Hi dariusb.

I can’t speak for the others who post on this forum and their reasons for doing so. My reason is to provide an honest account of my experiences in the hope that anyone thinking of joining DWB will reconsider and look for an authentic Buddhist practice or, if they do decide to practice with DWB, they do so better informed and can investigate the group themselves. I chanced upon this forum a few years after I got involved with DWB and I recognised some of the things written here from my own experiences. At the time I decided I wanted to suspend judgement and really give practicing with them a “good go”. I did, and attended many talks like a good DWB practitioner. I donated many hours of my free time helping with the construction of the centre in Liverpool. I guided many meditations and was one of the main points of contact for newcomers and longstanding members.

I hope my posts here will help anyone who has bad experiences with DWB walk away from them or even better, not get involved. I don’t think any of us here can ‘change’ DWB. I just want to report my experiences and opinions in the hope that others will seek a genuine Buddhist practice.

I doubt we will get any response from the upper echelons of DWB. Ole has programmed his students to respond to those who are detractors of DWB by wishing them (us) well because they (we) are confused. I voiced my concerns about Liverpool with the founders of the Newcastle group in the hope we might enter into some discourse and get to the bottom of some of the cultish behaviour but they were silent. They did say they would raise the issue of my being told to leave (I couldn’t regard Nydahl as my root lama and was told by Malinowski that this was a prerequisite for practice at his centre) with the London big wigs. I have no idea if they did. I suspect that their conceit is the reason they refuse to comment here.

To John_Lpool.

If you’re the John I think you are, you jumped ship very early on. In hindsight I should have done the same. I remember us discussing the events at a phowa we attended in karma Guen. Enough alarm bells rang then, I just didn’t heed them. I hope you’re well.

Steve

The precepts listed are the very same ones that apply to anyone who practices in the Vajrayana lineages.

Both those lineages and Zen are Mahayana.

to dariusb...

I see the purpose of this forum to provide insight into our experiences which may help anyone struggling with DWB who is currently a member, and to provide information to anyone considering joining. Hopefully any DWB members reading this will at least ask certain questions and perhaps develop a more critical awareness. Given the lack of debate within DWB, it seems important to have a place such as this where such ideas can be shared more freely and without "party" censorship.

Personally I shifted traditions and found I did not need to ask for any advice as the teachings I received pointed the way forward for me and gave me the solutions I needed.
I think your idea to ask Shamarpa to open a UK centre is an excellent one.



to john_lpool

As far as I can remember Nydhal's version of "the way things are" can be summed up as; - boys are horny for girls, Islam is evil, and Africans are being punished for their past lives. I found this not only to be a far cry from any other Buddhist version I have come across, but also one which directly contradicts the basic idea of moving beyond conceptual grasping at one's own distorted perceptions.

The finger pointing at the moon quote was often repeated by the teachers without explanation or apparently any understanding, as they themselves were the worst offenders in worshipping the finger, ie, Ole Nydahl's antics, dress sense, and rather unsophisticated view of the world, at the expense of any spiritual development.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2011 07:20AM by suenam.

People want to share their experience here for others to read, of course.

It's completely OK to see that things we found meaningful yesterday may not have been meaningful after all.
This breaking of concepts is essential to development, we will not progress without this 'moving on'.
It can feel like a huge thing but it is in fact just the way mind works.

We keep moving towards more meaningful thought, speech and action until the last concept is gone.

Was Darius asking the question what next? Karmapa has many students all over Europe who are not part of the DW.
There are many people looking to follow teachings of Karmapa. If you have a connection with a teacher ask him or her what you might do?

Meaningful activity will attract people with a similar energy.

To Suenam, thanks for the post. For me Nydahls version of the way things are is of no interest to me beyond mild amusement. My job is too try to see my reality as clearly as possible so as to make the best use of my life for myself and others, so for me the reality of Nydahl is that he is not a saint and not an intellectual. He has some degree of charisma and is a passable showman. His real strength is in marketing. The spiritual marketplace is highly competitive but Nydahl really understands his target audience. His job is to put bums on seats and he does it well. He understands branding and the value of brand loyalty. He gives his followers what they want and they lap it up. He plays the part of a loveable rougue to make his brand of Budhism cool and his target demograpic encourage him to keep up the image. Some carefully placed non-politically correct comments are what his audience love about him. They revel in the coca-cola Buddhism tag in a sort of Millwall "no one likes us we dont care" sort of way. Having said all that DW has a lot to teach anyone who is open to it if critical awareness is maintained. I remember at a phowa, having decided that sitting in a hall waiting for a hole to appear in my head was not a productive or useful way to spend my day, I decided to help in the kitchen. The cook (well respected experienced DW practitioner) was rude, very demanding and completely ungrateful. Having chopped some herbs much more finely and for much longer than was necessary he told me to start unblocking the filthy drains. There was no pat on the back from him but he did mention that I had just learned more about Bhuddism than I ever would in any Phowa session. Thanks DW for a lesson that has served me well.

Nydahl really understands his target audience. His job is to put bums on seats and he does it well. He understands branding and the value of brand loyalty. He gives his followers what they want and they lap it up. He plays the part of a loveable rougue to make his brand of Budhism cool and his target demograpic encourage him to keep up the image. Some carefully placed non-politically correct comments are what his audience love about him.

What is being described here is an entertainer, not a Dharma teacher in any true sense of the word.

And an entertainer who as us Yanks would say 'bad-ass' rogue but without actually challenging the audience in a way that gets them out of their comfort zone.

By contrast the greatest entertainers get us to laugh but then flip things around and cause us to examine previously unexamined taboos/assumptions.

:-)


Hey John..... You just brought a memory flooding back!!! I went to several of those Phowa courses..... Sadly I really wanted to believe "I was special" and was having holes on my head!! I kind of knew that I wasn't and I never saw anyone else get the sign either.... It's incredible how one can be sucked into the group mentality. I always maintained a good distance but this idea of getting the Phowa sigh was something I wanted to believe.... I'm a little embarassed when I look back.

But the cook!!!! I think the following year I went back and I too volunteered to help out in the kitchen. I can't remember his name but I have rarely met a person as rude!!! He also had me cleaning out the drains, with my bare hands!!! It's actually not funny when I think back.... but I do remember at the end of that day that I would do nothing to help this man again. Not a word of thanks uttered by him......

I just felt pity for him. I couldn't understand where all the anger was coming from? If he found the job so unpleasant why was he doing it? And why not thank those people who volunteered to help him? I couldn't understand it? I don't know if that was the year some of the DWB practitioners in attendence broke into the cafe/bar and stole a substantial quantity of wine? Others tried to steal mobile phones that were being charged in a tent and someone else took a shit in the tent that housed the drinking water.... when the toilets were only 20 metres away.

A very enlightening course indeed that one!!!! :-)

But in a private message to me John reminded me of an evening when Nydahl was in Liverpool and I was performing a trick with coins. Several of his devotees who were sitting with us were convinced of my "special powers" and that these were being enhanced by Nydahls "powerfield" (he was in the house). I decided that I couldn't decieve these people and told them it was only a trick and how I was doing it, but they refused to believe me. John was my "stooge" for the trick and we both tried to convince them I had no special powers and that it wasn't down to Ole's "powerfield" but they would just not accept it was a trick.

I remember being quite shocked by the refusal of his students to believe the truth even when John and I reveiled how the trick was done!!! One student in particular was still claiming it was due to Ole's "powerfield" several hours later during a shared taxi ride home.....

Quite sad now when I think back.....

Steve

I love the Milwall metaphor John, very amusing.

Steve's story about "powerfields" really shows the new-age and non-Buddhist aspect of DWB.

As I understand it, a powerfield is generated by a mantra... It is much like picking up a guitar and playing a well known Beatles song... no one would claim that they had somehow tapped into the powerfield of the beatles, although the idea of tapping into the "spirit" of their music is valid.

The same when someone chants a mantra... It is not something owned by anyone (a concept fundamentally at odds with the idea of selflessness), but is rather a harmonic resonance which facilitates the meditation.

I think that the DWB idea is more like some sort of aura owned by an individual. Personally I found Ole Nydalh's to be yellow/green and a bit sickly looking.

Quote

I remember being quite shocked by the refusal of his students to believe the truth even when John and I reveiled how the trick was done!!! One student in particular was still claiming it was due to Ole's "powerfield" several hours later during a shared taxi ride home.....

(Sad)

This proves that Monty Python's Life of Brian was a documentary pretending to be a comedy.

Hello all,
It is very interesting to read Steve’s and John’s memories, be cause I think I know exactly what they are talking about, big fat German cook? I did meet him in Karma Guen as well and I had done some work for him but it did not last long I told him to calm down a bit and left the kitchen area.
I met few people like that in there kind of bossy ones, I did the same every time they started bossing around I told them to calm down and just laughed.
In DWB there are so many people like that. It is called “Dharma career” I think even I at some point got this when I belonged to Diamond Way.
I think I was in Karma Guen the same time as you guys, was it big course with mahakala initiation given by Karmapa?
After phowa there was huge party which went till 7 am and I will be honest here I loved it but know I realise it has nothing to do with Buddhism it just wild people going bonkers that’s all.
Something else I wanted to ask you here, do you think that Phowa is not valid if it is transmitted by Ole?
I spoke with someone (not from DW) and he explained me that Ole teaches one of the Ninmgma phowa’s.
I think it is only phowa which is transmitted for group of people and usually other Phowa’s one practise by one self.
One more thing I do think that we get a sign after successful practise and it has nothing to do with Ole in a sense that one him/her self has to practise and sit for many hours cross legged.
May be I am wrong but I would like to believe that phowa I got is valid.
Let me know if otherwise.
P.S. I have seen documentary about Tibetan monks in Himalayas and they where getting first phowa. In that documentary there was a scene where they were sitting after their heads been checked and they had grass straws in their heads:-)))