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warrenz
What Corboy is saying may be true in general but not in this case. Both Ole and his Tibetan enablers need each other. The Tibetan lamas who teach at DWB centers are only from Shamar/Thaye Dorje's circle. It is not as if lamas from different lineages or groups are teaching there without any knowledge of who Ole is. It is not true.

And why? Because Ole doesn't allow teachers from anywhere else to teach at his centres, in case it exposes that what Ole and his cronies teach is not real Buddhism but in fact his twisted cult version of it. The same way books written by those outside of this circle are not allowed within Diamond Way centres.

Controlling information available is a sure sign of a cult.

On another note, I recently had someone send this to me on a blog:

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I have had experience with a Diamond Way teacher. He runs one of their centers (at least he claims too and is registered as such) I am not Buddhist or religious in any way but had business with him. Serious crackpot. At times I wondered if he had mild Down syndrome. He would take things I said and later on present them to me as his ideas. Like a puppy looking for a home. He was lazy and came from family money. His Diamond Way status was bought I am sure as I heard a few stories suggesting he was forking over pretty good to Old Ole. I also heard about their hard drinking on the road. Which struck me as odd. After having enough of this guy’s strange and quite often double crossing behaviour I severed all ties and he became like a girlfriend who couldn’t accept the breakup. Very conniving, deceitful, and completely untrustworthy. Reality is simply not a place this man lives. Also very arrogant. Seemed to think he was superior and enlightened yet this guy never once presented an original idea, took little to no action in his business pursuits and contradicted himself all the time. Had to really watch my back and in the end the knives were being thrown at it like crazy. Thankfully I saw it coming and was prepared. I am not educated in Buddhism but this guy didn’t seem to have his own identity let alone be “enlightened”. Rather aggressive and deceitful really. He is a teacher? Wow … no thanks. He would send me youtube links about Ole too and I saw nothing I liked. Rambling cult like guy is my opinion. I have known guys with that look in their eye. Organized crime guys have that same glint. Seemed to me the guy was surrounded by sycophants which this guy I dealt with was most certainly one of. Not a balanced individual that’s for sure. An emotional infant is my take.

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~*~ k a t e ~*~

And why? Because Ole doesn't allow teachers from anywhere else to teach at his centres, in case it exposes that what Ole and his cronies teach is not real Buddhism but in fact his twisted cult version of it. The same way books written by those outside of this circle are not allowed within Diamond Way centres.

Controlling information available is a sure sign of a cult.

To be fair, since many forms of Buddhism put a an emphasis on lineage, you frequently do not get teachers from different lineages teaching in centres outside their lineage. Thai Buddhist centres for example do not generally host Zen or Tibetan teachers. This does not mean that other lineages are not respected as valid - just that different streams of teaching are not mixed. In the West, some Western Buddhist teachers do not do this and mix 'n' match of teachings from different Buddhist sources something traditionally rarely done in the East. It's not necessarily bad.

Similarly, the "control of information" works both ways - I don't think the bookstore at Urgyen Trinlay Dorje's monastery in NY state for example contains many books by supporters of Ole Nydahl and co.

What is cultic about DWB it seems to me is the emphasis on the special, indeed supernatural, status of Ole as a "Dharma protector". I can think of no other Western teacher who makes the same claims (only the status of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso of the NKT as another Buddhist messiah to the West comes close). The position of the DWB on the minority side of the Karmapa debate also feeds into the cultic tendencies of DWB. it protrays itself as a small group holding the torch of truth against a criminal conspiracy· Self-description as holding a sacred truth against the evil machinations of an outside threat is classic cult feature. This aspect is also seen in the demonization of Islam by DWB as an external threat both to White Western culture and to Buddhism.

From what I have read from former members, anyone questioning the party line is sidelined or bullied in acquiescence, described as mad, morally weak or a troublemaker. Again, a classic cultic phenomenon. Another I have picked up here is the importance of the social side of DWB centres. They provide a potentially welcoming family for those willing to conform. Alas many people are willing to conform to the craziest beliefs and to go against their own best interests in order to feel accepted by a group of people they perceive as cool. The Buddhist centres I have visited were welcoming but generally lacking in a party scene. DWB is the only one I've ever heard of that includes drinking and getting down as a major component in the mix.

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warrenz
What is cultic about DWB it seems to me is the emphasis on the special, indeed supernatural, status of Ole as a "Dharma protector". I can think of no other Western teacher who makes the same claims (only the status of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso of the NKT as another Buddhist messiah to the West comes close). The position of the DWB on the minority side of the Karmapa debate also feeds into the cultic tendencies of DWB. it protrays itself as a small group holding the torch of truth against a criminal conspiracy· Self-description as holding a sacred truth against the evil machinations of an outside threat is classic cult feature. This aspect is also seen in the demonization of Islam by DWB as an external threat both to White Western culture and to Buddhism.

From what I have read from former members, anyone questioning the party line is sidelined or bullied in acquiescence, described as mad, morally weak or a troublemaker. Again, a classic cultic phenomenon. Another I have picked up here is the importance of the social side of DWB centres. They provide a potentially welcoming family for those willing to conform. Alas many people are willing to conform to the craziest beliefs and to go against their own best interests in order to feel accepted by a group of people they perceive as cool. The Buddhist centres I have visited were welcoming but generally lacking in a party scene. DWB is the only one I've ever heard of that includes drinking and getting down as a major component in the mix.

This is quite accurate.

One thing that I recall is the nature of the talks given. In every other sangha I have been to there has been a variety of phrasing and a discussion of concepts which allows people to work things out for themselves, and in their own way. Fair enough, mistakes may be made, but they are also corrected by free discussion. The Lama may use different phrasing each time so that if you didn't understand something from one angle then a slightly different take on it may help you to comprehend what they were talking about.

In DWB this is completely forbidden. The talks given are formulaic, and any deviation is viewed as being wrong. Any discussion is also frowned upon - the words used are those of Ole's reinterpretation of certain teachings. If you are asked to give a short dharma talk and you use your own words or way of thinking, then you are quietly taken aside and told to read Nydahl's books and then stick to the phrasing provided (the justification for this is to avoid any misunderstanding - but obviously it also inhibits any sort of free thinking, and makes it seem like there is only one right way, all variations from Nydahl's are just wrong).
I remember going to dharma talks and hearing the same thing repeated over and over, regardless of the actual title of the talk, the subject matter was always repetitve. I had no idea whether the speaker had actually understood or whether they had just learnt to parrot the version fed to them. The strange thing was that when I mentioned this to others I got two reactions. Firstly, other members did not even seem to notice, claiming that this was somehow new and interesting, when it was actually almost word for word the same talk given a week or two previously. Secondly, there was also the question of whether you had remembered every detail, as if when you were called to give such a talk, you too would have to learn the talk word for word with absolutely no room for any deviation.

It wasn't so much that the subject matter was that weird, it roughly fitted a certain skewed version of Buddhism that I later found to be unhelpful and a bit misleading, but nothing which screamed "cult" in the actual content, but it was the way it was done that was just plain creepy, as if there was one single right wording, and we all had to become robotic clones unable to think or work anything out for ourselves.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2013 04:19AM by suenam.

There are a myriad of ways to make excellent sourdough bread, beer, wine, cheese.

What a loss to humanity had people stuck to only one method.

Is the Buddhadharma so fragile that people must be ordered to follow a set protocol--march in lockstep, as it were?

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suenam
I remember going to dharma talks and hearing the same thing repeated over and over, regardless of the actual title of the talk, the subject matter was always repetitve. I had no idea whether the speaker had actually understood or whether they had just learnt to parrot the version fed to them. The strange thing was that when I mentioned this to others I got two reactions. Firstly, other members did not even seem to notice, claiming that this was somehow new and interesting, when it was actually almost word for word the same talk given a week or two previously. Secondly, there was also the question of whether you had remembered every detail, as if when you were called to give such a talk, you too would have to learn the talk word for word with absolutely no room for any deviation.

It wasn't so much that the subject matter was that weird, it roughly fitted a certain skewed version of Buddhism that I later found to be unhelpful and a bit misleading, but nothing which screamed "cult" in the actual content, but it was the way it was done that was just plain creepy, as if there was one single right wording, and we all had to become robotic clones unable to think or work anything out for ourselves.

The absolute adherence to the Teacher’s key ideas and manner of expression is something I have seen again and again in different dodgy groups. It is usually a way for groups to inflate the number of teachers they have without giving them any real training. It is a frequent criticism of the NKT that its teachers are largely untrained and merely parrot the books of Geshe Kelsang, for example.

Like the NKT, DWB’s emphasis is on rapid expansion whether genuine interest is there or not. Quantity over quality. In order to service all of these new centers, they must have teachers (Ole can’t visit them all regularly – although he does try I’ll give him that). Proxy teachers who mouth his words are the only way such rapid expansion can be maintained. Such teachers though are no substitute for real insight from someone who has studied and trained for years. I imagine most people see through them but I imagine that social side of DWB centers makes up for that and those that stay do so mainly for the fun side of things or (as seems to be the case largely in the UK at least) as a home-from-home for ex-pat Eastern Europeans.

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warrenz
Like the NKT, DWB’s emphasis is on rapid expansion whether genuine interest is there or not. Quantity over quality.

So true.
That is very much my experience with DW.

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warrenz
It is usually a way for groups to inflate the number of teachers they have without giving them any real training.

I suspect it also means that such knowledge is derived from authority rather than experience, so makes the "Lama" an indispensable crutch which produces dependent followers.

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warrenz
As I've said several times here - it is well past time students of Shamar/Thaye Dorje in particular (and also of the likes of Beru Khyentse and Jampa Thaye) stopped pretending that their teachers have no part or responsibility for what Ole does. Knowing full well what he has done and refusing to condemn him, these teachers enable Ole to continue, greedy for the money and support DWB channels their way.

warrenz, you sound quite convinced that Karmapa, Shamarpa and other lamas enjoy financial support from DWB. Would you mind sharing some facts and figures, as well as the source of your information? Having been active within DWB Association for quite a long time, I know that the amount of money “channeling” their way from the budgets of any DWB center world-wide or from the DWB Association itself is zero. The exception is private donations that people give to the lamas when attending their empowerments in Europe organized by DWB (each lama has maximum one event at DWB a year: in Spanish Karma Guen, at summer course in Europe Center, or during a new year course). Those funds will then be used for the lamas charity projects. If you can prove otherwise, please do provide some facts here.

As you may know, Shamarpa, Karmapa, and other lamas run and support a number of charities. On the contrary all funds collected by the DWB Association are invested into internal “corporate” projects only, a huge chunk of them go into buying land and properties for DWB centers, as well as into rebuilding and renovating them.

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stpauli
warrenz, you sound quite convinced that Karmapa, Shamarpa and other lamas enjoy financial support from DWB. Would you mind sharing some facts and figures, as well as the source of your information? Having been active within DWB Association for quite a long time, I know that the amount of money “channeling” their way from the budgets of any DWB center world-wide or from the DWB Association itself is zero. The exception is private donations that people give to the lamas when attending their empowerments in Europe organized by DWB (each lama has maximum one event at DWB a year: in Spanish Karma Guen, at summer course in Europe Center, or during a new year course). Those funds will then be used for the lamas charity projects. If you can prove otherwise, please do provide some facts here.

As you may know, Shamarpa, Karmapa, and other lamas run and support a number of charities. On the contrary all funds collected by the DWB Association are invested into internal “corporate” projects only, a huge chunk of them go into buying land and properties for DWB centers, as well as into rebuilding and renovating them.

Well, you seem to have answered your own question. The various events hosted by DWB do provide financial offerings to Shamar/Thaye Dorje - whether directly from DWB or indirectly from individual attendees. If Shamar/Thaye Dorje found Ole so unpleasant they would not be taking up his invitations or accepting money from those gigs. Do you seriously tell us that in addition to donations from individuals at these events - DWB centers or DWB as a whole do not make offerings? If that is the case, then it works differently from every Buddhist center or organization I've ever heard of in that respect.

Shamar/Thaye Dorje to be honest do not need DWB's money so much anymore - Anita Mui's large bequest in 2003 to their Hong Kong organization, New Horizon Buddhist Association (apparently 13 million USD), and no doubt continuing funds from China where I believe Thaye Dorje will visit again next week (ironic in that DWB always used to refer to Urgyen Thrinley as the "chinese Karmapa") means neither is short of cash. Although - as I've said elsewhere on this thread - it's really about the glory not the money for Shamar and Ole. I have no idea why Thaye Dorje does it.

But what DWB provides is much more valuable than cash - a worldwide base of support for Thaye Dorje's bid for the Karmapa throne. Without any significant support among Tibetans or in the Himalayas, they rely on DWB's numbers to keep the candidature looking credible. Shamar's recent letter of unswerving support for Ole (despite earlier misgivings) is an attempt to deflect criticism from Ole and thus enables his behavior. It is ludicrous to speak of DWB and Shamar/Thaye Dorje as independent entities in anything other than legal terms. As I said before, both feed off one another and would be significantly disadvantaged in terms of numbers of followers without the other.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2013 01:34AM by warrenz.

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warrenz
Well, you seem to have answered your own question. The various events hosted by DWB do provide financial offerings to Shamar/Thaye Dorje - whether directly from DWB or indirectly from individual attendees. If Shamar/Thaye Dorje found Ole so unpleasant they would not be taking up his invitations or accepting money from those gigs. Do you seriously tell us that in addition to donations from individuals at these events - DWB centers or DWB as a whole do not make offerings? If that is the case, then it works differently from every Buddhist center or organization I've ever heard of in that respect.

warrenz, once again: can you provide your source of information and any facts and figures of how much Karmapa and Shamarpa receive from DWB? It’s alright if you can’t. I don’t believe you have an access to the financials of DWB Association anyway. Thus to be fair you should perhaps consider adding notes like “I assume or I believe that Karmapa, Shamarpa and other lamas receive $$xxx from DWB” to your rather emotional accusations.

I appreciate you might have heard something about some Buddhist centers and organizations. However you need solid facts to draw conclusions, never mind putting forward strong accusations like the ones in your recent posts. So far I haven't heard any facts from you.