Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: November 29, 2009 10:27AM
See [www.culteducation.com]
New Kadampa had generated some controversy.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.
1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
9. The group/leader is always right.
10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.
1. Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.
2. Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.
3. Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".
4. Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.
5. Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.
6. Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.
7. A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.
8. Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.
9. Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.
10. Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.
Do you presume that whatever is wrong with NKT is primarily due to problems with participants, rather than the responsibility of the organization and its leaders?
New Kadampa had generated some controversy.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.
1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
9. The group/leader is always right.
10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.
1. Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.
2. Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.
3. Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".
4. Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.
5. Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.
6. Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.
7. A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.
8. Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.
9. Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.
10. Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.
Do you presume that whatever is wrong with NKT is primarily due to problems with participants, rather than the responsibility of the organization and its leaders?
Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by:
whatisacult
()
Date: November 30, 2009 05:18AM
Well it is the responsibilty of the people in charge to ensure that they themselves & the people they give jobs are not acting like this yes. Thats why Im looking for a clear understanding so I myself could summarise the essential points. I dont have any job in the organisation but I believe once a document like that is made, everyone would study it including the current leader. Maybe they would dismiss it I dont know. If they did then probably the problems will continue. But if they try to understand why various aspects are causing problems for some people, then they can take action to stop doing those things that are causing people problems & make a new way of doing things that works for people better. They cant do that until its clear what changes would be required. Hence me asking the ex members.
Your list is a list of things those who are trying to do spiritual development find interferes with them causes them problems etc. Its a great list Im gonna study it thanks. But what Im trying to understand is -in a traditional tibetan Buddhism monastery would any of these things be happening.
So less break them down for my religious ethics document
1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
Ok Ive had a different idea lets focus on solutions. (I started off with an is the nkt doing this or isnt it & it seemed unproductive) The solution to this is to have a feedback system where the feedback is valued & considered properly & addressed both by the leader & its administrators.
Would this solve it? Lets try an example out. In any religious organisation where celibates are running the show if they have a sex scandal this is damaging so lets apply my solution.
feedback ignored- always someone speaks up in the early stages. By discounting their evidence the person with the hidden scandal will rise in the organisation & later when in a high position it will almost always come to light. At that time a lot of people will be affected. Most people will remember this scandal & think of how the person was hiding it, putting on a clean face. There will then develop 2 groups. The people trying to move on from the scandal & the people exposing it.
feedback listened to- before the person gets power the scandal is told. The person exposing it is LISTENED to & an investigation is done that establishes the truth. The accused clearly understands the catalogue of disasters that will come if they are dishonest & in caring for the repuation of the organisation cooperates with investigation.
Now I have mixed feelings & a few objections to both personally I think neither work. But I will present 10 religious ethics & then we can take each one at a time because I dont have the answers Im just trying to make something that might help.
2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
Again a feedback system that is not just a token gesture but genuine. Listening to feedback is a great protector of religious groups. If 1 out of 10 people are finding a problem then when you convert 1000 people, 100 of them will have a problem. So it is crucial to solve these problems & address these issues in the early stages.
3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
People want to see that their money is going where they are told its going. Im not sure about this one is there any organisations doing this correctly that have links on the web I could study? I reached the conclusion that it is wrong to take money from people in large amounts because later if they become unhappy they will resent the loss of money ie they cant move on with their lives if the debt is still there to remind them. Its not so much where the money is going as where its coming from. Well I imagine its both if the leader is in a palacial building with a huge entourage of servants.
The religious ethic (please comment & revise)
Do not take large amounts of money from individuals. Find an ethical way to fundraise that is not this method. Do not lavish the leaders & admins with luxury whilst the new boy grinds away in a servile manner. Do not spend fundraised money on other than you declared it was for.
So the outcome:
Advice ignored: Amongst the entourage of the leader, accountants & admins with time people naturally leave any organisation & a few are unhappy. Those people produce financial information they were privy to that is an embarrassment. All the raised money ends up being spent on defending the group in legal circles. People come away in debt & with a feeling of having being used for their money. Due to their debts they cannot move on as it is a constant reminder so they stay bitter & naturally begin to warn others.
Advice listened to: Although some people may become unhappy in certain circumstances and leave the organisation they will not feel like they were used for their money. They can move on & not have any debts to remind them of the organisation.
4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
ok this is a lot of scenarios so add to my ethic idea or maybe we need 2 ethics or more.
religious ethic (please comment & revise this one really needs input)
do not speak ill of the non believer. They are sponsoring your spiritual life, building your halls of worship. making the clothes you wear & providing a society in which all the things you need are given with ease. They are also supporting your religious freedom. Do not say they are degenerates, lower beings, foolish etc.
Always keep respect gratitude & valuing of the community. Keep good relations with neighbours and the community without any conversion agenda. Do not chastise people who want to read news & go outside & socialise. ( does this go against any traditional way of life?)
feel free to add advice ignored & followed scenario
5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
Ok this one I struggle with.
religious ethic (please comment & revise)
Do not coerce or pressure people in any way to convert so they then have to 'leave'. Do not let people take commitments/vows/contracts when they are not ready. People who have converted must be treated well if they choose to leave and not be put under any pressure to stay. They must be as free as a bird. Once they are outside they must continue to be treated well & respected with gratitude for their contribution before they left. If the philosophy is very different from world view then the person should be supported as they go back to their previous world view as it can be disorientating. Even traidtional religions hold a strong view of the world & it is hard to move to a non religious view.
feel free to add advice ignored & followed scenario
6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
Feedback?
7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
Follow the feedback ethic & you dont end up in this situation?
8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
Ahh what to do! Okl, people need to feel that they are good enough right from the start. If you are only good enough when you attain the goals of the religion then your gonna be unhappy the whole time your practicing. Im visualising people having their work criticised & well its belittlement & criticism that lead to this feeling coming from arrogance in senior people. Its something to do with the difference how you treat new people & converted people?
Religious ethic(please comment & revise- im far off the mark with this one)
Do not treat new people & visitors different from converts. If you wouldnt do it to a new person dont do it to a convert & vice versa
Advice ignored:
converts are like slaves whilst new people are lavished & praised. Converts criticised & being judged on their personal life whilst new people are treated with tolerance & respect. Converts come away feeling used & like the love teaching is hypocrisy. This solves many, many problems.
Advice taken:
During the early stages of the organisation using this guideline of measuring converts and new people some inequalities in respect for people & valuing people are noticed. They are corrected & the organisation becomes healthy with people feeling treated well & happy. Then later, when it is bigger there are not big problems. It also prevents convertees getting special treatment because the equality extends to that a new person could be a potential elder in the future & the convertee was one a new person & also a beer drinking hedonistic normal person.
9. The group/leader is always right.
This is partly the no feedback problem & partly that the philosophy itself needs defending. The leader is supposed to be a complete success. When does this cause a problem is the ethical question. I dont know- help! The leader is damned if he admits a mistake & damned if he doesnt. If he does, hes not attained spiritually & if he doesnt, it comes out anyway. So the solution is to be perfect or to claim to be imperfect.
Some leaders are analysed with a fine tooth comb whereas others are left in peace. Followers misquote the leader to get certain results eg you must do all this work I have set out for you because the leader said work is important. The question is, why do some leaders not have these problems? Im stuck on this one. What about Jesus was he always right? I havent read the bible.
religious ethic (please comment & revise)
As a leader admit your mistakes. We are all on a spiritual journey together & seeing how you overcome problems will help us do the same. Purity is about your intention so if you are open to feedback on how to do things administratively this does not damage peoples faith in you as long as you have a good intention of cherishing & respecting other people both converts & non converts. Do not hide your faults & shortcomings. Do not discourage feedback by showing distress. If you are distressed by information, people who work for you will hide it from you. Do not teach arrogance by chastising people. Because then they will copy you. Do not be distant from your disciples as misunderstandings will develop if people cannot contact you. Do not dictate policy rather ask people for ideas. Of course the teaching cannot be edited but to administrate enforced control of peoples activities & speech leads to rebellion & harm to everybody, yourself, your admins, current members & former members.
feel free to add advice ignored & followed scenario
10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible
Ah interesting! What if the philosophy teaches that? Like scientology, who else is going to address the issues of the aliens (or whatever it is theyre claiming). Buddha himself taught his view was ultimately correct. So I imagine Buddha in 500ce would he say hes the only source of valid info? So again my question is when does this cause upset & harm.
Buddha taught there were Buddhas before him & that there are countless Buddhas from whom we could recieve valid info we just cant see them. Bet that sounds crazy to the moderator lol. BUT Buddha didnt have a teacher appear. He sat under a tree & remembered his knowledge from former lives & worked to develop it.
Ok the harm factor is about power struggles between leaders of sects. Whats the solution? To stop having power struggles between sects I guess.
Religious ethic (this one is a mess lol- suggestions please!)
Do not pressure other sects to follow your methods, each sect has their own way. If another sect is pressuring you then show them this document. The only time to interfere in another sects business is if members of the other sect ask you for help. At that time help in accordance with their wishes if it is ethical. Do not belittle other sects as you do not know if they have secret more advanced instructions that surpass yours. If another sect is being unethical they will culminate many ex followers raising protest. Therefore the issue will automatically be resolved between the sect & its ex members. Therefore there is no need to criticise other sects as nature will take its course. The sect will have to adapt & stop upsetting people. If you think your sect is better than other sects you might be able to say this without it corrupting your heart but when everyone starts copying you & saying it and it becomes the norm what will happen? If your sect is supreme then everything will confirm . blah blah this is too long can anyone help?
feel free to add advice ignored & followed scenario
what happened in my group is that we were told that the books are a complete set of instructions. In the early days many people read lots of new age & other sects books. They then tried to combine all that knowledge into an opinion of their own. The organisation leaders concluded after talking to many people that Buddhism was getting mixed with a lot of other stuff & so the actual meanings Buddha taught were being changed & new meanings were being given. So the organisation & leader went to another idea. To give the correct instructions of Buddhism & say not to mix the meanings with other books. The message developed to do not read other books. So there are 2 issues:
Mixing a religion with other meanings & teaching a new version- is this ok? Eg If I say as a christian that mohammed was a christian & christians should rely upon the quran because it works for me, and then I go onto a pulpit & start preaching a mixture of the 2 religions. My own answer is that mixing is a religious freedom but to teach others the mixed version whilst not explaining that it is a mixed version & that it is not the traditional instruction is to create confusion about which version is the correct version. EG if we make a book that is a mixture of quran verses & bible then how can people know which is quran & which is bible.
This topic is a long debate & usually goes round in circles so we could take this one ethic & discuss all aspects. This post is an initial idea for ethics document & I hope you see my idea & that it can maybe help people. What do you think? Please provide ideas for editing the ethics & add ideas you feel I might have not realised
Thankyou
Your list is a list of things those who are trying to do spiritual development find interferes with them causes them problems etc. Its a great list Im gonna study it thanks. But what Im trying to understand is -in a traditional tibetan Buddhism monastery would any of these things be happening.
So less break them down for my religious ethics document
1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
Ok Ive had a different idea lets focus on solutions. (I started off with an is the nkt doing this or isnt it & it seemed unproductive) The solution to this is to have a feedback system where the feedback is valued & considered properly & addressed both by the leader & its administrators.
Would this solve it? Lets try an example out. In any religious organisation where celibates are running the show if they have a sex scandal this is damaging so lets apply my solution.
feedback ignored- always someone speaks up in the early stages. By discounting their evidence the person with the hidden scandal will rise in the organisation & later when in a high position it will almost always come to light. At that time a lot of people will be affected. Most people will remember this scandal & think of how the person was hiding it, putting on a clean face. There will then develop 2 groups. The people trying to move on from the scandal & the people exposing it.
feedback listened to- before the person gets power the scandal is told. The person exposing it is LISTENED to & an investigation is done that establishes the truth. The accused clearly understands the catalogue of disasters that will come if they are dishonest & in caring for the repuation of the organisation cooperates with investigation.
Now I have mixed feelings & a few objections to both personally I think neither work. But I will present 10 religious ethics & then we can take each one at a time because I dont have the answers Im just trying to make something that might help.
2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
Again a feedback system that is not just a token gesture but genuine. Listening to feedback is a great protector of religious groups. If 1 out of 10 people are finding a problem then when you convert 1000 people, 100 of them will have a problem. So it is crucial to solve these problems & address these issues in the early stages.
3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
People want to see that their money is going where they are told its going. Im not sure about this one is there any organisations doing this correctly that have links on the web I could study? I reached the conclusion that it is wrong to take money from people in large amounts because later if they become unhappy they will resent the loss of money ie they cant move on with their lives if the debt is still there to remind them. Its not so much where the money is going as where its coming from. Well I imagine its both if the leader is in a palacial building with a huge entourage of servants.
The religious ethic (please comment & revise)
Do not take large amounts of money from individuals. Find an ethical way to fundraise that is not this method. Do not lavish the leaders & admins with luxury whilst the new boy grinds away in a servile manner. Do not spend fundraised money on other than you declared it was for.
So the outcome:
Advice ignored: Amongst the entourage of the leader, accountants & admins with time people naturally leave any organisation & a few are unhappy. Those people produce financial information they were privy to that is an embarrassment. All the raised money ends up being spent on defending the group in legal circles. People come away in debt & with a feeling of having being used for their money. Due to their debts they cannot move on as it is a constant reminder so they stay bitter & naturally begin to warn others.
Advice listened to: Although some people may become unhappy in certain circumstances and leave the organisation they will not feel like they were used for their money. They can move on & not have any debts to remind them of the organisation.
4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
ok this is a lot of scenarios so add to my ethic idea or maybe we need 2 ethics or more.
religious ethic (please comment & revise this one really needs input)
do not speak ill of the non believer. They are sponsoring your spiritual life, building your halls of worship. making the clothes you wear & providing a society in which all the things you need are given with ease. They are also supporting your religious freedom. Do not say they are degenerates, lower beings, foolish etc.
Always keep respect gratitude & valuing of the community. Keep good relations with neighbours and the community without any conversion agenda. Do not chastise people who want to read news & go outside & socialise. ( does this go against any traditional way of life?)
feel free to add advice ignored & followed scenario
5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
Ok this one I struggle with.
religious ethic (please comment & revise)
Do not coerce or pressure people in any way to convert so they then have to 'leave'. Do not let people take commitments/vows/contracts when they are not ready. People who have converted must be treated well if they choose to leave and not be put under any pressure to stay. They must be as free as a bird. Once they are outside they must continue to be treated well & respected with gratitude for their contribution before they left. If the philosophy is very different from world view then the person should be supported as they go back to their previous world view as it can be disorientating. Even traidtional religions hold a strong view of the world & it is hard to move to a non religious view.
feel free to add advice ignored & followed scenario
6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
Feedback?
7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
Follow the feedback ethic & you dont end up in this situation?
8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
Ahh what to do! Okl, people need to feel that they are good enough right from the start. If you are only good enough when you attain the goals of the religion then your gonna be unhappy the whole time your practicing. Im visualising people having their work criticised & well its belittlement & criticism that lead to this feeling coming from arrogance in senior people. Its something to do with the difference how you treat new people & converted people?
Religious ethic(please comment & revise- im far off the mark with this one)
Do not treat new people & visitors different from converts. If you wouldnt do it to a new person dont do it to a convert & vice versa
Advice ignored:
converts are like slaves whilst new people are lavished & praised. Converts criticised & being judged on their personal life whilst new people are treated with tolerance & respect. Converts come away feeling used & like the love teaching is hypocrisy. This solves many, many problems.
Advice taken:
During the early stages of the organisation using this guideline of measuring converts and new people some inequalities in respect for people & valuing people are noticed. They are corrected & the organisation becomes healthy with people feeling treated well & happy. Then later, when it is bigger there are not big problems. It also prevents convertees getting special treatment because the equality extends to that a new person could be a potential elder in the future & the convertee was one a new person & also a beer drinking hedonistic normal person.
9. The group/leader is always right.
This is partly the no feedback problem & partly that the philosophy itself needs defending. The leader is supposed to be a complete success. When does this cause a problem is the ethical question. I dont know- help! The leader is damned if he admits a mistake & damned if he doesnt. If he does, hes not attained spiritually & if he doesnt, it comes out anyway. So the solution is to be perfect or to claim to be imperfect.
Some leaders are analysed with a fine tooth comb whereas others are left in peace. Followers misquote the leader to get certain results eg you must do all this work I have set out for you because the leader said work is important. The question is, why do some leaders not have these problems? Im stuck on this one. What about Jesus was he always right? I havent read the bible.
religious ethic (please comment & revise)
As a leader admit your mistakes. We are all on a spiritual journey together & seeing how you overcome problems will help us do the same. Purity is about your intention so if you are open to feedback on how to do things administratively this does not damage peoples faith in you as long as you have a good intention of cherishing & respecting other people both converts & non converts. Do not hide your faults & shortcomings. Do not discourage feedback by showing distress. If you are distressed by information, people who work for you will hide it from you. Do not teach arrogance by chastising people. Because then they will copy you. Do not be distant from your disciples as misunderstandings will develop if people cannot contact you. Do not dictate policy rather ask people for ideas. Of course the teaching cannot be edited but to administrate enforced control of peoples activities & speech leads to rebellion & harm to everybody, yourself, your admins, current members & former members.
feel free to add advice ignored & followed scenario
10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible
Ah interesting! What if the philosophy teaches that? Like scientology, who else is going to address the issues of the aliens (or whatever it is theyre claiming). Buddha himself taught his view was ultimately correct. So I imagine Buddha in 500ce would he say hes the only source of valid info? So again my question is when does this cause upset & harm.
Buddha taught there were Buddhas before him & that there are countless Buddhas from whom we could recieve valid info we just cant see them. Bet that sounds crazy to the moderator lol. BUT Buddha didnt have a teacher appear. He sat under a tree & remembered his knowledge from former lives & worked to develop it.
Ok the harm factor is about power struggles between leaders of sects. Whats the solution? To stop having power struggles between sects I guess.
Religious ethic (this one is a mess lol- suggestions please!)
Do not pressure other sects to follow your methods, each sect has their own way. If another sect is pressuring you then show them this document. The only time to interfere in another sects business is if members of the other sect ask you for help. At that time help in accordance with their wishes if it is ethical. Do not belittle other sects as you do not know if they have secret more advanced instructions that surpass yours. If another sect is being unethical they will culminate many ex followers raising protest. Therefore the issue will automatically be resolved between the sect & its ex members. Therefore there is no need to criticise other sects as nature will take its course. The sect will have to adapt & stop upsetting people. If you think your sect is better than other sects you might be able to say this without it corrupting your heart but when everyone starts copying you & saying it and it becomes the norm what will happen? If your sect is supreme then everything will confirm . blah blah this is too long can anyone help?
feel free to add advice ignored & followed scenario
what happened in my group is that we were told that the books are a complete set of instructions. In the early days many people read lots of new age & other sects books. They then tried to combine all that knowledge into an opinion of their own. The organisation leaders concluded after talking to many people that Buddhism was getting mixed with a lot of other stuff & so the actual meanings Buddha taught were being changed & new meanings were being given. So the organisation & leader went to another idea. To give the correct instructions of Buddhism & say not to mix the meanings with other books. The message developed to do not read other books. So there are 2 issues:
Mixing a religion with other meanings & teaching a new version- is this ok? Eg If I say as a christian that mohammed was a christian & christians should rely upon the quran because it works for me, and then I go onto a pulpit & start preaching a mixture of the 2 religions. My own answer is that mixing is a religious freedom but to teach others the mixed version whilst not explaining that it is a mixed version & that it is not the traditional instruction is to create confusion about which version is the correct version. EG if we make a book that is a mixture of quran verses & bible then how can people know which is quran & which is bible.
This topic is a long debate & usually goes round in circles so we could take this one ethic & discuss all aspects. This post is an initial idea for ethics document & I hope you see my idea & that it can maybe help people. What do you think? Please provide ideas for editing the ethics & add ideas you feel I might have not realised
Thankyou
Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: November 30, 2009 08:10AM
Whatisacult:
Based upon your response it seems:
1. NKT is a totalitarian organization with no meaningful accountability to the general membership through democratically elected government.
2. There is no meaningful financial transparency and wherever the money goes it is not detailed in any specific formal reporting and/or annual disclosure.
3. Whatever "feedback" is given, the leadership has no obligation whatsoever as mandated by bylaws to recognize or act upon any of it.
Based upon your response it seems:
1. NKT is a totalitarian organization with no meaningful accountability to the general membership through democratically elected government.
2. There is no meaningful financial transparency and wherever the money goes it is not detailed in any specific formal reporting and/or annual disclosure.
3. Whatever "feedback" is given, the leadership has no obligation whatsoever as mandated by bylaws to recognize or act upon any of it.
Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by:
whatisacult
()
Date: December 01, 2009 03:12AM
moderator so you dont think this idea I have has any value?
It just seems like 99% of the discussion goes around in circles ie
your organisation has this fault
no it doesnt
yes it does
no it doesnt
yes it does
Im simply trying to get something useful out of all this. NKt & ex NKT are people on 2 sides of a fence. But both sets of people have seen various group dynamics AND are mahayanists. So my idea was to ask the ex nkt what they think. They can see certain things from their side & me from my side so if we both pull together what we see I think our knowledge of the dynamics of religious groups could be used to produce such a document. So my question to you is. Do you think such a document would be of any value?
It just seems like 99% of the discussion goes around in circles ie
your organisation has this fault
no it doesnt
yes it does
no it doesnt
yes it does
Im simply trying to get something useful out of all this. NKt & ex NKT are people on 2 sides of a fence. But both sets of people have seen various group dynamics AND are mahayanists. So my idea was to ask the ex nkt what they think. They can see certain things from their side & me from my side so if we both pull together what we see I think our knowledge of the dynamics of religious groups could be used to produce such a document. So my question to you is. Do you think such a document would be of any value?
Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by:
whatisacult
()
Date: December 01, 2009 04:27AM
I actually went to a mormon church today. A jehovahs witness is knocking on our door harrassing my mother so I went to make a complaint. I was told they are another church. I dont know if that was true. Anyway they tried to get me to pray to god even though I made it clear that I am a Buddhist & had simply come to log a complaint. They also got me to take the book of mormon home. I know the NKt isnt perfect but if someone came to our centre to make a complaint & they were of another sect we would not give them our books or ask them to reconsider their beliefs & pray with us. I was pretty much forced to do all 3.
That document above is for all religions sects & cults to tell them what is unethical & point out clearly what unethical behaviour is. Its based on your list of 10. Its not principally advice for the NKT nor is a critique of the NKT. if you want my opinion on the nkt here it is
1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
sometimes
2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
questions yes ideas sometimes criticism for the most part no- this needs sorting yes its a problem
3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
I dont know. noone is being pampered except the ex lodro who organised that himself it was his own idea. In Tibetan Buddhism there are traditions of lavishing the leader but NKT does less of this than others although there is still the same tradition of viewing the principal very highly. The thing is Tibetan Buddhism have tradition of viewing certain teachers as 'holy beings' Dalai Lama is said to be Buddha Chenrezig ie someone who can emanate 1000s of bodies that pervade the whole world, has miracle powers, clairvoyance etc. SO Tibetan Buddhism has this dynamic of teaching to see the teacher as holy that is very confusing & technical & creates a confusion between Buddhism & cult definition. Someone who is seen as a human is taught to be seen as a Buddha (clairvoyance etc) So it is different from other religions where the supernatural powered leader is said to be an invisible deity eg God Allah Ganesh. So people are bowing to human beings. Making offerings to human beings. This creates problems if the human being is not holy but pretending to be, as you can see with the stories of Buddhist teachers in a variety of sects on your board
4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
many nkt live in cities & I think those people are down to earth whereas living closed off can create his effect & Ive seen it from time to time in NKT people yes. Its not right to feel that ordinary everyday life is an inferior way of life, because this thought leads to obstacles to proper practice of love. I havent seen any sign of impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions. Or FEAR of outside. What Ive seen is looking down the nose at people who choose to drink in pubs a bit & watch tv lots or just normal life.
But I think other religons do this too, they regard a non religious life as not as good as a religious way of life. My feeling is that this is wrong but normal.
5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
members & ex members are all connected on facebook. I never talk to ex members about buddhism I just chit chat & play games with them eg farmville. But I think that a small portion of people look down their nose upon people who leave. This is a big fault & its wrong. Those people in the nightclubs & hedonists are to be cherished equally to everyone else. And many people avoid those who are constantly talking negative about nkt. This I agree with. I listen to hear their feedback but I wont listen to it being repeated 100 times.
6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
This happens in the NKt too & is because feedback isnt set up or working.
7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
there are a few yes & if they had listened to feedback there wouldnt be as many. This feedback problem is needing to be addressed
8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
I dont feel this is the case from what ive seen. if you dont pat yourself on the back when you do something good like in the geshe bengungyal story (traditional tibetan story) then you wont feel good. You have to focus on your successes but not get puffed up its a fine balance & most relgiions have these 2 extremes. I havent seen hardly any chastising people if any at all. Some of NKt do need to remember to thank people more though. There is no humiliation exercises, confession sessions, embarressment tactics as part of the methodology of converting people.
9. The group/leader is always right.
This has been a problem. The leader has told us he has knowledge of buddhism but not knowledge of other topics like computers admin etc so to stop being so extreme thinking he is a Buddha (again the Buddhist traditional practice of prostrating grovelling etc to a human is part of this) He said stop thinking I have clairvoyance & taking my ideas on admin computers etc to such an extreme. Also he reduced the amount of worshipping a human in our organisation. When other tibetan lamas came they were shocked & told us we should be doing all this grovelling & extensive servile behaviour & people started trying to do it but our leader said its not appropriate for europe & USA. BUT there is indeed in the past a series of mistakes been made because people were being extreme & developing various understandings about how & when you view a teacher as a Buddha(clairvoyant miracle levitating person etc). Some people have got a bit carried away with it. But as for the leader not letting people disagree with him there is some evidence of that online yes & he has changed some things that people have disagreed with. Hes stubborn in some areas but not others. Eg lucy james sacking story he was stubborn. But you need to understand hes a Tibetan monk. The Lamas over there were living in palaces made of gold with people fawning over them all day. He has toned it down a huge amount and to come from a background like that & try to develop a balanced relationship of teacher student when you have seen everyone else doing servant master is a big challenge. Perhaps his letters etc are a bit sharp but I think this is habits from Tibetan monasteries that have rubbed off on him. I met a tibetan non NKT monk & within minutes I was so extensively told off & so sharply I felt very intimidated. The culture in tibet is very strict. Thats my opinion maybe I danced around the topic I dunno
10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
this has been an impression people are getting from 2 things. That only commentaries by the leader are in the centres & that he has from time to time said that tibetan Buddhism is having problems & that the lamrim teachings are not being studied in the geshe degree. He says his experience in the tibetan monasteries is was that it was like university. Ie that the majority of monks disrobed once they completed the degree so they were taking it as a study topic rather than a way of life. He says its become too intellectual & if it was a way of life they would see the value of continuing as monks beyond completing the degree. So yes hes discrediting tibetan Buddhism. He also says the Dalai Lams has made some chnges to the instructions - like diting the bible basically & is part of a compaign to maintain the unedited instruction which is being wiped out. The edit is being enforced is what hes saying & people who dont accept the update are being harrassed.
he doesnt discredit any other traditions of Buddhism. he says his teacher is a valid source but that teacher has died & that anyone else who follows certain teachers is still a valid source of tibetan Buddhism. Those people are living students of pabongkha, trijang, song rinpoche. Ive checked & there are many people not following our leader but following these teachers. They have exactly the same instructions as us ive checked the translations. And I regard them as a valid source. if NKT vanished Id go to them to continue my studies. Thats just my opinion from what Ive seen
That document above is for all religions sects & cults to tell them what is unethical & point out clearly what unethical behaviour is. Its based on your list of 10. Its not principally advice for the NKT nor is a critique of the NKT. if you want my opinion on the nkt here it is
1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
sometimes
2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
questions yes ideas sometimes criticism for the most part no- this needs sorting yes its a problem
3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
I dont know. noone is being pampered except the ex lodro who organised that himself it was his own idea. In Tibetan Buddhism there are traditions of lavishing the leader but NKT does less of this than others although there is still the same tradition of viewing the principal very highly. The thing is Tibetan Buddhism have tradition of viewing certain teachers as 'holy beings' Dalai Lama is said to be Buddha Chenrezig ie someone who can emanate 1000s of bodies that pervade the whole world, has miracle powers, clairvoyance etc. SO Tibetan Buddhism has this dynamic of teaching to see the teacher as holy that is very confusing & technical & creates a confusion between Buddhism & cult definition. Someone who is seen as a human is taught to be seen as a Buddha (clairvoyance etc) So it is different from other religions where the supernatural powered leader is said to be an invisible deity eg God Allah Ganesh. So people are bowing to human beings. Making offerings to human beings. This creates problems if the human being is not holy but pretending to be, as you can see with the stories of Buddhist teachers in a variety of sects on your board
4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
many nkt live in cities & I think those people are down to earth whereas living closed off can create his effect & Ive seen it from time to time in NKT people yes. Its not right to feel that ordinary everyday life is an inferior way of life, because this thought leads to obstacles to proper practice of love. I havent seen any sign of impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions. Or FEAR of outside. What Ive seen is looking down the nose at people who choose to drink in pubs a bit & watch tv lots or just normal life.
But I think other religons do this too, they regard a non religious life as not as good as a religious way of life. My feeling is that this is wrong but normal.
5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
members & ex members are all connected on facebook. I never talk to ex members about buddhism I just chit chat & play games with them eg farmville. But I think that a small portion of people look down their nose upon people who leave. This is a big fault & its wrong. Those people in the nightclubs & hedonists are to be cherished equally to everyone else. And many people avoid those who are constantly talking negative about nkt. This I agree with. I listen to hear their feedback but I wont listen to it being repeated 100 times.
6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
This happens in the NKt too & is because feedback isnt set up or working.
7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
there are a few yes & if they had listened to feedback there wouldnt be as many. This feedback problem is needing to be addressed
8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
I dont feel this is the case from what ive seen. if you dont pat yourself on the back when you do something good like in the geshe bengungyal story (traditional tibetan story) then you wont feel good. You have to focus on your successes but not get puffed up its a fine balance & most relgiions have these 2 extremes. I havent seen hardly any chastising people if any at all. Some of NKt do need to remember to thank people more though. There is no humiliation exercises, confession sessions, embarressment tactics as part of the methodology of converting people.
9. The group/leader is always right.
This has been a problem. The leader has told us he has knowledge of buddhism but not knowledge of other topics like computers admin etc so to stop being so extreme thinking he is a Buddha (again the Buddhist traditional practice of prostrating grovelling etc to a human is part of this) He said stop thinking I have clairvoyance & taking my ideas on admin computers etc to such an extreme. Also he reduced the amount of worshipping a human in our organisation. When other tibetan lamas came they were shocked & told us we should be doing all this grovelling & extensive servile behaviour & people started trying to do it but our leader said its not appropriate for europe & USA. BUT there is indeed in the past a series of mistakes been made because people were being extreme & developing various understandings about how & when you view a teacher as a Buddha(clairvoyant miracle levitating person etc). Some people have got a bit carried away with it. But as for the leader not letting people disagree with him there is some evidence of that online yes & he has changed some things that people have disagreed with. Hes stubborn in some areas but not others. Eg lucy james sacking story he was stubborn. But you need to understand hes a Tibetan monk. The Lamas over there were living in palaces made of gold with people fawning over them all day. He has toned it down a huge amount and to come from a background like that & try to develop a balanced relationship of teacher student when you have seen everyone else doing servant master is a big challenge. Perhaps his letters etc are a bit sharp but I think this is habits from Tibetan monasteries that have rubbed off on him. I met a tibetan non NKT monk & within minutes I was so extensively told off & so sharply I felt very intimidated. The culture in tibet is very strict. Thats my opinion maybe I danced around the topic I dunno
10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
this has been an impression people are getting from 2 things. That only commentaries by the leader are in the centres & that he has from time to time said that tibetan Buddhism is having problems & that the lamrim teachings are not being studied in the geshe degree. He says his experience in the tibetan monasteries is was that it was like university. Ie that the majority of monks disrobed once they completed the degree so they were taking it as a study topic rather than a way of life. He says its become too intellectual & if it was a way of life they would see the value of continuing as monks beyond completing the degree. So yes hes discrediting tibetan Buddhism. He also says the Dalai Lams has made some chnges to the instructions - like diting the bible basically & is part of a compaign to maintain the unedited instruction which is being wiped out. The edit is being enforced is what hes saying & people who dont accept the update are being harrassed.
he doesnt discredit any other traditions of Buddhism. he says his teacher is a valid source but that teacher has died & that anyone else who follows certain teachers is still a valid source of tibetan Buddhism. Those people are living students of pabongkha, trijang, song rinpoche. Ive checked & there are many people not following our leader but following these teachers. They have exactly the same instructions as us ive checked the translations. And I regard them as a valid source. if NKT vanished Id go to them to continue my studies. Thats just my opinion from what Ive seen
Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: December 01, 2009 09:32AM
Whatisacult:
You appear to be here as an apologist to defend NKT.
Meaningful accountability means checks and balances mandated through democratically elected governance and bylaws.
NKT doesn't seem to have that.
You cite no specific detailted disclosure regarding group finances offered through published reports made public.
Apprently NKT has none to offer and the group's finaces remain essentially a mystery.
You have "danced around" crucial points.
And that's what apologists frequently do.
You appear to be here as an apologist to defend NKT.
Meaningful accountability means checks and balances mandated through democratically elected governance and bylaws.
NKT doesn't seem to have that.
You cite no specific detailted disclosure regarding group finances offered through published reports made public.
Apprently NKT has none to offer and the group's finaces remain essentially a mystery.
You have "danced around" crucial points.
And that's what apologists frequently do.
Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by:
whatisacult
()
Date: December 01, 2009 09:59AM
well I dont know the finances Im just an attendee Im not on the staff or admin. All Im saying is I havent seen signs of anyones living luxuriously but maybe others have. I dont know if there are any published reports.
I just thought my idea might help.
I just thought my idea might help.
Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by:
Tenzin Peljor
()
Date: December 02, 2009 06:18AM
Wiac, I lack time for detailed discussion but maybe I can contribute with some points. When you say "What Im trying to say is that I am following instructions of Geshe Langri Tangpa, Geshe Chekawa, Lamrim of Atisha, Shantideva. And Chandrakirti is my ambition my goal!" I would like to add - if you follow exclusively NKT - you follow their instruction as presented by the NKT/KG. This means you see these teachings through the glasses of Kelsang Gyatso and NKT. You may also follow only a superficial understanding of their teachings and these teachings may have been presented to you in a too radical, a less differentiated manner. But to really know this there is no way than receiving teachings from qualified teachers outside of the NKT. Since NKT as a completely self-referential system, as long as you only follow NKT this approach may give you the feeling this may be "the truth" what they teach, but you may recognize outside of NKT that the presentation of NKT is rather superficial, lacks differentiation and is often black and white and rather fanatical. And here starts already the problem with NKT:
If the teacher presenting the teachings is not a valid teacher or his teachings are not genuine, if the teachings lack differentiation or are wrong, are mixed with bias and personal views, or are based on a black and white understanding and a lack of deeper knowledge or even mixed with mind poisons (e.g. the teachings aim to keep the listener in the organization or to prevent that they go to other Buddhist teachers because the teacher is pride and feels, only he himself is the only genuine Buddhist teacher, then there are right from the start a lot of problems, especially for those who lack genuine knowledge what Buddhism, and especially the complex Tibetan Buddhism is all about, and how the behaviour, knowledge, modesty and humbleness of other Buddhist teachers is pervading them.
„What I want to know is how are people getting harmed, what is causing it?“ When the teachings are mixed with mind poisons and lead towards Nihilism or distortions of the teachings about the teacher-student-relationship, or to rejection and perversions of conventional reality (see the vile Dalai Lama attacks as one example), when they lead to pride and stupidity which prevent to realize what is correct and what is not correct, and when those teachings lead you to loose your freedom to go to other teachers, to receive teachings from other masters etc. then this can be considered to be harmful, can‘t it? Think about why the most promising spiritual children of Kelsang Gyatso, Gen Thubten and Gen Samden (both his announced successors), ended spiritual totally corrupted - not only this, Kelsang Gyatso covered up the abuses (and thereby prolonged them) until they became public in the internet.
The point is that many ex-NKT are convinced that „there is something rotten in Denmark“ or the „root is poisoned, hence the tree, the leaves and the fruits are poisoned“. But to recognize this poison and how it came into the own mind is not easy - especially for beginners who are just spiritual hungry and may be greedy for every spiritual food what is praised as being „pure“ etc. Those effected by the poisonous food may not be able to recognize it or may lack the brave to face what is going on in the own mind: some improvements but also some corruptions etc. how to put this all together? (NKT will say it is your negativity if you have doubts and also that it may be a "purification process" and exactly at this point the teachings go more and more into the direction of a "brainwashing". However, all this is a subtle and difficult to recognize process...)
I am not sure if your post is honest or just "damage control" of NKT. Until today NKT has not excused to the members they have damaged but instead they attack almost every critic or person who holds a different view than themselves as a „disgruntled ex-member“ or somewhat „unstable mental person“ „aggressive“ „homeless“ „liar“ etc. and instead of listening to them, NKT leadership and NKT members discredit critics or people who hold different beliefs than NKT on their „name and shame list“ in a rubric „behind the lies“ on their „new kadampa truth“ site, throwing the blame back to the critic as they have always done. Even if you may really try to be honest, NKT and their leadership is not. And how can honest discussion start if perception of events and modes of conduct are so different as it is indicated on your post: you claim „But now people are much calmer & more sensible & down to earth.“ how on earth can this be true taking only into consideration the slanderous, noisy and angry attacks against the Dalai Lama and even Buddhist organizations like ASA? (In the last campaign NKT was far more calmer than in the present one.) Sensible? Interesting. What I see in some parts of your post is rather a confirmation how I know NKT / NKT members: perception of oneself and the perception of others about NKT / NKT members are the opposite - they are completely different; what NKT see as white, Buddhists outside NKT see as black, what NKT see as black is seen outside of NKT as white, not to speak about gray tones and colors... It is difficult to find a basis for discussion here. If you / NKT members believe the Dalai Lama is a liar and a hypocrite, a non-spiritual mundane politician who destroys the pure Buddhadharma, and those who see his qualities are deluded, while contrary to this NKT is the pure realm of Vajrayogini with a pure leader free from any fault and full of intelligent and pure practitioners [who often think they know the Dharma better than the masters outside of NKT], what is the point of discussion? Where there is a basis for it? There is no basis for discussion I think. What would be a good basis for discussion then? The wise masters I met outside of NKT only shake their heads to show their sadness and disagreement with what NKT is doing. How sad to be looked at with pity by the wise!
I think - to make it short for today (before 11th Dec. I have no time to write more) - the issue is mainly about a valid recognition or insight if NKT is helpful or harmful, if the leadership is based on valid Buddhist teacher(s) who is/are genuine and who has/have integrity.
I think, the key to understand all of what critics say and what NKT say lies in the ability of correct discrimination and being able to look from different perspectives and putting things together, and the capacity to discriminate this correctly based on knowledge. So it is, I think, really a good idea that you open up and try to get a broader perspective of how cults are defined etc. The key point to get it right seems to me: a good knowledge of Buddhism, relying on one’s intuition, being brave to question things and one’s own perceptions and views, without being attached to sides - this means to be unbiased. Based on knowledge and open unbiased investigation one will understand the situation/facts as they are, free from to many projections which derive from either attachment, aversion or ignorance.
So for your journey to find out what‘s going on let me conclude here with Je Tsongkhapa’s advise:
(Lam Rim Chen Mo, p 75ff, Snow Lion Publications)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2009 06:23AM by Tenzin Peljor.
If the teacher presenting the teachings is not a valid teacher or his teachings are not genuine, if the teachings lack differentiation or are wrong, are mixed with bias and personal views, or are based on a black and white understanding and a lack of deeper knowledge or even mixed with mind poisons (e.g. the teachings aim to keep the listener in the organization or to prevent that they go to other Buddhist teachers because the teacher is pride and feels, only he himself is the only genuine Buddhist teacher, then there are right from the start a lot of problems, especially for those who lack genuine knowledge what Buddhism, and especially the complex Tibetan Buddhism is all about, and how the behaviour, knowledge, modesty and humbleness of other Buddhist teachers is pervading them.
„What I want to know is how are people getting harmed, what is causing it?“ When the teachings are mixed with mind poisons and lead towards Nihilism or distortions of the teachings about the teacher-student-relationship, or to rejection and perversions of conventional reality (see the vile Dalai Lama attacks as one example), when they lead to pride and stupidity which prevent to realize what is correct and what is not correct, and when those teachings lead you to loose your freedom to go to other teachers, to receive teachings from other masters etc. then this can be considered to be harmful, can‘t it? Think about why the most promising spiritual children of Kelsang Gyatso, Gen Thubten and Gen Samden (both his announced successors), ended spiritual totally corrupted - not only this, Kelsang Gyatso covered up the abuses (and thereby prolonged them) until they became public in the internet.
The point is that many ex-NKT are convinced that „there is something rotten in Denmark“ or the „root is poisoned, hence the tree, the leaves and the fruits are poisoned“. But to recognize this poison and how it came into the own mind is not easy - especially for beginners who are just spiritual hungry and may be greedy for every spiritual food what is praised as being „pure“ etc. Those effected by the poisonous food may not be able to recognize it or may lack the brave to face what is going on in the own mind: some improvements but also some corruptions etc. how to put this all together? (NKT will say it is your negativity if you have doubts and also that it may be a "purification process" and exactly at this point the teachings go more and more into the direction of a "brainwashing". However, all this is a subtle and difficult to recognize process...)
I am not sure if your post is honest or just "damage control" of NKT. Until today NKT has not excused to the members they have damaged but instead they attack almost every critic or person who holds a different view than themselves as a „disgruntled ex-member“ or somewhat „unstable mental person“ „aggressive“ „homeless“ „liar“ etc. and instead of listening to them, NKT leadership and NKT members discredit critics or people who hold different beliefs than NKT on their „name and shame list“ in a rubric „behind the lies“ on their „new kadampa truth“ site, throwing the blame back to the critic as they have always done. Even if you may really try to be honest, NKT and their leadership is not. And how can honest discussion start if perception of events and modes of conduct are so different as it is indicated on your post: you claim „But now people are much calmer & more sensible & down to earth.“ how on earth can this be true taking only into consideration the slanderous, noisy and angry attacks against the Dalai Lama and even Buddhist organizations like ASA? (In the last campaign NKT was far more calmer than in the present one.) Sensible? Interesting. What I see in some parts of your post is rather a confirmation how I know NKT / NKT members: perception of oneself and the perception of others about NKT / NKT members are the opposite - they are completely different; what NKT see as white, Buddhists outside NKT see as black, what NKT see as black is seen outside of NKT as white, not to speak about gray tones and colors... It is difficult to find a basis for discussion here. If you / NKT members believe the Dalai Lama is a liar and a hypocrite, a non-spiritual mundane politician who destroys the pure Buddhadharma, and those who see his qualities are deluded, while contrary to this NKT is the pure realm of Vajrayogini with a pure leader free from any fault and full of intelligent and pure practitioners [who often think they know the Dharma better than the masters outside of NKT], what is the point of discussion? Where there is a basis for it? There is no basis for discussion I think. What would be a good basis for discussion then? The wise masters I met outside of NKT only shake their heads to show their sadness and disagreement with what NKT is doing. How sad to be looked at with pity by the wise!
I think - to make it short for today (before 11th Dec. I have no time to write more) - the issue is mainly about a valid recognition or insight if NKT is helpful or harmful, if the leadership is based on valid Buddhist teacher(s) who is/are genuine and who has/have integrity.
I think, the key to understand all of what critics say and what NKT say lies in the ability of correct discrimination and being able to look from different perspectives and putting things together, and the capacity to discriminate this correctly based on knowledge. So it is, I think, really a good idea that you open up and try to get a broader perspective of how cults are defined etc. The key point to get it right seems to me: a good knowledge of Buddhism, relying on one’s intuition, being brave to question things and one’s own perceptions and views, without being attached to sides - this means to be unbiased. Based on knowledge and open unbiased investigation one will understand the situation/facts as they are, free from to many projections which derive from either attachment, aversion or ignorance.
So for your journey to find out what‘s going on let me conclude here with Je Tsongkhapa’s advise:
Quote
Je Tsongkhapa
„The defining characteristics of the student who relies upon the teacher
Aryadeva states in his Four Hundred Stanzas (Catuh-sataka):
"It is said that one who is non-partisan, intelligent, and diligent
Is a vessel for listening to the teachings.
The good qualities of the instructor do not appear otherwise
Nor do those of fellow listeners."
Aryadeva says that one who is endowed with the three qualities is suitable to listen to the teachings. He also says that if you have all these qualities, the good qualities of one who instructs you in the teachings will appear as good qualities, not as faults. In addition, he says that to such a fully qualified person the good qualities of fellow listeners will also appear as good qualities and not as faults.
It is stated in Candrakirti's commentary that if you, the listener, do not have all these defining characteristics of a suitable recipient of the teachings, then the influence of your own faults will cause even an extremely pure teacher who instructs you in the teachings to appear to have faults. Furthermore, you will consider the faults of the one who explains the teachings to be good qualities. Therefore, although you might find a teacher who has all the defining characteristics, it may be difficult to recognize their presence.
Thus, it is necessary for the disciple to have these three characteristics in their entirety in order to recognize that the teacher has all the defining characteristics and in order then to rely on that teacher.
With respect to these three characteristics, "nonpartisan" means not to take sides. If you are partisan, you will be obstructed by your bias and will not recognize good qualities. Because of this, you will not discover the meaning of good teachings. As Bhavaviveka states in his Heart of the Middle Way (Madhyamaka-hrdaya):
"Through taking sides the mind is distressed, Whereby you will never know peace."
"Taking sides" is to have attachment for your own religious system and hostility toward others'. Look for it in your own mind and then discard it, for it says in the Bodhisattva Vows of Liberation (Bodhi-sattva-pratimoksa):
"After giving up your own assertions, respect and abide in the texts of the abbot and master."
Question: Is just that one characteristic enough?
Reply: Though non-partisan, if you do not have the mental force to distinguish between correct paths of good explanation and counterfeit paths of false explanation, you are not fit to listen to the teachings. Therefore, you must have the intelligence that understands both of these. By this account you will give up what is unproductive, and then adopt what is productive.
Question: Are just these two enough?
Reply: Though having both of these, if, like a drawing of a person who is listening to the teachings, you are inactive, you are not fit to listen to the teachings. Therefore, you must have great diligence. Candrakirti's commentary says "After adding the three qualities of the student to the two qualities of being focused and having respect for the teaching and its instructor, there are a total of five qualities."
Then, these five qualities can be reduced to four:
(1) striving very diligently at the teaching,
(2) focusing the mind well when listening to the teaching,
(3) having great respect for the teaching and its instructor, and
(4) discarding bad explanations and retaining good explanations.
Having intelligence is the favourable condition that gives rise to these. Being non-partisan gets rid of the unfavourable condition of taking sides.
Investigate whether these attributes that make you suitable to be led by a guru are complete; if they are complete, cultivate delight. If they are incomplete, you must make an effort to obtain the causes that will complete them before your next life. Therefore, know these qualities of a listener. If you do not know their defining characteristics, you will not engage in an investigation to see whether they are complete, and will thereby ruin your great purpose.“
(Lam Rim Chen Mo, p 75ff, Snow Lion Publications)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2009 06:23AM by Tenzin Peljor.
Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by:
Tenzin Peljor
()
Date: December 02, 2009 07:02AM
Whatisacult, by glancing quickly through the exchange and discussion with rrmoderator, it seems you are a rather unconventional NKT follower, who tries really to be open and to get a better understanding of what is going on without defending everything. Well, this is a very good basis for discussion, I think.* Since I lack time and there are enough other people (Ex-NKT) who can discuss with you, I asked 3 friends from the New Kadampa Survivors Yahoo Group if the can show up here to discuss with you points you wish to know or to discuss. However, your investigation turns out: I wish you good luck, and all of you a calm and insightful discussion.
*Maybe I am wrong, I just recognized that at one point rrmoderator said that you are rather defending NKT.... Sorry for not having the time to read all of it. But maybe it is worthwhile to consider when discussion makes sense and when it is a waste of time. What basis is needed for an open analytical discussion which penetrates its subject?
Thank you rrmoderator for your very helpful input! Especially the ten warningsigns reflect well my experiences...
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2009 07:22AM by Tenzin Peljor.
*Maybe I am wrong, I just recognized that at one point rrmoderator said that you are rather defending NKT.... Sorry for not having the time to read all of it. But maybe it is worthwhile to consider when discussion makes sense and when it is a waste of time. What basis is needed for an open analytical discussion which penetrates its subject?
Thank you rrmoderator for your very helpful input! Especially the ten warningsigns reflect well my experiences...
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2009 07:22AM by Tenzin Peljor.
Re: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (New Kadampa Tradition)
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: December 03, 2009 12:07AM
Here is another way to test if a relationship or group is clean or not:
Is your loyalty reciprocated?
When you have given years of your life and vitality to serve the relationship or organization, does that other person or group remember Buddha's awareness of sickness, old age, and death?
After you have nurtured and cared for this relationship or for your guru, will YOU be cared for in your old age, as tenderly as you cared for your lover or guru?
Or will you be kicked to the curb and find yourself out on your own, in middle age or old age, expected to pay for your own medical care at the mercies of the fraying safety net.
Bad relationships and bad groups follow the use and dispose model.
Only the guru gets care and compassion. You, the followers, are used and then disposed of when you no longer generate wealth or prestige for the group.
Your loyalty goes unreciprocated, and if you dare to point this out, you are accused of harboring afflictive emotions.
In real monasteries, the old and ill are cared for, not kicked out. And the differences in rank are there to create a community that supports the practice of everyone, no matter how humble their role.
Those who are rich and beautiful and young are not given favor at the expense of the poor, the elderly and humble.
Is your loyalty reciprocated?
When you have given years of your life and vitality to serve the relationship or organization, does that other person or group remember Buddha's awareness of sickness, old age, and death?
After you have nurtured and cared for this relationship or for your guru, will YOU be cared for in your old age, as tenderly as you cared for your lover or guru?
Or will you be kicked to the curb and find yourself out on your own, in middle age or old age, expected to pay for your own medical care at the mercies of the fraying safety net.
Bad relationships and bad groups follow the use and dispose model.
Only the guru gets care and compassion. You, the followers, are used and then disposed of when you no longer generate wealth or prestige for the group.
Your loyalty goes unreciprocated, and if you dare to point this out, you are accused of harboring afflictive emotions.
In real monasteries, the old and ill are cared for, not kicked out. And the differences in rank are there to create a community that supports the practice of everyone, no matter how humble their role.
Those who are rich and beautiful and young are not given favor at the expense of the poor, the elderly and humble.
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