Hi Sceptic Watcher,

Thank you, I didn't know that Sharmapa had made this statement. Sharmapa is focussed on removing obstacles to Dharma for his students.
If it appears that obstacles exist in the way ex-DW people express themselves it is about causes and conditions rather that Sharmapa deciding to criticise the DW.
For the benefit of balance I could say that Lama Ole has also tried to control the Buddhist output of his students in a similar way.

It's a natural evolution for people to mature and leave one tradition for another, one teacher for another, one practise for another. It's usually a sign of development.

Hi Dariusb

You have been emailed privately because of your comments here?

I found your comments to be reasonable and moderate.

Unless the email came from a person who you regard as being mature and stable or unless they hold any reliable Dharma transmission perhaps it's not a big deal.

'Your view is BS my view is right?' If DW Lay teachers write these things, let alone think them, what does it say about working with mind?

We can't see how things are because of disturbing emotions, when we clear out these disturbing emotions we can see things more objectively.
You have cleaned out some old emotions that's why it seems so obvious now.

It's likely to be a sign that your practise has been successful!

My experience in London DW Sangha is one member is trying to steal lot of money from my husband who was member
She is angry ex-girlfriend from many years

We stop this thief and after leaders of centre are getting very angry
They invent stories to get other members to make threat to us
They tell lies to police and try make trouble
They make guilt trip and say we have bad karma

Girl who start this tell lies to leaders and they are believing her. In first they not check what is true and after they are making a big problem just for money. Is very unfair.

Dear Marta,

It is not unusual with the money. I know an occasion when there was a fund raising organised by the south centre (it is closed by now). When they started to count the money after they realised that some good amount was missing.
It could be anyone as Steve did not hide the money just let it be somewhere. Although they had suspicion that it was Maya's son who was suffering kleptomania that time. Obviously the money has disappeared and they "never talked about it". Like everything else got hidden under the carpet.
I think at the moment they are having a lot of problems within they organization and Marta please tell your husband do not give away any money. I always had suspicions the money stops in certain places and makes certain people just more relaxed in life.
My advice do not pay buy flowers or sweets to your friends (if you find there any) but do not give any money.

Some members of DWB display behaviour which I consider “cultish”. Some members but not all. I wish to make that clear to anyone who chances across this forum. Again, these are just my own personal observations and experiences but I think that the people I met who were/are “jockeying” for positions of influence within DWB certainly give DWB the cultish flavour I experienced.

I will re-iterate that I don’t think Ole set out to establish a personality cult but that a fair number of his devotees have built one around him. This does not mean Nydahl is exempt from criticism. His personal style attracts ‘dynamic’ people (I use the word dynamic to be polite) and these people seem to think that some of the things Ole talks about gives them the right to behave in a bad way because it’s the ‘crazy yogi’ way to do it. So when I have pointed out this behaviour is unacceptable it has been explained to me that I’m confused or I’m not developed enough to see the wisdom in the bad behaviour.

They are under the impression that as long as they believe their motivation is to spread the Dharma then it doesn’t matter if a few people get hurt in the process.
I don’t blame the people watching these posts from not engaging in the debate. I know that the general opinion is ‘don’t give them fuel’ and I applaud the wisdom. I have seen some members on different posts have an attempt at trying to justify the ‘odd aspects’ of DWB and really have only served to publicly demonstrate some of the skewed thinking which prompted ex-members to post their concerns on this forum.

It was my wish that by having my posts read by ‘the watchers’ from within DWB that they might have a look at themselves and consider if they have behaved in a positive or a negative way towards members who have had doubts and simply wanted some clarification. It appears that my wish isn't bearing fruit if the general consensus from within DWB is that the posts on this forum are ‘BS’. I think that the majority of contributions to this forum are well considered and measured responses to attitudes and behaviours that have offended.

I guess their wish is that if they don’t respond to the criticisms then the forum will ‘fizzle out’? I suspect that, given the new contribution from Marta, the controversy will run and run as the people who desire influence within DWB gain more influence. Once they attain their coveted positions then it’s very difficult for them to surrender their new ‘possession’.

To Marta, I would like to welcome you to the forum but sadly it is normally bad experiences that cause people to write here. I wish that you had no reason to write here and that your experiences had been good. It’s brave of you to use your real name also.

If you have evidence that someone has tried to steal money and others are making threats then perhaps you should contact the police. Actually, if you have evidence then you must contact the police.

All groups and organisations require money to function. I have no problem with this. I paid a monthly membership in Liverpool. It’s just that sometimes the sums of money become tantalisingly large and some people can find themselves wondering if “they will miss a couple of hundred pounds/euros if I take it”? It’s a fact of life that some people struggle and taking what doesn’t belong to them is often a quick fix. Sad but true. In Liverpool there was a donations tin that once had several hundred pounds in it. It just sat in the kitchen, unlocked. I admire the trust and honesty of the people who attended because to my knowledge no money was ever stolen.

If you feel you want to contribute money then this is fine but do not be ‘blackmailed’ into thinking the more you donate the faster you ‘attain’ enlightenment. You may well accumulate some merit but if this is your motivation then it kind of negates the process. Or so I believe.

Best wishes.

Steve

Quote
SteveLpool
Some members of DWB display behaviour which I consider “cultish”. Some members but not all. I wish to make that clear to anyone who chances across this forum. Again, these are just my own personal observations and experiences but I think that the people I met who were/are “jockeying” for positions of influence within DWB certainly give DWB the cultish flavour I experienced.

One thing that I noticed as a knock on effect to this was the amount of pressure put on "lower" members to conform, especially when they see how the "non-conformists" are treated by the more ambitious members.

More than any monetary investment, there is also the time commitment. If someone is halfway through their ngrondo and has already devoted several years to their practice they are understandably reluctant to put that at risk or feel they have to write off so many years of practice.

I remember Ole Nydahl being quite fond of the quote, "It is better to have lived one day as a tiger than a thousand years as a sheep." (Interestingly this quote comes from Tipu Sultan, a Moslem ruler of Mysore in the 18th Century). Unfortunately, my personal experience of DWB is that it tends to produce sheep.

I suppose when you join any group there is a degree of conformity implied. If you join the local kite flying group you express your interest in kite flying and may be asked to adhere to the club rules regarding the types of kites you are allowed to fly. By joining the group I guess you enter into a ‘contract’ of sorts. You accept them on face value but your experiences within the kite flying club may make you think differently in a couple of years.

My involvement in DWB was a little like this.

You might be asked to help create a club house for the local kite flying group. In your initial enthusiasm you dedicate time and perhaps money in the development of the club house. You somehow feel you are investing time in your own ‘hobby’. It may enhance your enjoyment of being a member of this particular kite flying group so you willingly participate.

The difficulty comes when you discover that perhaps the ideals of the kite flying group are at odds with yours. In this case you must make a decision, conform or leave. It’s sounds quite simple really.

But I think people get involved in Buddhism for very different reasons to the people who join kite flying groups. Sure, there is the sense of community, of being with like-minded individuals. DWB and the kite flyers have this in common.

I suspect people come to Buddhism because they feel at odds with the mainstream cultural mores, that society is somehow at odds with their world view. In this case the desire to belong is very strong. In a sense you feel as though you have finally found a place where people understand you. It is this fragility that I think DWB exploits. You are more likely to conform rather than risk being thrown out into the world where no one understands you again. This, combined with some teachers telling you that to question or oppose a Lama will bring you bad karma exploits any weaknesses an individual might have. Then, being told that ‘the fastest development’ comes from building centres and fund raising increases the fear of being ostracised. So you stay and your world view becomes narrower. You see things only in relation to DWB.

I felt I had found people who had a similar world view. I arrived at the door of my DWB centre because I felt ‘lost’. I regard this as my own personal weakness. I realise now I didn’t need them because regardless of your relationships/friendships we are all very alone and must face the world alone every moment of every day. In was prepared to bend a little in the wind within DWB but would not be told who I should adopt as a role model for enlightenment. I am an independent, free thinker or at least I struggle to be one every moment of every day. My refusal to conform is evidence enough of this I think. I don’t need to ask Nydahl for advice about the women I choose to date, or which country I should migrate to or even if I should have a tattoo or accept a certain job because he doesn’t know any better than I do about these life decisions. If you need to go to the ‘patriarch’ to seek advice on such things then you still have a lot of growing up to do.

My advice is that if you are in DWB or the kite flying group and are having doubts then ask yourself if it is your own fear and weakness that stops you from leaving. Meditate on the real reasons/feelings that keep you there. Trust yourself and your doubts, don’t wait to have them worn away until you conform. You can’t really conform because you face the world alone as an independent free thinker every moment of every day. You don’t need Nydahl or his travelling teachers to tell you this for €5-€10 a pop, while at the same time telling you that you need to become more involved in the group donating more of your time and money.

Find a teacher who really encourages you to be independent.

In hindsight they did me a big favour by 'ejecting' me. But I still oppose what I see is the manipulation of people who, under different circumstances, would avoid DWB.

Steve

It also struck me as very odd that those who were fully immersed in DWB had no friendships with people outside DWB beyond those with work colleagues.

Steve, you give a very honest and accurate appraisal. I would add that the same general processes you describe apply to almost any group, religeous or otherwise, where people interact regularly. These processes are not DWB specific. New arrivals at a "spiritual type" group are often searching for answers to problems in their lives and hope that the new found group can offer some much needed help in finding them. The danger is the group offers some help with some issues but at the cost of "swallowing whole" the new culture beliefs and traditions of the group. They then take their eye off the problems they originally arrived with and they remain unresolved while the new lifestyle or philosophy they have embraced takes over.The euphoria of belonging can give a sense that all of their problems have gone away. I am writing from my own perspective of course and luckily had enough independance of mind not to fall into these traps completely but the danger is real. On leaving DWB I was better able to deal with my own issues and take personal responsibilty for them. The cost was giving up the belief that some magical system of meditation would somehow help or substitute for real work on myself.

Some groups are more supportive than others, and some have a greater degree of tolerance. Some groups even welcome diversity and promote individual growth.

Earlier posts have told of how many DWB members were uncomfortable revealing their true feelings, doubts, or questions, and it seems as if the conditional nature of DWB membership would make them quite narrow in this respect.

This idea of taking "personal responsibility" would seem to be central to one's growth as a Buddhist, and yet this is the very thing that being a member of DWB would seem to limit.

In fact I would go further than that and claim that DWB is entirely self-serving in this respect, placing it's own interests above that of the individuals and of the development of their Dharma practice to such a degree that they are excluded, alienated and disenfranchised (the story of the Dublin group being a prime example). This is a betrayal of true Dharma and seems to cross the line between ordinary group cohesion and the tyranny of a cult.

Many groups have ideals and rules which serve to discourage those in power simply acting on their whims.
The mission statement of DWB - "Diamond Way Buddhism is built on an international network of friendship and idealism. We master the greatest challenges, because we: - all work together for the benefit of all beings; - make the best out of every situation, flexibly; - bear our responsibility, free from hierarchies."

Now, because this is simply untrue (there is a clear hierarchy and they act in their own self-interests at the expense of the benefit of all beings etc.) it opens up the possibility of abuse by those in power with their own self-serving agendas.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2011 06:21AM by suenam.