors (another genuine lama suggested Marpa to him) he made up his own mind.

If you are interested in Judy’s welfare you would properly not suppress the opinions of those who see NKT as a "cult" and let up making her own mind? There are also many genuine Buddhist schools and Buddhist masters without such controversies a newbie can check and follow, NKT isn’t the only choice.

For a proper checking, according to Aryadeva, Chandrakirti and Je Tsongkhapa a student must have three qualities, if he hasn’t them then he will delude himself and will see a genuine teacher as wrong and a fake teacher as genuine. What are these three qualities?

Je Tsongkhapa
"It is said that one who is non-partisan, intelligent, and diligent
Is a vessel for listening to the teachings.
The good qualities of the instructor do not appear otherwise
Nor do those of fellow listeners."

With respect to these three characteristics, "nonpartisan" means not to take sides. If you are partisan, you will be obstructed by your bias and will not recognize good qualities. Because of this, you will not discover the meaning of good teachings. As Bhavaviveka states in his Heart of the Middle Way (Madhyamaka-hrdaya):

"Through taking sides the mind is distressed, Whereby you will never know peace."

"Taking sides" is to have attachment for your own religious system and hostility toward others'. Look for it in your own mind and then discard it…

Though non-partisan, if you do not have the mental force to distinguish between correct paths of good explanation and counterfeit paths of false explanation, you are not fit to listen to the teachings. Therefore, you must have the intelligence that understands both of these. By this account you will give up what is unproductive, and then adopt what is productive.

Sadly, such advises or teachings aren’t given by NKT…

You state nicely: “Buddha said that you should always check very carefully any teacher or teachings, as if checking gold before buying it. i believe that any genuine, non-cultish, religious tradition shouldn't be afraid of your questions and doubts.“ however NKT tells their members gradually that “Geshe-la is a Buddha” and that the member’s perception is not reliable. Who sees “Geshe-la” as a Buddha has “pure view” and who does not see him as a Buddha is deluded, has “impure view” or will attain “no realisation” – “its up to you to judge what is the greater benefit”. NKT are very skilled in turning the minds of others into their own world of thinking.

Instead of helping the newbie to increase his abilities to judge on his own, NKT is misusing certain teachings to undermine their self-esteem, intuition and to mistrust their own feelings and perceptions. At the same time them is told repeatedly how “pure” NKT is, how enlightened GKG and how “impure our times” are. Abusing the lack of knowledge of newbies they are finally sucked into NKT. This is no Buddhist approach. And such an approach can't be recognized in the beginning. Therefore, I guess, the information or point of view of former members matters for someone who wishes to check NKT.

Best Wishes, and thank you for your pov.

My NKT experience
Date: October 18, 2008 07:50AM

As a former attendee of an NKT Centre let me tell a little bit about my story. I am very nervous to publish here as I have watched how the NKT works on other forums and swamps their critics or tells them its their karma. But since this forum seems to be more securely moderated, I will post my experience here. Another reason I haven't posted on this before is because I saw what NKT did to other critics - posting their photos,names and personal histories on a "Truth" website, and I was afraid. But no longer.
I was not told when I joined the centre that the Shugden practice was controversial or contested. I was not allowed my own time to adjust to its rather foreign concepts and language, as I was told I needed a "protector" to keep my mind safe from delusions. There was pressure to attend Shugden pujas and be part of the team, early on in my experience. I also find that NKT uses the Shugden dispute as an excuse for any criticism they receive, saying that anyone who has authentic grievances is being influenced by Buddhists against Shugden. It is very painful because I know that my difficulties will never be taken at face value. With NKT, any detractor seems to be an enemy, a rival, or mentally ill.
Any misgivings I had were scolded, ignored or mocked. For example, I asked why in the NKT it is possible for people who have been studying the Buddhist Teachings for a relatively short time (sometimes only 6 months to 1 year) to become "qualified dharma teachers" (according to NKT posters for the centre) or "ordained monks and close students of Geshe Kelsang". When I looked into the other Buddhist temples.
When I asked how I could be expected to have faith in Geshe Kelsang as a Buddha (which I was told was necessary for Buddhist progress), as I had never met him and never known someone who had been close to him, I was told that others could develop this faith so obviously it was my problem. Many people expressed concern that my doubts would lead me away from Buddhism altogether, and that I should develop a "believing faith", partly through reliance on Shugden protector practices.
The last straw came when I dared to ask a question that cannot be asked. During my last days at the NKT centre, Geshe Kelsang's successor was ousted from his position for sexual abuse of several nuns. During this time, I also heard in hushed whispers, that another previous successor had also sexually abused nuns and female assistants. I asked how, if Geshe Kelsang was a Buddha, could he make such a grave mistake and choose as his successors and future gurus of the tradition, two men who abused and lied.
I was told if I started "trying to cause people to lose faith in Geshela" I "could create problems for the centre". I was shunned or brushed off by many of the members of the centre, including teachers and "ordained". Needless to say, I had seen enough and after 18 months left the organization.
I was left with a feeling of being duped.

Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by: Tenzin Peljor ()
Date: October 18, 2008 10:06PM

Thank you for your brave to post your experiences, interestingtonote!
I hope you are fine after leaving?

In a way I am happy that you were just for 18 months in NKT. There are people who gave 7-12 or more years of their life, money, time and faith into it, to finally find out that they were "being duped". Then there are people who seem to never find there way out of it...

There are certain mental states someone goes through when he/she leaves a cult. So don't wonder when you'll find it sometimes hard. There are information on this available. A former NKT member may misinterpret the struggles after having left the "cult" as a sign that they created "heavy negative Karma" in "leaving the Guru" and this lack of knowledge on cults and how they function may increase fear or feelings of guilt.

I wish you all the best and the fulfilment of your spiritual wishes. Tenzin


I forgot some links to other's experiences available in the internet


In the past [] also had some reports.

Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: October 19, 2008 09:25AM

Dear interestingtonote:

Alexander Berzin's book, Relating to a Spiritual Teacher, was written to serve the needs of persons in your situation. He also has a website that may enable you to see the differences between authentic Tibetan Buddhism and situations that actually depart from the precepts.

A good test is to see if a book or method draws attention to the personality of the teacher, or if you get a sense of mental, emotional and physical balance and a deep, alert sense of coming home.

Intensity is not the same as presence. Groups that foster crusade mentality may give a feeling of intensity, but this is accompanied by tension and mental constriction. It can be a defense against doubt or depression, but long term, one ends up tired, and estranged from othes and from one's own inner depth.

Dr. Berzin has had friendly connections with HH Dalai Lama, and if you were in NKT, you would likely have been steered away from his books.


Dr Berzin mentions that Tibetan Buddhist practice actually emphasized a high degree of self reliance in practitioners.


"Although participation in group recitation of monastic rituals involves meditation, most Tibetan monks and nuns have additional daily practices which they do on their own. Their private practices usually include chanting and performing further tantric rituals, and for some, sitting in silent meditation. Similarly, Tibetan lay practitioners also meditate on their own. Traditional Tibetan Buddhism does not employ the custom of silent group meditation, either with or without a leader. Consequently, when traditional Tibetan masters first come to the West and are asked to lead group meditations, many have no idea what Western students are talking about.
'Tibetans learn to meditate by having a teacher explain the instructions and then by practicing alone in their rooms. The teacher hardly ever meditates with the students, even at the beginning stages of the training. In contrast, most Westerners need someone to meditate with them at first, to help them overcome the confusion and barriers that may arise from engaging in a practice from a foreign culture. Thus, most Westerners inevitably begin to meditate in a group that is led by a teacher."

But if Western students continue with this guidance past the beginning stages, and do not learn how to meditate by themselves and, without the support of a teacher or group, Berzin warns of some potential pitfalls.

"In most cases, teachers lead meditation for benevolent purposes. However, since led meditation works by the power of suggestion, particularly when silent meditation is guided step by step, a teacher with a tendency toward abusing power may contribute to the overdepence. The abuse may take a gross, devious form if motivated by a self serving wish for control, such as when a teacher tries to manipulate disciples to worship the guru by including images of him or herself in the visualization. In extreme cases, the leader of a cult may even use led meditation to brainwash followers to commit mass suicide at an impending end of the world. In more subtle and benign cases of exploitation of power, a teahcer may sincerely wish to benefit disciples. Yet an unconscious drive to gain energy and fulfillment from helping others in an active, demonstrable way may underlie the persons overuse of guided meditation.
"There is no doubt that the directive energy of a charismatic teacher and a group dynamic may contribute to our gaining initial meditative exeperiences as novice practitioners...Spiritual development through meditation, however, needs to be self-sustaining. Once we gain a certain level of discipline and experience through group meditation led by a teacher, however, we need to strengthen that discpline and experience through solitary practice. Otherwise we risk becoming addicted to led meditation, as if it were a recreational drug.

'By being mindful of these points from the start, we may avoid the pitfalls of becoming overdependent on a teacher, or even on tape cassettes, for meditational practice.'

(Alexander Berzin, Relating to a Spiritual Teacher, Snow Lion Press, 2000, pages 187-189). can most students become 'mindful of these points from the start' unless a teacher tells them 'from the start' that group instruction is strictly for early stage practice?

And unless told this at the beginning, how will novice Western students see progress as the ability to practice in a self directed way, rather than measuring their progress by how many blissful experiences they have in the presence of their charismatic teacher?

Think about it. How often, when we talk with spiritual types, have we ever heard someone say, 'At least I'm getting better at meditating in my room, rather than only being able to sit still when at the Dharma center.'

Its much more common to hear people say they are making progress because on So and So's retreat, they had a deeper silence than before. Most reports of progress we here about are linked to the guru or the group retreat experience, rather than in humbler terms of 'I'm better able to do it at home these days' or 'I got curious about my anger when in the car, instead of flipping the bird at the guy who cut me off.'

For the kind of advice Berzin gives is not at all normal in New Age circles. Most of the time we hear of friends who speak of constantly going off to lectures, retreats, or who are entralled by the guru's latest tape or DVD.

Very few will mention that they are being trained to do self conducted practice at home, and develop self reliance as practitioners. often do we hear about an outreach event entitled 'An Exciting Evening of Examining Buddhist Ethical Precepts'?

Most Dharma outreach emphasizes meditation and special experiences, with nothing said about the ethical context of Buddhadharma.

Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Date: October 21, 2008 11:55PM

Thanks very much for all that you posted. NKT's web attacks of hate simply confirm I made the right decision. I will read up on everything you posted. At the moment, looking for a suitable Buddhist teacher. Don't so much care if it is the Tibetan tradition or another tradition anymore.

Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by: Tenzin Peljor ()
Date: October 22, 2008 05:50AM

Well. Yes, just look around and check out different places and teachers. Take time. Good Luck!

Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Date: October 22, 2008 08:51AM

For me what is so hurtful is... I see geshe kelsang and his wss people demanding apologies from people and saying people arent accountable, are liars. Saying the Dalai Lama should admit he is wrong. But this is over a theology issue...

on the other hand, geshe kelsang picked two successors who sexually abused a number of women. He has never apologized for making such bad decisions, or issued an apology for not moving faster, including in the case of nun who he admits in one of his own letters tried to kill herself due to sexual harassment from one of his successors.

if he is really compassionate, why can he not apologize to the victims of the leaders he appointed? this is what is confusing, and makes it hard for me to let go.

Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Date: October 22, 2008 09:17AM

The other thing that confuses me is on the blogs it now says Geshe Kelsang is against the tulku system, but while at Manjushri I met the tulku of his mother, who sat near the front during teachings etc. he even mentions how he found her in one of her books.
how do the NKT rank and file explain such inconsistencies?

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