karam-mudra:

Bye.

Great.

Physicists have been coping with New Wage snakes who misquote them and generate fancy pseudo science to back up snake oil claims.

Now it appears that brain researchers need to be careful and beware of culty types abusing their research to legitimize some guru's alleged specialness.

Any guru who goes around exhibiting PET scans or EEGs of his or her brain to prove how special he or she is--that person is operating from ego and worse, is using medical gadgetry to back up his or her claim to Special Powers.

Someone like that is an exhibitionist.

Neurologists and brain researchers will need to be advised to fact check anyone who wants to quote them, to make sure the person isnt shilling for guru or part of a pseudo science project.

I think with any study being quoted, that it is always good to read the original for yourself, as all to often , things can be lost in the translation. And unfortunately scientists themselves are like every other subset of humanity ie; some are more ethical than others.
A study, easily found on google scholar, in the Journal of General Internal Medicine called "Source of Funding and Outcome of Clinical Trials" stated that
"There was a statistically significant association between the source of the funding and the outcome of the study (p=0.002)".
They go on to suggest that "fear of discontinuation of funding should such studies be submitted" (negative studies) might be one reason for the fact that study results tend to please the people who paid for them..
Suppose things haven't changed that much since Roman times; it is still a case of "caveat emptor" or "let the buyer beware."

I'd like to make a few comments about the discussion with karam-mudra.

Hers isn't the first report I've come across by a woman accusing Nydahl of using hypnosis not only to gain personal sexual access but to make the woman offer herself to the Karmapa. (K-M didn't say this explicitly, but this is what it sounds like. This is what another woman has reported as well.) I think such accusations should be taken seriously, in view of the fact that they're beginning to turn up more and more on the internet. I've been told that hypnosis can't cause one to do anything unsafe, so I can't explain what's going on exactly, but reports like k-m's are worrisome. It's unfortunate that she wasn't able to be more clear about exactly what transpired.

Reporting "abuse" to the authorities isn't practical, because one can't prove one was hypnotized, or otherwise coerced into sex. How can you prove it was against your will? If rape can't be proven in court even with the results of a rape kit (the perp can always argue the sex was consensual, unless hospital staff reports the presence of injuries), how can anyone expect to be taken seriously when alleging abuse? A Taiwanese woman filed criminal charges in Washington State for abuse by a resident Taiwanese "living Buddha" in the Vajrayana tradition, but the case was thrown out. It never went to court. I agree that there need to be more cases of "lama abuse" filed with the police, and more publicity on the issue, but this is very difficult to do.

It's too bad that the non-English-speaking ex-DW members have trouble expressing their thoughts in English, especially when more technical vocabulary is needed to explain psychological states and so forth. I would hope the forum could have patience with such members.

This is the second report I've come across in just the last 2-3 months by a former DW member who talks about personality changes and psychological or psychiatric problems resulting from altered states of consciousness induced by Ole. There must be dozens of cases of this, but women are only now beginning to speak out via the internet.

Hi Mysstyk,

'I would hope the forum could have patience with such members.'

Even if the forum participants here wanted to, they are unable to adequately help people still in thrall to lying, conniving, conning, hypnotising gurus.
Such people first need to accept that they themselves are in need of personal outside help before any help can be extended--still believing the BS keeps them from that help and the revelation is always shocking, no matter how much patience is shown.
People who have some doubts of their own already can get a lot of help here.
It is good to recognise one's own limits--even in extending help.

Unlimited patience with obvious bullshit can be as much of a hindrance as a help. Personally, I still have that crap in my own head from many decades ago (no way of removing the neurons now) and I will not let any random anonymous person reactivate it in me--because then there would be two drowning people instead of one swimmer and another who has the opportunity of learning to swim.

And we all know the one about how you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Dang, overdosing on water metaphors today, maybe I should head for the nearest tap.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2011 01:19AM by Stoic.

I also have got a personal message to Karam-Mudra.
Karam-Mudra, I hope that you will stay within our on-line community and I want you to know that you are welcome.
I think what we are trying to do here is to get a handle of a diamondway shadow, which left traces in our lives and lives of others.
This is intellectually incredibly complex task, therefore every account, every report and every effort to understand it, matters. We are not here to cast stones.
Karam-Mudra welcome to our community. I want you to know that you are safe here and we accept you as you are; with all your burden of trauma and distress. You can rest assured that we respect your opinions, even if we cannot fully relate to your experiences.

Misstyk, it is difficult to find words in any language to express one's trauma. Sometimes we just don't have intellectual categories to express what happened to us; no matter the language.

I was once long ago in an 8 year psychological entanglement with a Christian spiritual director.

I was told by this man I had a special destiny, special capacities.

This disclosure only confused me and made me more dependant on him.

And I could not discuss it with anyone else for fear of ridicule, and thinking about it too much would have proved me egotistical and thefore unworthy.

My alleged special status also made me vulnerable to demonic assault (so I was told) and this guy arranged this bombshell disclosure for maximum psychological impact.

I say this because the only way I could free myself from this lingering influence was

1) Facing this man had no special powers himself and facing instead (I had lots of evidence later) that he himself was wounded and emotionally needy

2) That this man had failed to complete a necessary psychological training and instead had selected all his advisors on the basis of their telling him what he wanted to hear--and he had selected his own spiritual advisor because that man adored him and deferred to him.

3) I decided that I had to question the entire belief system that X and I were involved with and I chose to leave Christianity itself entirely. This is a decision that applied only to me, and I cannot advise anyone else.

Last but not least, I abandoned any belief that I had any special attainment. Instead I had to face that what I had been told was manipulative flattery. Later on there were plenty of times when I acted like a jerk and an asshole, and it was clear that I did not have the special attainments that this man said I did.


So, I faced that I was a fallible human being.

I faced that my former spiritual director was a falliable human being and after careful assessment of his career, I decided he had lacked the training and mental qualifications needed to function in his role

In short, I gave up any notion that I was special and any notion that my spiritual director had any special attaiment.

It took about 4 to 5 years for me to reach this point and part of this required working with a psychotherapist who was licensed and trained in this area.

Had I continued to believe there was anything special about me or my spiritual director I would have remained trapped.

The Stages of meditation come from this blog, from a dissertation written by Dr. Lois VanderKooi:

[downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.com]

Looks like a good thread, so I will be back when I have more time.

I would also like to echo the sentiments of Alexander and Misstyk regarding Karam-Mudra but also agree with Stoic's post.

I can't validate anyones supernatural experiences. As I have never experienced any of the phenomena Karam-Mudra alluded to, and can find no hard evidence to support her claims of super-sensory mind states, I must regard them with a fair amount of sceptisicm.

Regarding her claims of having being abused by Ole Nydahl... there are many reports of devotees being abused by their guru's so I know this type of thing takes place and therfore I am prepared to believe that there is some truth in her account. My own observations of Nydahl also leads me to believe she may well have been an unfortunate victim.

I would hope that Karam-Mudra does read the posts here from time to time and reflects upon them and that they might help her 'recover' from her encounter with Nydahl. I must add, however, that this requires seeing Nydahl for what he is and not how he would like you to see him. To believe that he is enlightened is dangerous and, in the quest for some spiritual clarity, may lead to accepting his bad behaviour as something other than it is.

If I believed there was a drive-through McDonalds on the far side of the moon then I would prefer be embarrassed into realising my error rather than embarrass myself by holding onto this false belief.

Steve

I can believe in supernatural experiences, only I call them altered states of consciousness, but I only believe them because I have experienced them.

I have talked with another woman who had dealings with Ol Nydahl, and she really had a hard time of it. Lamas know how to choose their victims, they know how to prepare them for the kill, so to speak. They are much like child predators in this regards. And I say, "Lamas" instead of "some Lamas" or "most Lamas", because for me there isn't a good guru/lama in the world. The very nature of the authoritarian nature of the way the system is set up, that is, putting the power in one person's hands, makes for abuse. A great book to read is: The Guru Papers, Masks of Authoritarian Power. It begins early one with the statement: "Power corrupts, and absolute power absolutely corrupts."

My heart goes out to Karam-mudra. Having been in Hinduism and Tibetan Buddhism, I understand what she feels to some degree because I have listened to other women who have been abused.