Judy & newagesurvivor,
I only quickly wanted to touch back on the reasons why health is/has become such an overriding issue (as it also has been in mine for the last few years) as I feel & understand, Judy, it was one of the original purposes for you to start this thread at the outset.

Although I am cautious to apply a "one-size-fits-all methodology 'reasoning' approach" that would surely leave either one of you wanting & wondering where this is going as it pertains to your individual health history, I can only share what I know & have learned from my own experience & having found a common thread in your (as well as my) accounts of what I would carefully call "being too much in one's head", i.e., not sufficiently connected to our heart, or, as might be more appropriately referred to here, our emotional-feeling nature.

Certainly, if one is a (former) journalist, or as in NAS's case, a scientifically oriented person, there is a tendency to be out of touch, maybe & even if 'only' on an un-/subconscious level, wary of the emotional side of our personality (it certainly was the case for me - it was my survival defense mechanism for the longest time, and while it certainly was very useful & came in 'handy' during my work life, it also was what cut me off from a deeper, better ability to understand my own emotional reactionary pattern).

I have observed this quite often that individuals who have a difficulty dealing with their feelings (acknowledging, accepting, allowing & just plainly respecting them as a part of their whole psychological make-up - for we are not just "head beings"), also, 'by default' & almost as if on 'auto-pilot' tend to ignore their body's needs, only to have their body at some later stage, 'protest' for not having been given the appropriate attention as & when it was 'called for'.

As excellent & most perfectly that analytical capacity for observation of outside matters (be that the topic in question or the subject matter to be scientifically researched) works for the majority of our waking time & can serve their purpose when directed towards the 'project at hand', it often, for some peculiar reason, seems to be somewhat ineffective when needing to apply it to ourselves to 'observe & better understand our own processes'.

'Intellectuals', or people that are by natural inclination, the more rational, deductionary personality type (as, for ex., a scientist would, I assume, 'operate' in, in order to arrive at their conclusion through repeated & multiple tests & exams), do often not allow enough space for the feeling nature because it makes them feel out of control & also, somewhat uncomfortable for that precise reason, which creates an unconscious kind of 'flight' back into familiar terrain - into our heads/minds - if only, to be back 'in control'.

Mind over matter can be very effective unless it is taken to the extreme opposite end of the spectrum (the other of course being the emotional wreck or emotionally out-of-control 'whack').

Thus, one of the consequences of this overemphasis of the intellectual module can very well 'manifest' themselves by the body "conking out" & "refusing to function" unless we begin to pay attention to it, by taking time, or, as in some cases, being forced to do so by circumstance.

Again, I repeat this might not necessarily be a 'one-for-all' kind of rule to apply to every individual because every body & everybody is different. I can only state my own experience which I have not only noticed in myself but also in others who have suffered physically & were forced to take "time out".

Most of our illnesses or physical ailments (symptoms) have their origin on one or more psychologically unresolved difficulties, issues, a.s.f. It might also be genetically linked, or some other seriously mysterious origin. But I have come to realise that the world we live in doesn't give us much room to care for our soul - our heart...

And for me, as simple as it gets is, that if the heart is sick (i.e., we haven't healed parts & wounds from our past that we might have completely stored under 'de-classified' but which haven't really been taken care of as properly as we might have thought), it will try & tell us so in various forms & 'disguises' (warning signs) time & again over a longer period of time or by plain simple "rude wake up calls" that leave us no choice but to withdraw from the 'hubub' of running the hamster mill, on the assumed concept of "I function without blinking twice".

It is but a proposition to give this some thought. I certainly discovered in my psychotherapy process as well as my clinical therapy that there were a lot of unresolved issues that I hadn't been aware of for donkey's years. I'd literally "shoved" them under the carpet. And there, they were festering away.

I'm not sure to what degree there is a possibility for the two of you to go down that road, nor am I saying that it might be the appropriate one for each of your individual situations, but I have certainly found that (like me) we often go off in the very opposite direction that would actually help us in real life, on a day-to-day basis, no hocuspocus, no unnecessary waste of resources (whether that be time, money or whatever else falls into the relevant category as it pertains to your own lives).

Of course, I am aware, too, that sometimes, 'life' just brings us to a crossroads of sorts after we have exhausted the other possibilities without getting anywhere nearer to making our life more bearable, easier on us as well as our immediate environment, be that partners, family or friends. But I have certainly realised that one cannot truly improve one's overall health unless one has gotten to the root of an issue & get rid of it, weeds n' all.

To just "chop away at the symptoms" (i.e., physical ailments) will not in of itself resolve or avoid the 'weed coming back up again'. How we go about this process is a very individual journey for each of us to carve out as we go along, but I feel that it is a very real factor in beginning of healing from the inside out, rather than from the outside inwards - even though most of us, as a consequence of being/feeling sick, have to start there.

I do feel that physical un-ease is the very last stage of 'manifestation' of (more often than not) a deeper lying issue. Biology in & by itself certainly plays a considerable role but my intuition & experience have shown me time & again with very different people from all walks of life & ages, that most of it has a psychosomatic source of not feeling well in one's own skin. Something isn't 'sitting right'.

Just my 2 cts on this particular issue.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2008 06:10AM by xythos.

In my case with enduring health problems it turned out that I had been living with toxic molds for years. I had been developing more and more allergic reactions and a hypersensitivity: I could smell mold. But nobody believed me, not even my husband, and this went on for years. He said I was just imagining things and that I should just pull myself up and stop being hysterical.

We were living as tenants and then there was massive repair being made in the bathroom. They made the repair without any proper protections, and that really made me sick. I could no longer breath, my lungs were like on fire, I was shaking with cold, my motoric skills were affected as well as my mind, I was itching and aching everywhere, I had hair-loss, I had heart trouble when in my bedroom (which was next to the bathroom), and so on. I tried to hang in there, since my symptoms were ‘just in my mind’, as everybody was telling me, including the doctors in the health center who found nothing wrong with me (they were searching for asthma, which I don’t have). Finally I went to the hospital, where they took thorax; the doctor looking at the pictures found nothing wrong there. So I was sent back home. The next day the doctor called me; she had remained worried because I appeared so extremely sick and so she had consulted an ex-ray specialist, who had seen signs of pneumonia in my lung. I then got the medication and advice from the doctor to move out immediately. But there was no place for me to go to; where would one go from one’s home? She then gave me the advice to sleep in front of an open window, and that was somewhat helpful.

I got a little better and then started cleaning all that dust that was everywhere, literally, it was in all our belongings, books, furniture, as well as in the house structures. Cleaning it seemed like an endless job and it took me months to wash all the textiles and clean everything else. And the dust just kept on coming from somewhere. Summertime was easier, but then with the winter coming and with the heating starting there appeared this terrible stink that also my husband was able to smell. Molds have their own life, and sometimes they are more passive, then coming active again. And that was the case with my health and my symptoms also.

We complained about the smell and all the problems to the owner, who promised to look into it but in fact did nothing. We waited. We complained again. Nothing happened. We complained to the city officials in the environmental health department, who did nothing. We complained again, and again, and so finally someone came and took an air example. That air example proved, according to them, that there was nothing wrong with the air indoors, as it was cleaner than outside. So once more I was just one hysterical bitch, now proven to be one. However, my husband had developed symptoms as well (after the repair work), and as I got so sick eventually that I just left the building and went homeless, he started to take action.

I got a place at the women’s shelter house, where I could get some rest in a healthier environment. All that time we had been and were looking for a new place to call our home, but finding one wasn’t easy, especially since we cannot afford high rents. My husband asked his parents for loan of money and he ordered a mold dog to make an investigation in our home. The dog barked almost everywhere, we received a report, and then we ordered a private mold-investigator to take proper tests. The material tests proved there were enormous amounts of different kinds of molds and bacteria in the structures. Then my husband sent those results to the city officials in the environmental health department; they came and took material examples and in addition to other species they found stachybotrys atra, probably the most dangerous species of toxic molds, and one that completely explained my symptoms. (Note: there is a lot of scientific proof that these heavy or black toxic molds cannot be caught with air testing, they need to be tested from the materials.)

Now, are you saying, Xythos, that I somehow manifested all that outside reality? Did I manifest my own symptoms, my husband’s symptoms, all those authorities who didn’t give a shit, and the toxic molds that were found in the building? Or maybe I’m having trouble with the English concepts, since I really don’t understand what it means ‘to manifest’ ‘reality’. Can you explain this to me, please.

I fail to see why analytic capacity and discursive reasoning should cut one off from the deeper side of life.

One common arguement heard in New Age circles is that scientific thinking takes the wonder out of life and that critical thinking and testing hypothesis is actually incompatible with spiritual endeavor.

One can combine the two and get the best of both worlds.

But one has to let science be done by the rules of science, not do bad science to back up one's theology. Real faith means living with contradictions between science and one's cherished religion.

The ones who contend that intellectual rigor is incompatible with spiritual endeavor may have a vested interest in trying to devalue critical thinking so that we will not think to question who they are, what thier backgrounds are (as in, did you serve time in jail, or are you setting up as a guru because you were a psychotherapist in another state and fucked your patients and got your license yanked?)

And were it not for science, many of us would not be alive and aware enough to argue about all this.

I would have died of a cardiac arrest my first night after being born.

And because of a medical scientist who figured out the right ratio of oxygen to use in incubators for premature babies, I am not blind.

And because of the work of bactriology and industrial chemistry, they came up with an antibiotic that saved my life when I had double pneumonia following influenza, two years ago.

Id done all the natural remedies, had taken nothing to break my fever and after five days and nights of high tempretures and drenching night sweats, I was getting worse, not better.

24 hours after my first antibiotic tablet, my temp dropped and I was able to breathe normally again. Without the stuff I either would have landed in the hospital, died, or both.

This entire article is a treat. Science doesnt take the fun or wonder out of life, at all.

Some male cuttlefish do drag and get the girls.

[www.nytimes.com]

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newagesurvivor
Now, are you saying, Xythos, that I somehow manifested all that outside reality? Did I manifest my own symptoms, my husband’s symptoms, all those authorities who didn’t give a shit, and the toxic molds that were found in the building? Or maybe I’m having trouble with the English concepts, since I really don’t understand what it means ‘to manifest’ ‘reality’. Can you explain this to me, please.

NAS, I am truly sorry if I upset you. I certainly didn't mean to add insult to injury & no, I didn't say you manifested your or your husband's symptoms. The primary message might have been that "a person 'manifested' this because of something that happened x years ago" - however, I also said that:

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biology does play a considerable role & "every body & everybody's different".

If I would truly 'believe' that we all create our own "illnesses", do you really think for one minute I would have taken the time to point out the variety outside influences of our toxic environment to Ex-NewRager, including noise levels to be a serious but often overlooked factor in adversly affecting our overall health?

The recent Irish exported dioxin poisoned porkmeat (two days ago) is a prime example of this.

Even today our health minister was making the precise point that because of where we are as well as our extremely tightly controlled imported national food chain, our country was one of the few that actually escaped the toxic porkmeat having made its way on our plates from abroad. (Our country has one of the highest standards of food import control I know of. It sure makes you relax a lot more knowing that a lot of what is 'common practice' in other countries is a strict 'no-no' around here.)

However, that was also why our health minister raised the very issue that a lot of people are getting cancer, experiencing a rise of allergies & health problems due to 'manufactured' (i.e. 'prepared', tampered with, or just plain bad) food that is anything but healthy. It's pure poison on a plate.

I wouldn't dream of 'pointing' the 'finger' at you for having had to put up with a badly isolated, not properly tended to & cared for appartment by the landlord/owners. Authorities are unfortunately most often not that interested in taking responsibility for their citizens' real problems - the truly genuinely interested gov't employees are, more often the exception rather than the rule.

What I was trying to convey (outside the 'new age paradigm') is, that certain physical conditions that may be 'manifesting' themselves are, aside from being genetically linked; i.e., there being a history for a certain condition that runs in your family) or, as I also mentioned, one's own biology playing a considerable role, it can (precisely because of a weaker immune system, for ex. lead to the body not being as well 'equipped' to deal with various forms of stress, be that physiological (incl. environmental), emotional, psychological, mental, or a combination of all of those.

As a result, the body is less likely to cope well with or, not at all with processing outside influences, and therefore, becomes more susceptible to getting ill as a result (i.e., the 'manifestation' of physical symptoms). Your case is one such example, as was the case portrayed in the movie Erin Brokovich (poisoned watersources from a chemical plant). Or the Brits' BSE scandal.

Furniture, painting (for your walls), carpets, bug sprays, asbestos, the Chinese toy industry - there are plenty of cases where the source of the individual's sickness is solely coming from outside themselves & has nothing to do with one's own 'belief system' or unresolved issues.

When I mentioned that it is through my own observation that I have seen people from all ages, races, genetic origins & walks of life share a similarity of having physical ailments in combination with psychological problems, the point I was trying to make is that although the physical malaise might be predominant, it is the various psychological factors that are at the root of the patients not being healthy.

I'm not sure whether this is any clearer. But I do distinguish between every body & everybody.

BTW, I read ND Walsch's CwG 1st book. I managed to get half-way through the 2nd book & I never began the 3rd book. When I saw that he was 'building' an "organisation" to 'bring the message' of CWG to "a larger public" I grew very suspicious & avoided any further material of his like the plague.

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corboy
I fail to see why analytic capacity and discursive reasoning should cut one off from the deeper side of life.

Well, that's you corboy. And it's a plus if you are able to combine all these abilities.

I used to work for bankers (& yes, way back before the whole profession's reputation went down the toilet), as well as lawyers & doctors. You can try & figure out which one comes closest to your quote...

I'd simply like to point out that both (investment) bankers as well as lawyers have an above-average ability for analytical capacity and, lawyers in particular, possess a highly developed & excellent capacity for discursive reasoning. Most excellent indeed.

As to integrating the spiritual, well....

One of our truly high-calibre nationally known lawyers verily said himself last week on national tv that "Opus Dei had brainwashed the country's highest-ranking member of our parliament".

One only would try to imagine such a statement made on US tv & most likely that individual would've been torn to shreds, banished & been subject to a hate campaign of vitriol & 'dubbed' as a "conspiracy nut" or some other 'loony bin' title as is so much the custom with similarly established figures in the US landscape that dare to open their mouth about the nebulous influences on most of the "out on the frontlines" 'celebrities' (that includes politicians given that most revved up individuals in the public eye are almost without exception, treated as 'celebs' by the American media)...

Yes, so, this, if you like, could very well fall into the above-mentioned category as to lawyers' being able to "integrate" rational, discursive analysis with the spiritual & mysterious forces (pun intended) that show up in our lives.

Those who manage to integrate each of the above as referred to in your statement are not exactly a given majority in an otherwise highly intelligent, very well educated & most decidedly very crafty professional body.

I have had the very great fortune of meeting true scientists (one, notably, I met during my first ayahuasca retreat in Brazil & who happened to work for both the NASA as well as CERN in CH & used ayahuasca primarily to find solutions for his work in nuclear physics). For whatever reason, I have had direct & immediate dealings with scientists from CERN in different countries & they were all very different in their personality make-up; i.e., from the purely rational, mechanical scientific outlook to those being more inclined to let their humanity shine through.

I remember one meeting in particular I was asked to take part in due to my linguistic dexterity (which, I feel, is getting rusty). It was an imposing meeting indeed - top notch scientists discussing matter & anti-matter as well as the building of the then not as yet completed LHC Hadron collider (2004) which was 'up & running' for a short time but then had to be stopped because of technical difficulties in autumn this year. Cutting edge meeting indeed. Pictures, photographs & analysis of the work & developmental progress of the 'project' at hand.

The most engaging of all these scientists working on re-creating the black hole & its matter-anti-matter thesis was, as I have said, the bloke I met during my retreat in Brazil. There are quite a few serious scientists who use ayahuasca within the context of their work even if that makes you cringe.

Again, genuine scientists are the most open, curious & truly enjoyable company to be in because they don't take anything for granted & they are open to all options of interpretation of the universe we live in. And they're easy to talk to, enaging, knowledgeable, funny & just great for conversation, learning & expanding one's worldview. Better yet, if, like this particular bloke, they speak 5 languages fluently (not having studied them, just picked them up during his many travels).

Excellent.

And beautiful.

An absolutely beautiful person (& I'm not talking phsycially although he was not a gorilla either). A true genius & yes, spiritual in that quirky way of his.

But, as I have said, this is more often the exception than the rule. There are few & far between.

I have another friend who also happens to be a scientist but who works in financial analysis. We can discuss matters that would, to a great degree, be most likely considered 'off' on this board because it's a taboo & considered way too radical (though, not 'extremist') for most people - just way out there.

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One common arguement heard in New Age circles is that scientific thinking takes the wonder out of life and that critical thinking and testing hypothesis is actually incompatible with spiritual endeavor.

One can combine the two and get the best of both worlds.

I will answer this with one of Albert Einsteins's quotes:

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"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."

Of course, he was, by all admission, an exceptional scientist, in a category of his own.

Note:

I haven't been around in "new age circles" in a long time. Maybe, if I do, it is once a year. And, that's about as much I can handle without wanting to do a "hit & run" for the exit.

Like I said, in the BK/ET thread, I can't stand the drivel for too long…

(What fitting initials! "ET" - "Extra Terrestrial" anyone?

All you need is a set of 'Spock' like ears & voilà! Now his followers can have their own genuine little garden gnome imported directly from Germany they can worhsip in the convenience of their own home! Troll puppets would probably sell well, too "Tolle the Trolle" - sounds kind of Scandinavian.)

Sorry, I digress... I just couldn't resist...

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But one has to let science be done by the rules of science, not do bad science to back up one's theology. Real faith means living with contradictions between science and one's cherished religion.

As Einstein himself said:

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"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."

And

"In order to be part of the sheepherd, one has to be an impeccable sheep first."

In the best of both worlds, one doesn't need 'religion' or the feeling of belonging to one faith or another.

Rather, one has the ability to carve one's spiritual relationship with the 'All-That-Is' without having to listen too much to what others think it is, determines or manifests itself as or by. And, in that context then, spirituality, logic & rationale find their natural niche without this in any way being in contradiction to turn towards science as circumstances or opportunities present themselves.

In that understanding & natural integrative way of life then, there is room for everything & it can co-exist harmoniously without having to be or create contradiction. 'Outlandish' ideas or concepts are then also, an opportunity to ponder but if they don't hold up to one's own criteria or, on the other hand, credibility; one can just as easily let go of them without it causing unnecessary headaches or turmoil.

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The ones who contend that intellectual rigor is incompatible with spiritual endeavor may have a vested interest in trying to devalue critical thinking so that we will not think to question who they are, what thier backgrounds are (as in, did you serve time in jail, or are you setting up as a guru because you were a psychotherapist in another state and fucked your patients and got your license yanked?)

And were it not for science, many of us would not be alive and aware enough to argue about all this.

Am I misinterpreting what I'm reading? I might, of course be wrong, but it seems as if you feel I 'attack' the rational model vs the emotionally based reactionary personality. Again, it must have been my cumbersome attempt to portray what I feel on a much deeper level, as mentioned in my examples above.

I am not in any way attempting to 'unmask' one 'value' over, or, in favour of another.

Everything has its value & its place in time & as necessary where we find ourselves on our individual process of development. Be that rational, logistical, religious, spiritual, medical, emotional or psychological – which continuously fluctuate from one or more levels interacting as a part of our whole Self.

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I would have died of a cardiac arrest my first night after being born.

And because of a medical scientist who figured out the right ratio of oxygen to use in incubators for premature babies, I am not blind.

And because of the work of bactriology and industrial chemistry, they came up with an antibiotic that saved my life when I had double pneumonia following influenza, two years ago.

And, in hindsight, would you not say that you were truly darn lucky to have had the best possible trained professionals coming to your aid & rescue when you were most in need? It is a great blessing indeed to have it had so quickly & timely at your disposal - which, in the US, is far from being a given.

I remember being in hospital for a few days in Atlanta, GA. The bill at the time came to a stately $10,000 (never mind the devalued 2008 US currency). Regular people cannot afford 'good' science.

It is the most wonderful tool to have at hand & it can render the most unbelievable service. But boy, it ain't for those who are uninsured in the richest country on the planet. As far as I know, they're still struggling to make ends meet down in Louisiana.

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Id done all the natural remedies, had taken nothing to break my fever and after five days and nights of high tempretures and drenching night sweats, I was getting worse, not better.

24 hours after my first antibiotic tablet, my temp dropped and I was able to breathe normally again. Without the stuff I either would have landed in the hospital, died, or both.

I have the odd impression that you seem to think or believe that I am a 'closet new ager' but won't say so.

And, if I were coming more from my previous reactionary model prior to having undergone solid, scientifically based therapy - no lackadaisical LGAT fraud therapy that would never see the light of day this side of our immediate vicinity - I would have probably bitten your head off by now.

I am not joking.

I have, by all attempts & purposes managed to avoid going there (& I am still working on this, knowing that I am far from where I would like to be but I am trying the best I can), not only because I have come to understand the source of my anger, but moreover because I consciously desist from feeding a destructive energy that does nothing to allow further exchange without extreme difficulty. But I have never had a fear of so-called 'uppity' bonzos, gonzos, gurus or such like.

That fraudulent 'LGAT therapies' are even possible in America is enough to be grateful that our medical ethics & morale control system doesn't allow for as nearly as much room this side of the pond to destroy people's lives & their psyche to that degree.

I am not saying that there haven't been cases of serious maltreatment by therapists or doctors this side (England, much like the US, has a broader range of alternative therapies but at the same time more 'tolerance' for such quackery) but I do feel that there is a tighter check on professionals being bound by the Hippocrates code of ethics.

The healthcare system is imperfect everywhere on the planet, but reading about the abuse on this message board that seems to be more common rather than the exception truly makes me feel relieved that I am not exposed to it to that degree.

I certainly ran my shoes off, too, to find a therapist as well as a clinic with sound reputation – which wasn't easy because of my instinctive mistrust born from having been betrayed one time too many by too many people I was supposed to trust for too long over a period of almost four decades.

Still, I was truly very lucky to 'stumble upon' an excellent, no BS therapist who knew what he was doing & didn't even try to pull a funny one on me. Otherwise I would've just walked out & returned home. Period.

Last but not least, I feel that the ideal to strive towards is an ability to apply rational, deduction analysis, logic & recursive reasoning, emotional integration coupled with a natural spiritual inclination that doesn't need 'guru' worship or a kind of "stamp of approval" by members of a given belief system, faith or conviction.

This last quote by Einstein maybe sums up the integration & challenge to bring about the change not just within ourselves but through our individual process of gaining more insight of the complexity of our existence & trying to make sense of it all within the larger context.

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"A human being is a part of a whole, called by us "universe" - a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."

That things are interconnected is self-evident. Things are not, however, interconnected quite arbitrarily – except for in ‘new age mumbo jumbo’ (well, of course there are other examples of making arbitrary connections and claim them to be ‘the truth’, e.g. all sorts of tyrannies do that). That mind has the capacity to affect body is self-evident, but in more humane approaches than ‘new age mumbo jumbo’ it also is recognized that the condition of the body affects the mind. That is why normal humans treat sick fellow humans with special respect, kindness and care. That is not how new age mumbo jumbo treats anyone who’s having a rough time. New age mumbo jumbo is too busy to get to the ‘blame the victim’ bullying style, so they just ignore that other side of the matter.

To ignore matters that really matter, e.g. social matters, is one common theme in new age. And so, according to them, poverty has nothing to do with man-made power structures, capitalism, greed of the greedy ones, but the poor somehow manage to do it to themselves, starvation exists not because of unjust distribution of wealth (man made) but because of those starving to death themselves: by some twisted logic they are the cause of everything that is happening to them. Not the real greedy ones, not humanity as whole (we being so satisfied with these power structures that we do nothing to destroy them but are maintaining them, but of course that is what we do collectively and blaming any one good hearted soul is not what is meant here at all).

And so this new age mumbo jumbo ignores the responsibility of those responsible, and the blame is put on those who are not responsible. As if an attacker wouldn’t be responsible for attacking, but instead the attacked one is said to have ‘attracted’ the attack or to have created the attack, and the babble goes on and on. That is not at all what I was taught at the aikido class (or women’s self defence classes) when I was young. It’s completely the opposite.

Belief in authority is another common theme in new age. And so it’s so easy for them to accept anything that the authority says, and that explains a lot of the parrot-like behaviour (in cultural anthropology that is referred to as cultural dissemination) that can be seen there. Belief in authority doesn’t require knowledge, or understanding, all it requires is exactly the opposite: ignorance. And I find it very funny (but in fact I’m crying) that something that is based on ignorance is called ‘higher wisdom’. If they are as wise as they claim to be, so then it must mean that they are disseminating whatever false statements deliberately and knowingly. I would like to think that that is not the case. I would like to think they are not aware of what they’re doing, and that would make them “not really responsible”, like someone who has done wrong to another because of insanity. But if they are really aware of all the pain that they are causing, and still doing it… well, wouldn’t that make them pure evil? Or is it just one of those things, when good intentions pave the road to hell, when people who think they are doing something good in reality do exactly the opposite.

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xythos
NAS, I am truly sorry if I upset you.

Apology accepted, dear Xython, whoever you are. And yes, you are right about me getting upset about your implying that the cause of suffering is ‘not being in touch with one’s heart or emotions’ rather than, like in my case, because of the neglects of those responsible. That does hurt, I can tell you from my own experience. Were you aware when you wrote that piece that it might upset me? Were you aware of what you were doing? Of course you weren’t, since you didn’t mean “to add insult to injury”. But do you see the new age pattern here, in your articulations?

It should not be treated as an unquestionable given that analytic thought undercuts spiritual endeavor or is incompatible with it.

This stance that analytic thought undercuts spiritual endeavor was actually promulgated by Vivekananda and V's rhetoric and writings have become mightily influential and permeate the thought patterns of the New Age scene. It has been said that most Hindus even in India now get their understanding of Hinduism from Vivekanananda.

But Vivekananda had a social and political agenda. He had a Western education, was dismayed by how fallen India was in the 19th Century and like many deeply thoughtful Indians, wanted to find a way to rescue Hinduism from what they feared was social stasis and find a way to make Hinduism support social activism and social reform, rather than contemplative quietism, which was much more the ancient tradition.

Vivekananda wanted also to break the hold of the Brahmin ritualists and scholars whom he saw as keeping India stuck in oppressive and out of date social arrangements.

All this was laudable but Vivekananda's ideology came at a cost. He wanted to break the hold of the Brahmins who were scholars, and who taught from a long long tradition in which intellectual effort and scholarshipp were considered PART of spiritual effort and part of yoga, not as undercutting spiritual progress.

So Vivekananda emphasized the primacy of personal experience, and devalued analytical thought, logic and scholarship and his stance that
logic and analytic thought subvert spirituality has becoming an unexamined and very corrosive ingredient in the New Age scene.

Here is some information. It was from a man who served time as a disciple of a famously abusive guru ( Adi Da ) and who became a Sanskrit scholar in order to make sense of it.

[kelamuni.blogspot.com]

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Vivekananda treats the teacher-as-realized-sage and the teacher-as-pundit as if it the two are mutually exclusive.

Of course, the claim that none of the great teachers of India was ever an exegete is mere hyperbole that flies in the face of the fact that recognized masters like Shankara and Abhinavagupta were also great commentators.

***It is worth noting that Vivekananda is here addressing a largely Western audience who would have been, for the most part, ignorant of Indian intellectual and religious history.

(Vivekananda wrote differently depending on whether the intended audience was Western or Indian. And when Vivekananda was active, he was the first person in the West to teach anything about Hinduism, so his excited Western audiences were solely dependent on him for information.C)

Several related themes emerge from a critical reading of Vivekananda. Many of these themes reappear in the writings of later scholars of Indian thought, such as T.M.P Mahadevan and Chandradar Sharma, and in the writings of later Neo-Vedantins and perennialists, such as Sarvapella Radhakrishnan, Aurobindo Ghose, Paramahamsa Yogananda, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Swami Rama, Adi-Da (Franklin Jones), Georg Feuerstein, and Ken Wilber.

Some of the more prominent of these themes involve various dichotomies. These dichotomies are used toward particular rhetorical effects by Vivekananda.

(From Corboy: And via Vivekananda, this dichotomy between guru (as custodian of true spirituality) vs the pandit/scholar has slipped, unexamined and unquestioned into New Age spirituality, via the yoga circuit. Most people teaching yoga are using Vivekananda's catagories and dont even know they imprisoned within the belief system of just one man who filtered Hinduism through his own concerns and his own biases--biases which had unintended consquences)

The various methods of explaining the dicta of the scriptures are only for the enjoyment of the learned. They do not attain perfection; they are simply desirous to show their learning. From "The Teacher of Spirituality." Selections, p. 54-55.

Here, Vivekananda appears to dismiss the tradition of expounding upon the purport of the Upanishads and the consideration of that purport. But it is actually only the exposition of a particular class of teachers that Vivekananda dismisses here -- that of the "Pundits." The exposition of the "Gurus," and apparently Vivekananda's own interpretation of Vedanta, remain intact.

The contrast between the "Guru" and the "Pundit" in Vivekananda's writings is closely related to another theme, the contrast between "book learning" and "experience."

This distinction sheds light on how Vivekananda understands the distinction between the "Guru" and the "Pundit." In the following passage Vivekananda combines the two dichotomies and forms a contrast between knowledge derived from books, which "serves the intellect," and esoteric initiation from the Guru, which "serves the spirit."

(Corboy notes: A century after V's arrival in the US in 1893, this distinction between that which serves the intellect and that which serves the spirit has become an unexamined commonplace on the New Age circuit, when it is an importation from just one person who happened to be the first swami to arrive in the US. V made it seem he represented all of Hinduism but HE DID NOT. But...his audiences thought he did. They had no contextual information, no Internet, and travel to India was expensive and very difficult.)

Vivekenanda wrote:
"This quickening impulse, which comes from outside, cannot be received from books; the soul can receive impulse from another soul, and nothing else. We may study books all our lives, we may become very intellectual, but in the end we find that we have not developed at all spiritually... In studying books, we sometimes are deluded into thinking that we are being spiritually helped; but if we analyse ourselves we find that only our intellect is being helped, and not the spirit. That is why almost every one of us can speak most wonderfully on spiritual subjects, but when the time of action comes, we find ourselves so woefully deficient. It is because books cannot give the us that impulse from outside. To quicken the spirit, that impulse must come from the another soul. That soul from which this impulse comes is called the Guru, the teacher...." From "The Teacher of Spirituality." Selections, pp. 51-51.

I. The Guru vs. the Pundit (Pundits are scholars)

One of the more interesting dichotomies put to use by Vivekananda is the contrast between the "Guru" and the "Pundit."

In his writings, Vivekananda delineates a well marked distinction between the two. He associates the Guru, or "true teacher," with the world renouncers of India -- the samnyasins, parivrajakas, bhikshus, shramanas -- while he identifies the Indian pandita as a kind of substandard, corrupt and even false teacher. Echoing Rammohan Roy, Vivekananda writes:
In our country, the imparting of knowledge has always been through men of renunciation. Later, the Pandits, by monopolising all knowledge and restricting it to the Tols, have only brought the country to the brink of ruin. India had all good prospects as long as Tyagis (men of renunciation) used to impart knowledge.... From "Conversations." Selections, p. 384.

In this passage, Vivekananda indirectly addresses the charge that it is the renunciatory attitude that is responsible for India's ills by countering that all that is good in the Indian tradition can be traced back to its great spiritual personages, i.e., its world renouncers. The allusion to the "downfall" of the Hindu tradition and its association with the panditas brings to mind Rammohan's idea of the degeneration of Hinduism and his contention that the "selfish pundits" have concealed the true purport of Vedanta by way of the "dark curtain of the Sungskrit language."

II. Book-learning vs. Realization

The theme of "booking learning" recurs frequently in Vivekananda's writings. Its contrast with "experience" parallels, and indeed invokes, the empiricist distinction between "knowledge by description" and "knowledge by acquaintance."

Vivekananda's use of the contrast between "book learning" and "experience" also invokes the traditional Indian distinction between higher knowledge (para vidya) and lower knowledge (apara vidya).

(In contrast to Vivekananda)But in Shankara's works, the distinction between higher and lower knowledge is not used to contrast "book learning" with "experience," even though this is a typical interpretation given by modern scholars. Rather, Shankara uses the distinction to distinguish knowledge that concerns ritual action from soteriological knowledge, that is, knowledge that leads to the heaven realms (brahma loka) from knowledge that leads to ultimate release (moksha). He does so primarily to make known his break with the jnana-karma-samucaya Vedanta of his contemporaries.

Shankara does not exclude the Vedas from the domain of higher knowledge since the Upanishads, which give soteriological knowledge, fall within the range of the Vedic revelation. Shankara does not exclude the Vedas from the domain of higher knowledge since the Upanishads, which give soteriological knowledge, fall within the range of the Vedic revelation. For Shankara, the "higher knowledge" forms a kind of continuum from hearing the words of scripture (sruti) to final realization (samyagdrashana).

(So for Shankara, Final Realization is not incompatible with 'hearing (and presumably studying and analysing )the words of scripture(sruti)

Finally the punchline. This is about authority.

While Vivekananda's relationship towards the Vedas remains ambiguous, it is at least clear that, for Vivekananda, the authority of the Vedas does not have to do with their being anonymous revealed scripture (shruti) per se, but with their being the "record" of the religious experience of certain individuals. In other words, it is not scripture here that grounds and authenticates personal religious experience, but religious experience that grounds and authenticates scripture.

What this does, in effect, is wrest control away from the perceived traditional mediators of authority, represented here by the "Pundits," and sets up in their stead a new priest-craft, the "Gurus," whose claim to authority is based not on the Veda but on their own personal experience. The oligarchy of the "Pundits" and their self-validating scripture has effectively been replaced by the tyranny of the Guru and his whimsical "experience."

So, here we are. Exalting experience at the expense of critical thinking leaves us not liberated, but ultimately, subordinate to someone who can claim some 'experience' that is better and more evolved than ours.

And when critical thinking is devalued and seen as an impediment to spirituality rather than as part of spiriutality, we have no way to even question why it should be assumed that analytic thought is an impediment to spiritual pratice, rather than being part of it.

Dont be a prisoner of a belief system that has permeated the New Age scene and gotten into your skull without your even knowing the name of the fellow who propagated it, its content, or what his agenda was.

New Age survivor wrote"

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To ignore matters that really matter, e.g. social matters, is one common theme in new age. And so, according to them, poverty has nothing to do with man-made power structures,

Worse, in NA circles, even trying to talk about power is often considered negative.

Try it some time. You'll be made to feel like you've ripped a fart at a society party.

And, just because one can only afford access to scientific medicine if one happens to be in the right social class in a technically advanced country does not mean science itself is at fault.

It means society has a problem that needs to be fixed.

That we have to think consciously about power, social structures and that doing that is part of spirituality. Some Roman Catholics have attempted to do exactly this by coming up with Liberation Theology. There are valid arguments that too much of Liberation Theologyis permeated with out of date Marxist catagories, but at least Liberation Theology was developed from a context in which intellectual endeavor was considered compatible with spiritual practice.

And...the ability to combine spiritulity with analytic thought will remain a rare capacity as long as arguements that analytic thought is incompatible with spiriutality remain commonplace and unexamined, and if it remains commonplace to teach people that they can only be spiritual after they've left their brains at the front door.

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corboy
Worse, in NA circles, even trying to talk about power is often considered negative.

Try it some time. You'll be made to feel like you've ripped a fart at a society party.

In my country farting at a society party would either be totally ignored (everybody pretending politely that nothing happened) or joked about (fart is fun! mentality). But maybe I get your point (I'm not really sure of that :)

So.. Is it very common in the United States to totally exclude someone who farts? S/he farted so we'll just throw her/him out of the party! And while we're doing the throwing out we'll label her/him 'dark', 'negative', 'robot', 'soulless', or any other name suitable for us to be used for our enemy.

That is what they do in practice in very many new age circles to those who disagree, ask questions, or show any sign of 'not belonging here' (even if that sign is solely in the head of the out-throwers).

Back to farting. In my country it would be quite preposterous to throw anyone out of the party because of such minor and human behavior. It is generally acknowledged that every human being farts, it is just one of those things common to the human race.