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grainne uaile
…Children are used in the monasteries in India…
…They sleep with whomever they please…
…They all do the same…
…All people need protecting…
…All gurus act like a knight in shinning armour…
…everyone is vulnerable…

So your claim is that every single monastery in India uses children for sex?
Every single Guru is exactly the same, and we are also all the same - it's simply a case of us against them, with us as the helpless innocent victims and them as the evil perpetrators?
Do you have any evidence to support these accusations?
Comments such as these make it really hard to take you seriously, and this is exactly the sort of hysterical reaction that I was highlighting before.

This is exactly the sort of thinking that I find so obnoxious in Nydahl's prejudiced diatribe, so I can only include you in the same category that I place him in - people who make gross generalisations based not upon evidence but upon their own prejudiced viewpoint.

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grainne uaile
Mind control is used in businesses, and it is used in the media, for example, a psychologist wrote a book on mind control being used on Fox News, and yet thousands watch and believe this news network. This psychologist's book: State of Confusion: Political Manipulation and the Assault on the American Mind by Bryant Welch.

What has this got to do with Nydahl, or Tibetan Buddhism? If it is as widespread as you are suggesting here, then why all this talk of "us and them"? Why point the finger at one group, and then cite references which suggest that it is not just "them" but in fact far more widespread than that?

Do you have any evidence to support these accusations?
Comments such as these make it really hard to take you seriously, and this is exactly the sort of hysterical reaction that I was highlighting before.

I offered you a lot of evidence. Go back and buy every book I posted here. Go to Phayul.com and get on their forum since they are Tibetans. I even offered other websites. You are not interested in the truth, you are only interested in what you were taught to believe by others.

Mind Control? What does it have to do with Tibetan Buddhism. It should be obvious here, so much so that I don't think I have to say anything other than read books on Mind Control and what it is and how it is used. I point my finger at Tibetan Buddhism because these sex rituals are built into the system as they are also built into the guru system of India. If you don't believe this read the Kalachakra that I mentioned, real other tantras. Your knowledge is very limited here.

What Corboy posted is spot on.

This thread is about Ole. But Ole got his mystique from a system that, in its ancient and 'authentic' forms, is itself corrupt. I contend that Vajrayana is corrupt and corrupting because it contains escape clauses (tantrically rationalized) giving permission for its elite cadre of master/senior practitioners to ditch ethical precepts --ethical precepts that continue to apply to those low on the food chain.


Yes, those Tantric escape clauses green light every sort of evil behavior imaginable. Remember that arch degenerate Trungpa engaged in every vice imaginable, abused his students, had the morality and ethics of a sociopath, which is to say none. Worse his followers who by the last years had regressed in terms of morals and ethics to that of a brow beaten Tibetan serfs, excused all of his behavior. And worse attacked anyone who dared criticize dear leader.

Trungpa wasn't elevating people, he was regressing them into docile servants, which by all accounts did a very good job.

As far as Ole goes, he's operating right out in the open as a Western version of the Tibetan autocratic and sex crazed thugs that populate to guru ranks of Tibetan Buddhism.

If people cannot take matters 'out of the vault of secrecy' and face that Vajrayana, even 'real Vajrayana' is founded on exploitative abuse of girls and women, then we will lack a framework to identify and describe with the needed precision, "Westerners" who are abusing Vajrayana.

The would be reformers of Diamond Way are in a painful predicament.

To keep hoping that a Good Daddy will come in and clean everything up, the Karmapa, for instance. Or the Dalai Lama.

But what if there are no Good Daddies anywhere in Vajrayana Buddhism?

What then?


Well the Dalai Lama was born into this Tantric filth and kept him a nice life style. He won't criticize it. Take the breakaway Tibetan Tantric Michael Roach. Even the mouth piece of the Dalai Lama - Robert Thurman only meekly critiqued him.

Trungpa was allowed to act like a mad dog and infect people with AID's, yet got no censure from the big boys.

No Tibetan Buddhism is a good ol'boy network. The guys at the top enjoy all sorts of perks(being worshiped as transhuman entities who cannot be questioned lest you want to burn in hell for a eternity; being taken care of for the rest of their lives; endless supplies of women to sleep with), they are not about to give up that racket.

Given the way the Tibetan priesthood ran Tibet as a horrific Dark Ages theocratic state, I'd say they don't have a clue as what constitutes human rights or decency. The Chinese did Tibet a favor by ridding them of those theocratic parasites.

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grainne uaile
Do you have any evidence to support these accusations?
Comments such as these make it really hard to take you seriously, and this is exactly the sort of hysterical reaction that I was highlighting before.

I offered you a lot of evidence. Go back and buy every book I posted here. Go to Phayul.com and get on their forum since they are Tibetans. I even offered other websites. You are not interested in the truth, you are only interested in what you were taught to believe by others.

Mind Control? What does it have to do with Tibetan Buddhism. It should be obvious here, so much so that I don't think I have to say anything other than read books on Mind Control and what it is and how it is used. I point my finger at Tibetan Buddhism because these sex rituals are built into the system as they are also built into the guru system of India. If you don't believe this read the Kalachakra that I mentioned, real other tantras. Your knowledge is very limited here.

Once again you seem to completely miss the point. The issue of mind control brought up by you is far wider than Tibetan Buddhism and the book by Bryant Welch focuses on "Political Manipulation and the Assault on the American Mind". I ask you again, if the issue of mind control is so widespread as to include advertising and politics in liberal western democracies, then what motivates you to draw an line around Tibetan Buddhism to single it out from these other forms of mind control which you yourself are referencing?

The same issue about the abuse of inequalities, particularly regarding women and children, and the issue of mind control is a global phenomenon. Why single out monasteries in India when there is much evidence of the same abuse in many institutions on a global scale? On what basis do you single out women and children that are abused in Indian monasteries and draw a line between that and those abused in European institutions?

If your argument is based upon the idea that, "sex rituals are built into the system as they are also built into the guru system of India" then how do you explain the fact that they are not limited to these places, but in fact far more widespread in various different cultures, nations, religions, and settings?

Most importantly, what does this have to do with Nydahl? It would seem just as easy to cite cases of similiar abuse in Denmark and then claim it is due to this and start referring to Danish people as "they" as if they are somehow different to the rest of the world when in fact the rest of the world engages in exactly the same activities.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2013 05:36AM by suenam.

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corboy
To keep hoping that a Good Daddy will come in and clean everything up, the Karmapa, for instance. Or the Dalai Lama.

But what if there are no Good Daddies anywhere in Vajrayana Buddhism?

What then?

The obvious answer is to limit the practice to those who are grown-ups and who do not require a "daddy".

@ sueanam:

"If your argument is based upon the idea that, "sex rituals are built into the system as they are also built into the guru system of India" then how do you explain the fact that they are not limited to these places, but in fact far more widespread in various different cultures, nations, religions, and settings?"


We talk about those rituals are an inherent part of the left-handed Guruism in India and by its influence also of TB. You may open a new thread for that interesting question.

"Most importantly, what does this have to do with Nydahl? It would seem just as easy to cite cases of similiar abuse in Denmark and then claim it is due to this and start referring to Danish people as "they" as if they are somehow different to the rest of the world when in fact the rest of the world engages in exactly the same activities."

Not bad, that hairsplitting. But it cannot hide away your displeasure about our discussion.

I´d like to go off topic. Today we celebrate the liberation of Ausschwitz and I saw on television a feature called "Two or Three Things I know about Him". It was made by the son of Hanns Ludin, the "Slaughterman of Slowakia" who was kept by the GI´s in Austria 1945, delivered to Tchechoslowacia and hanged.

One topic was the repression and denying of the perpetrator´s family. It was hardly to stand. But what has deeply reached me was the definition by a survivor of the Holocoust of the different character of the God and the Evil, he said: Why is the Evil always stronger than the Good? The Evil is a vakuum, which is needed to be filled on and on. The Good is just there and enough for itself.

Some times, some deeds are not to be relativize.

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suenam
what motivates you to draw an line around Tibetan Buddhism to single it out from these other forms of mind control which you yourself are referencing?

I was merely pointing out that it doesn't take a person with low self-esteem to be hurt in these religions. All you need is a master manipulator, as gurus are. I don't believe that mind control should be used by anyone, but we are talking about lamas and gurus here, especially Ol'. I merely mentioned how the masses are controlled by experts at mind control. It isn't just vulnerable disciples who are controlled, all people are vulnerable. I didn't especially single out Tibetan Buddhism, as I also have brought up gurus in Hinduism.

Nydahl is only practicing his religion, but he is doing it openly, not secretively like most lamas.

1. You said in your last post: The obvious answer is to limit the practice to those who are grown-ups and who do not require a "daddy".



Adults can just as easily and often do get hurt by these teachers. Why? Because most students don't realize what the teachings are about and join without knowing, and then the teacher begins to groom them by manipulating them so that one day they will accept these teachings. Now I realize that not all students become consorts, but still, it is a wrong teaching and even consorts end up getting hurt as do other disciples when they learn what has happened. Keeping these teachings secret in the first place is deceptive and cruel.

Buddha never taught the tantras. What he taught is found in the Pali Canon.

Maybe you would like to tell us how Tibetan Buddhism has helped you. Are you more loving, compassionate, and peaceful as a result of these teachings?

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1. You said in your last post: The obvious answer is to limit the practice to those who are grown-ups and who do not require a "daddy".

What if the practice has the effect of eroding critical faculties and access to the normal range of emotions?

What if the practices lead adults into regression and boundary erosion?

Here are various things social psychologists have learned over the years. And these all add up to the verdict that its likely that Vajrayana practices would indeed erode adult critical thinking skills and the boundary functions needed to behave ethically in ambiguous situations.

Its in ambiguous situations that early warnings of boundary violations by authority figures begin.

First, the role of authority figure corrupts people--and in just a couple of hours.

In the Stanford Cookie Experiment (my term), people were randomly assigned leadership roles in small groups. The task lasted a couple of hours.

during the time, a plate of cookies was brought in. The designated leaders (assigned to the role, who had not sought that role, and who were in the role for just a couple of HOURS)--they were statistically more likely than the group members to do the following greedy, messy behaviors.

* Chew with mouths open

* Leave crumbs

* Take more cookies without being asked.

**One can say, "Oh, but once one has realized Buddha Nature, one becomes impervious to temptation and will no longer act this way--I reply, I dont buy such an argument. Being in the leadership role affects people. And look at the ones who have been in leadership roles for decades (Ole) or since childhood (tulkus).

Effects of Practices

Humans are influenceable by designated authority figures, influenceable by social settings, and influenceable by what they do.

(Influenceable by a designated authority figure)

Stanley Milgram's Obedience to Authority experiments demonstrated how many, very many adults, were willing to (so they thought) give painful potentially lethal electrical shocks to someone who was a designated authority figure due to being labelled the experiments supervisor and wearing a lab coat. In the days when Milgram ran those experiments, science still had prestige.

Today, its Tibet that has prestige and the trappings of authority are abundant. Your as likely to forget your ability to say NO in a Tibetan setting as in Milgram's laboratory.

(Influenceable by social setting)

Philip Zimbardo's Prison Experiment demonstrated how adult college students, assigned the roles of either guards or prisoners all forgot that they were free at any time to leave the setting.

(Influenceable by what you do)

This has been demonstrated for years via the research on cognitive dissonance.

If you pay a big fee, you are more likely to believe in what you paid for. Its otherwise too painful to face that you spent that money on something that you disliked or that gave you the creeps. (Paying big money to go see a guru who acts like an elderly adolescent. So much more tempting to persuade oneself he's actually doing crazy wisdom, rather than admit you paid big bucks to support a circus act)

Imagine the impact of doing a lot of ngondro prostrations plus all the visualizations.

If you do something that makes you feel foolish (fuck, I am citizen yet here I am bowing to some guy or gal who is on a throne??!!) or arouses your doubts, then continue to do it, you will resolve your cognitive dissonance by persuading yourself that what you're doing is OK or even beneficial.

[www.google.com]

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The Rule of Dissonance--Internal Pressure Is the Secret
Overview
There is only one way . . . to get anybody to do anything. And that is by making the other person want to do it.

—DALE CARNEGIE

Most of us feel more harmony in our lives when everything is consistent: our jobs, our homes, our habits, even our soft drinks. Consistency is the glue that holds everything in our lives together, thereby allowing us to cope with the world. Think of all the people you admire. I'll bet, by and large, most of them are consistent, congruent people. What they believe, what they say, and what they do (even when no one is watching) flow together seamlessly. Typically, a high degree of such consistency in one's life is indicative of personal and intellectual strength.

People are naturally more inclined — even subconsciously — to gravitate toward and follow individuals who are consistent in their behavior. The converse is also true: Inconsistency in one's personal and professional life is generally considered undesirable. The person whose beliefs, words, and deeds don't consistently match up is seen as hypocritical, two-faced, confused, or even mentally ill.

The Theory of Cognitive Dissonance
Leon Festinger formulated the cognitive dissonance theory in 1957 at Stanford University. He asserted, "When attitudes conflict with actions, attitudes or beliefs, we are uncomfortable and motivated to try to change." Festinger's theory sets the foundation for the Law of Dissonance, one of the twelve laws of Maximum Influence.

The Law of Dissonance states that people will naturally act in a manner that is consistent with their cognitions (beliefs, attitudes, and values). Therefore, when people behave in a manner that is inconsistent with these cognitions, they find themselves in a state of discomfort. In such an uncomfortable state, they will naturally be inclined to adjust their behaviors or attitudes to regain mental and emotional consistency. When our beliefs, attitudes, and actions mesh, we live harmoniously. When they don't, we feel dissonance at some level — that is, we feel awkward, uncomfortable, unsettled, disturbed, upset, nervous, or confused. In order to eliminate or reduce such tension, we will do everything possible to change our attitudes and behavior, even if it means doing something we don't want to do.

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I ask you again, if the issue of mind control is so widespread as to include advertising and politics in liberal western democracies, then what motivates you to draw an line around Tibetan Buddhism to single it out from these other forms of mind control which you yourself are referencing?

Because the practices and manners of Vajrayana have the capacity to turn otherwise functional citizens into serfs.

Because Westerners are sending thousands, even millions of dollars to support TB

Because academic and media elite (eg movie stars and musicians) are taking this TB business up

Because the DL and the high lamas have less media scrutiny and accountablity than the Pope.

And because so many of us in the West forget that these are theocrats who were created by and ruled closed societies where most lived as nomads or serfs.

Harrer, who was in Lhasa, noted that the upper classes quite often requested his services as a correspodant. What did they want?

They wanted Harrer to write on their behalf to various merchants in Europe so as to put in orders for amber, gems, and fine goods.

Adornments.

If you want an eye opener, get and read Turtle Feet: The Making and Unmaking of a Buddhist Monk by Nikolai Grozni. He lived as a monk in Dharamsala for years, learned the languages.

He lived as a local, took classes at the Institute of Dialectics.

And found the Tibetans (with a few, younger exceptions) tended to have contempt for Westerners, sex negativity was rife among the monks, and the debate protocol was not a support for echange of ideas and refinement of concepts, but was actually indoctrination.

Grozni's conclusion was, how can broken people teach us about the wholeness of life?

This is why Vajrayana has to be questioned. We need to be able to function as citizens, adult citizens, with all our talent and resources.

This material teaches us only to be gullible serfs. Puts us to sleep in the guise of claiming to offer awakening.

And these Tibetan Buddhist set ups are tax exempt in many parts of the West. Non TB tax payers are indirectly subsidizing this stuff.

So you bet its time for some accountability.

And time to ask if Magic Daddy is really there at all.

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It creates the Catch 22 of psychological blackmail set out in the words of another lama, Beru Kyhentze Rinpoche:

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"If your guru acts in a seemingly unenlightened manner and you feel it would be hypocritical to think him a Buddha, you should remember that your own opinions are unreliable and the apparent faults you see may only be a reflection of your own deluded state of mind...If your guru acted in a completely perfect manner he would be inaccessible and you would be able to relate to him. It is therefore out of your Guru`s great compassion that he may show apparent flaws... He ist mirroring your own faults".