[gatesofvienna.blogspot.com]

That is almost spooky the way he embodies the Holger Danske myth. I remember how he used to refer to himself as a viking and I can't help but think that he has been sourcing from somewhere definatively non-buddhist.

Many of you who have posted here have clearly devoted a great deal of your life to learning about and encompassing Buddhism into your lives. From your wealth of experience would you be able to comment on your thoughts on the issue of local DW centres 'teaching' the art of DW based meditation to minors, bearing in mind that most members of the centre are still themselves students and some have only been DW members for a couple of years.
Look forward to your comments

I have seen children at many events and centres and have never had the impression that Diamond Way Buddhism was forced upon them in any way. Over the seven years I was with DWB I can vouch for one young person who attended many events and has an interest in Buddhism but appears to be persuing other interests as any health teenager might.

I would have to question that view. If a person who is dedicated to a cause wishes that those close to them or their offspring samples the same cause / belief then the decision making process is influenced before it may begin. A consenting and free thinking adult has the capability to make their own minds up, a child however by the nature of the growing human mind is a different story. A dependant child introduced has no 'free' choice.

During my time in the Diamond Way cult, I knew people with kids who were being brainwashed into it, unfortunately.

Hi Outsider.

From what I experienced it basically looked like couples who had brought their children to an event. Perhaps they couldn't find a baby sitter? I've seen children in play areas away from the lectures so can't say I ever saw them being forced into sitting through one of Ole's talks. It's possible I'm missing something more sinister but I can only report what I have witnessed rather than speculate as to the motives of the people and childern involved. I think this is fair.

If members here have children and exert an influence on them to reject Buddhism, Diamond Way or other, then that too is a group of parents trying to mould their children. Our motivation may well be very good, but it still ammounts to the same thing.

DWB practitioners who take their children along to public lectures with Ole may well be doing so out of a genuine wish to benefit them. Let's not forget that I am of the opinion that many of Ole's students are somewhat immature so I really don't think that these individuals have the ability to critically examine the man and his message. If so then if they are causing damage to their children it is out of ignorance rather than malice. I was brough up in a family of chain smokers and was exposed to all this second hand smoke as a child. I don't believe they did this because the knew what damage it was causing it was as a result of a lack of knowledge.

I don't disagree with your overall point, we are all products of our environment, so an exposure to Ole and his foot soldiers at an early age might very well program a child into repeating the same pattern of behaviour as their parents. I'm sure many parents do this out of ignorance.

I have to point out once again that I met lots of very nice people during my time with DWB. Most of them also held reservations about Ole but just let his dodgy views slip under the radar so they can attend a Buddhist group. Shame on those who, like me think the man could be harbouring racist views, and yet unlike myself say nothing to challenge him and his organization.

Parents introduce their children to things they hope will be useful to them. Are you saying everyone who has taken a child to one of Ole's talks is doing so to knowingly expose them to negative and harmful attitudes?

S

Ignorance

Thank you Steve. That is the one word which sums up what I have seen coming out of the DWB group local to me (on a one to one level with members, not speculation). Ignorance and blind faith, the same characteristics that help to form extremists whatever the creed and this is where DWB led by Ole is scary, so many ignorantly believe, cultivate and defend his views while rising up against other beliefs based upon their own perceptions. I have no issue with exposure of children to different beliefs but I must raise an issue with exposing a child to the dynamics of a closed door group that has a controlled set of beliefs and odd moral principals. Lets face it, Children don't go to unregulated schools and parents shall be answerable to social services if they are seen to be unsuitable.

Ignorance is Bliss

Dear Outsider,

My view is on the children aspect is a little bit different than ignorance. I think it is a kind of "trend" to take children to ole's lecture and blessings. Ignorance is coming only just in that side that the child should decide -when he/or she old enough - about religion or any further blessings. I think the parents doing what they think it is the best for their children just forget about that their children are independent individuals.
I felt many times really sorry for maya's son juri who needed to attend many meetings and was just misbehaving. He was bored and yes-i agree-he was forced to something different something very adult. I know they never went on holidays just places where steve was teaching and had few days off but somehow buddhism was always the first. I think if you are a family the priority is your child and he/she deserves a nice loving holiday and time spending together and not following some boring lectures. I am not wondered he is having behaviour difficulties how would a ten years old understand the concept of buddhism?

My other experience that within London sangha they do not like children or they do not have any compassion. They are annoyed by the fact if any children are taken to the lectures or even taken to the meditation centre. My friend could not afford baby sitters so they did not have other choises and many people got really mad and angry. Of course if you were high in hierachy they would love that child but they were neutral.
Many many people got pregnant recently i hope they will be able to change their attitude.

My last comment is that the parents need to be behave selfisly to fulfill the requirement of the diamond way buddhist hierarchy. I never forget what i saw when last time ole was here. Ingrid from the brighton sangha brought up to London her 6 weeks! old son to get a refuge and see ole. The baby was ok first night but next day he was screaming getting really irritated by all the people.
Is it reall worth it ?

I don't know but i feel sorry for those children and yes somehow they are forced into this because of their parents wish.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2010 07:04AM by milarepa.

-
I think in this discussion it is important to seperate two different things.

1. There is the idea of teaching meditation to children, which if done correctly could have many potential benefits. As has been pointed out previously, the current DWB situation means that this would not be value neutral, which would seem to detract from any benefit for both adults and children.


2. There is the other question of social reproduction. Of course, in any family unit there is bound to be a degree of "indocrination" which is not exclusive to DWB families - eg. it is often the children of racist parents who themselves become racist etc.

This seems to raise several issues;

- it seems that the sort of person who would seek out a more spiritual path is possibly going to become a certain sort of parent.

- there is the question of those who seek out the DWB path - one which hedges it's bets between a spiritual path and a capitalistic/liberal/secular-christian one, and which seems to attract certain types...

- there is the question of whether Buddhism is a form of humanism or not - I think that for DWB it certainly is, but this would seem to put it at odds with the rest of Tibetan Buddhism.

-----------------


So, it seems to me that Ole wants to eat his cake and have it too. He imports a tradition which is historically a monastic one and tries to graft it onto a modern western lifestyle. On a theoretical level, DWB seems to have a confused philosophy which is a bit muddled and at odds with itself, being neither truly modern western nor really Buddhist, and on a practical level, at least from what I have seen, DWB seems to attract a certain type of demographic - young, desiring money, parties and sex, somewhat ignorant and/or intolerant of cultural differences, and people who are somewhat conservative and resistant to change.

The big question for me here is whether DWB actually improves the people it attracts;
- some of it's members were somewhat lost before and seem to have found themselves a "family" in DWB which has given them some security.
- the meditations also provide a degree of confidence, although it would seem to express itself in quite a selfish and individualistic way - which is of benefit to the individual but questionable as to whether it benefits the wider society or sentinent beings as a whole.
- on the question of racism - I think that it is unlikely that anyone has become a racist because of DWB, but rather like SteveLpool, Odelay, and myself, we have just had to move on. Equally, I think that no one in DWB has altered their racist beliefs if they were already present.
- the same goes for a lot of DWB values and viewpoints, certainly I found this close-minded conservatism to be like stepping back 40 years to an age that was viewed as golden by an elite minority who wrongly believed they were manning the gates against the barbarian horde! (and which seems even more ridiculous given the events of the last 40 years which shows those fears to be unfounded and divisive).

Personally, I would say that if we tried to list the environments that were unhealthy for children, we would have a very long list, and DWB would be somewhere on there, neither first nor last.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2010 10:45AM by suenam.