Quote
stpauli
warrenz, once again: can you provide your source of information and any facts and figures of how much Karmapa and Shamarpa receive from DWB? It’s alright if you can’t. I don’t believe you have an access to the financials of DWB Association anyway. Thus to be fair you should perhaps consider adding notes like “I assume or I believe that Karmapa, Shamarpa and other lamas receive $$xxx from DWB” to your rather emotional accusations.

I appreciate you might have heard something about some Buddhist centers and organizations. However you need solid facts to draw conclusions, never mind putting forward strong accusations like the ones in your recent posts. So far I haven't heard any facts from you.

You're right, I don't have access to DWB accounts.

However, I cannot believe that after inviting a teacher to give a talk/course, DWB does not make an offering and simply relies on whoever turns up to make a personal donation. I am not saying Shamar/Thaye Dorje charge a fee but I don't think that anyone could invite a teacher and only pay expenses. It just doesn't sound credible. I don't know how much DWB offer them but I seriously doubt it is nothing.

Happy?

Now how about answering a question that you dodged earlier. Why does Shamar provide fulsome letters of support for Ole when knows full well that he is up to no good?

There is direct financial support for the KIBI, numbering a few thousand euro per year, possibly more in recent years: [www.buddhismus-stiftung.de].

Courses where Thaye Dorje gives empowerments or teachings to Westerners are more expensive than lectures and guided meditations by Nydahl. The assumption that at least a part of that money goes to his organizations is not far-fetched. For example, the White Dzambala-Empowerment in London in 2012 had a fee of 38 British Pounds, 28 British Pounds for people eligible for discount (http://www.karmapa-london.org/events-and-teachings-17th-karmapa-in-london/), more than 1000 people participated (http://karmapa-news.org/2012/2012-07-karmapa-in-united-kingdom/2012-07-15/). Revenue for the event was at least 28.000 British Pounds, of which at least a part probably went to Karmapa's organisation - let's lowball here and assume 10%, 2.800 British pounds. Assuming average donations of 5 British pounds per person going directly to the Karmapa, that's another 5.000 British pounds, so one event generates 7.800 British pounds.

Last year, Thaye Dorje gave 9 courses in European countries. Assuming similar revenue, that translates to about 70.200 British pounds or about 84.000 €. Keep in mind that I deliberately assumed lower numbers, if the full proceeds go to his organisation, we're talking about up to 360.000 € per year. And that's only the main empowerments, not includin lectures and guided meditations.

Of course, this is just an estimate, but I think it is enough to show that Warrenz isn't just wildly speculating.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2013 06:22AM by Sceptic Watcher.

StPauli, your questions have motivated me to delve deeper into the financial structures of Diamondway. Interestingly, the yearly Summer Course, the main event of Diamondway, isn't organised by the Diamondway foundation, but by the Buddhistische Union Diamantweg e.V., a different kind of non-profit association. The articles , found at [summercourse.ec], differ from the articles of the Diamondway foundation.

Among them are §2 (2)
2. inviting Buddhist teachers of the Karma Kagyu School from throughout the world for
lecture and seminar activities
4. sponsoring persons who practice the Buddhist teachings, provided that they are in
need according to paragraph §53 AO of the German tax code for charitable purposes

Again, 2. is not clear cut proof that the proceeds go to those teachers, but the wording implies it.
4. might finally solve the question how Nydahl is financed by Diamondway - since he has no income, he is likely in need given the above definition.

Also of note is §2 (4)
The purpose of these articles is also fulfilled by acquiring funds for the promotion of the
Buddhist religion in the tradition of the Karma Kagyu School from other entities (e.g. the
Diamantweg-Stiftung der Karma Kagyü Linie, e.g. the Buddhistischer Dachverband
Diamantweg e.V.). If the sponsored association is taxable in its entirety, it must be taxprivileged.

While the western foundation and the other german e.V. are given as examples, the BUD may also give to Sharmapa's and Thaye Dorje's organisations.

Quote
~*~ k a t e ~*~
To whom it may concern:
I have received further communication from the UK Charity Commission. They are investigating Diamond Way Cult on 3 issues.
* Illegal sale of alcohol and tobacco products within the organisation's centres, and the smuggling of such products into the UK by members.
* National security/terrorism concerns regarding Ole Nydahl's hate speech and incitement to violence, particularly against those who follow the faith of Islam. Included within this is the use of hate mail and harassment tactics by some in the organisation.
* Use and abuse of funds within the organisation, such as funding Ole Nydahl's lifestyle and that of other people high up in the organisation.

1. Does anyone else apart from ~*~ k a t e ~*~ have a direct experience dealing with UK Charity Comission?

In your experience - have they ignored any letters that were sent about Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way?

Have they denied any allegations or refused to investigate them?

In your experience have they ignored, disregarded or neglected any complaints that you referred to them?

2. The first two issues are facts, so I wonder how are they going to deny them. The third issue is a matter of interpretation really. It is a little bit like: let's investigate something we will not be able to prove anyway.

@ScepticWatcher - your facility with numbers always adds constructively to the debate.

Personally, from the point of view of its own constitution there is no reason why DWB should not channel funds to Shamar/Thaye Dorje. Every other Tibetan Buddhist group invites teachers and makes offerings on behalf of the group in addition to offerings from individual attendees. It's the way it's done. The teacher cannot sell the teachings for a fee and it is traditional to thank them with an offering of what is useful - nowadays that is usually money.

However, and this is what is getting up StPauli's nose, is that by taking that money Shamar/Thaye Dorje are complicit in the continuation of the shenanigans of DWB. I have seen several times on this thread, Shamar/Thaye Dorje supporters try to explain away their teachers involvement with Diamondway and support for Ole. These rationalizations suggest that they don't know what Ole gets up or that Ole claims support when it doesn't really exist or, as above, they don't benefit financially from it.

Ole is not a totally loose cannon. He needs and works with Shamar and Thaye Dorje and they need and enable him. The latter are doing essentially the same thing that the Catholic Hierarchy did when it covered up clerical abuse in its ranks - by denying its existence, they provide cover for him to continue his actions (and, no, before someone pipes up - I am not accusing anyone of paedophilia, just hypocrisy).

In fact, I'd go as far as suggesting that the name of this thread be changed to "Shamarpa, Thaye Dorje, Ole Nydahl and Diamondway Buddhism".



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2013 08:48PM by warrenz.

Warrenz "In fact, I'd go as far as suggesting that the name of this thread be changed to "Shamarpa, Thaye Dorje, Ole Nydahl and Diamondway Buddhism".
Total nonsense ,neither you or anyone else of participants of this thread knows the reasons why Shamarpa or Thaye Dorje support Ole Nydahl. It is just pure speculation.
I never heard of anyone accusing Shamarpa or Thaye Dorje of running a cult organization.
this thread is discussion about DWB and Ole Nydahl so if you have any proof don't be shy and tell us. Other wise don't try to stir away from the topic of this thread.
Knowing in what mess is Karma Kagyu at this moment it is very easy for the supporters of either side to get carried away and start taking controversy in some kind militant way.
There are many big problems on both sides of controversy but this discussion is about DW and this thread helps many people by showing that there are many others who had similar experiences with DW and stirring away to other topics would be unwise and unhelpful.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2013 10:30PM by dariusb.

Quote
dariusb
Warrenz "In fact, I'd go as far as suggesting that the name of this thread be changed to "Shamarpa, Thaye Dorje, Ole Nydahl and Diamondway Buddhism".
Total nonsense ,neither you or anyone else of participants of this thread knows the reasons why Shamarpa or Thaye Dorje support Ole Nydahl. It is just pure speculation.
I never heard of anyone accusing Shamarpa or Thaye Dorje of running a cult organization.
this thread is discussion about DWB and Ole Nydahl so if you have any proof don't be shy and tell us. Other wise don't try to stir away from the topic of this thread.
Knowing in what mess is Karma Kagyu at this moment it is very easy for the supporters of either side to get carried away and start taking controversy in some kind militant way.
There are many big problems on both sides of controversy but this discussion is about DW and this thread helps many people by showing that there are many others who had similar experiences with DW and stirring away to other topics would be unwise and unhelpful.

Without Shamar and Thaye Dorje's support, Ole wings would be significantly clipped. If the lineage holders of Karma Kagyu turned their back on him. What could he do? They could seriously impede Ole's behavior but they choose not to.

I do not say that Shamar/Thaye Dorje sleep around or hold fascist views but they defend Ole who does - they bear some guilt for that and some responsibility for the people who are harmed by Nydahl.

It may console you to believe that Shamar/Thaye Dorje have some hidden reason for behaving as they do regarding Ole that we mere mortal cannot fathom. But I think you are only fooling yourself. As far as I am concerned "if looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck - it's more than likely a duck". It makes perfect logical sense to deduce that Shamar/Thaye Dorje's support for Ole is a backscratching exercise. You're right, I do not support Thaye Dorje's candidature. But how could I, when he relies on people like Ole Nydahl?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2013 11:48PM by warrenz.

I have been following this thread for some time now. There are some good points and some accusations and overreactions. I have recently left diamond way buddhism, I just couldn't deal with all the islam-talk and Nydahls opinions on women. Apparently as he has stated in buddhism today that Germanic women aren't as attractive as women from the baltic countries because we are too independent. We should know our roles as women. In DWB everyone has almost the same opinions on Islam, they may vary in different degrees but fundamentally it is the same. You are encouraged to have critical thoughts, but it is hard when you are the only one asking questions. Why can the Lama talk about Islam in public, but we can not talk politics in the centers? That means that we are supposed to listen to all his opinions but cant state or discuss among ourselves. I feel that he is not an authentic Lama, an authentic Lama would have compassion for even extremeists, and he would know that social problems are more complex. DWB has somehow killed my joy for buddhism, I leave feeling empty and a need to redefine myself. I left some really good friends, but I just could not take it anymore. I felt that I wasn't true to myself and the values that I have spent so many years researching and coming to conclusions about. What bothers me the most is that you are suppost to have almost blind devotion for your teacher, and that I should try to see politics through his eyes. And I was told that Lama Ole would know more than me about most issues just because he is a Lama, even politics. Just because you are a Lama doesn't mean that you know everything. I also tried to e-mail Lama Ole questions about things that really bothered me, he answered me vaguely in two sentences, I did not really get any answers.

I think it is weird that DW buddhists are so critical of Islam and want muslims to leave their religions, but seeing what buddhism has had to go through with China I don't think they should say these things.

When I was at a retreat someone said some really disturbing racist things about muslims, I don't wish to repeat it.

I don't want to state my identity or where I am from. I don't want there to be rumors about me, it seems like gossip travels fast in DWB centers.

Dear fivecents:

Feel free to visit here. You have the right to feel safe and secure here.

1) If anyone asks you questions on the message board or by PM (private message), you are not obligated to reply if you do not feel like doing so.

2) If you get PM (private messages) that seem inappropriate or that make you feel uncomfortable, send copies immediately to Mr. Rick Ross, moderator of this message board.

He can be reached here:

[forum.culteducation.com]

You dont owe DW or Ole anything.

It is not a violation of 'right speech' to express your concerns.

One does not cease to have a mind, one does not cease to have human rights and one does not cease to be a citizen when one practices as a Buddhist.

Muslims are human beings, too and have human rights and claims to citizenship or the legal protections of residency wherever they reside.

It is a pity that Ole's obsessions keep him from appreciating that we are all members of the human family and no one is left out.