Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: November 12, 2012 11:17PM

Let's stay on topic.

The topic of this thread is Ole Nydahl and his Diamond Way group.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: suenam ()
Date: November 13, 2012 06:53AM

A "root Lama" is the one who introduces you to the basic nature of non-dual "reality".

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SteveLpool
The guru is not an individual who initiates a person, but the person's own Buddha-nature reflected in the personality of the guru.

Nydahl teaches only the lower, outer tantras, so it isn't really applicable here, as he seems to firmly believe that the outer is the ultimate level of reality, so remains dualistic.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: Rudi ()
Date: November 14, 2012 03:54PM

I wasn't aware he teaches any Tantra at all. And if he does, I never thought he teaches the lowest ones which emphasize ritual. Which of his statements do you have in mind when you say the he teaches the lower ones? Do you mean the 8th Karmapa meditation, which he actually does not really teach, but instead leaves to the traveling teachers to teach? Or do you mean when he talks about the pure view? Or when he talks about the emptiness, clarity and unlimitedness of mind?

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: suenam ()
Date: November 15, 2012 11:34AM

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Rudi
I wasn't aware he teaches any Tantra at all. And if he does, I never thought he teaches the lowest ones which emphasize ritual. Which of his statements do you have in mind when you say the he teaches the lower ones? Do you mean the 8th Karmapa meditation, which he actually does not really teach, but instead leaves to the traveling teachers to teach? Or do you mean when he talks about the pure view? Or when he talks about the emptiness, clarity and unlimitedness of mind?

Well, "diamond way" is a translation of the word Vajrayana, and DWB members generally refer to themselves as Vajrayana practitioners, which is also called Tantrayana - the way/path of tantra. The DWB meditations have a generation and a completion stage which is a characteristic of the outer tantra practices. There is no study of the sutras, and drinking alcohol is permitted, so this would seem to exclude the Sutrayana path of renunciation. There is also much talk about transforming emotions into wisdom rather than renouncing them as poisons, so this is also consistent with the tantric path of transformation. The practices of Guru Yoga, Three Lights Meditation, and Phowa are also generally regarded as part of the tantric path, and the Kagyu Ngrondo done in DWB is a preliminary practice for the tantric path. There is also much talk about the devotion to the Lama which is needed for fast development which is a characteristic of the tantric path. The Black Coat Invocation is also a practice that is generally considered to be tantric.
If you look up "empowerment" in wikipedia it says, "An empowerment is a ritual in Tibetan Buddhism which initiates a student into a particular tantric deity practice." Have you not heard of any empowerments being given in your time at DWB?

The idea of emptiness/pure view of appearances as the deity is also an aim of the path of tantra, however Nydahl's opinions on homosexuals, women, Moslems, and Africans would seem to undermine any accomplishment of a non-dual view, so it is one thing to talk about it, quite another to put it into practice.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: November 15, 2012 10:51PM

Here is some info from Berzin's website.

[webcache.googleusercontent.com]

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Preliminaries
All classes of tantra require achieving a level of spiritual proficiency with preliminary practices (sngon-'gro, "ngondro") as preparation before embarking on their paths. These include gaining a level of stability in the preliminaries shared in common with bodhisattva sutra practice and completing a certain amount of special practices not shared with sutra.

Shared Preliminaries
The preliminaries shared in common with bodhisattva sutra practice entail gaining the four thoughts that turn the mind toward the Dharma (blo-ldog rnam-bzhi). They are appreciation of:

a precious human rebirth,
death and impermanence,
the laws of behavioral cause and effect (Skt. karma),
the disadvantages of uncontrollably recurring rebirth (Skt. samsara).

(Corboy note: this section deserves our close attention, as it is one that is easy to neglect)

Berzin writes: (Italics and bold font provided by Corboy for emphasis)

All tantra classes also require a stable background in the other bodhisattva sutra practices. Tantra, in fact, is a method for combining and simultaneously practicing them all. The sutra practices include:

*safe direction (refuge),
*determination to be free (renunciation),
*ethical self-discipline
*concentration,
*discriminating awareness (shes-rab, Skt. prajna) of voidness (Skt. shunyata, emptiness),
*love and compassion
*bodhichitta the other far-reaching attitudes (Skt. paramita, perfections) of generosity, patience, and joyous perseverance.


Unshared Preliminaries

To purify internal negative forces (sdig-pa, Skt. papa, negative potentials) and build up positive ones (bsod-nams, Skt. punya, positive potentials, merit), tantra practice also requires at least a certain amount of special preliminaries not shared with sutra practice. Most often, they entail a hundred thousand repetitions of:

prostration, together with a verse for taking safe direction and reaffirming bodhichitta;
the hundred-syllable mantra of Vajrasattva (rDo-rje sems-pa), for purification;
mandala offerings, symbolic of giving everything toward the attainment of enlightenment and the benefit of others;
a verse or mantra of guru-yoga (bla-ma'i rnal-'byor, "lamay neljor"), for integrating our bodies, speech, and minds with those of the spiritual masters, who are Buddhas for us.
Mantras (sngags) are Sanskrit words and syllables repeated, as the etymology of the Sanskrit term implies, to "protect the mind" from negativity. A mandala (dkyil-'khor) is a symbol of a universe. A hundred thousand or more repetitions may also be required of several other unshared preliminary practices. The Gelug tradition, for example, counts prostration and the verse for safe direction and bodhichitta as two separate preliminaries, and normally adds four more, making nine preliminaries in total:

the mantra of Samayavajra (Dam-tshig rdo-rje), for purification of our close bonds (dam-tshig, Skt. samaya) with our spiritual masters;
offerings of sesame seeds to Bhuji Vajradaka (Za-byed rdo-rje mkha-'gro), made into a fire to burn off negative forces from our mental continuums;
water bowl offerings;
making clay votive tablets (tsa-tsa) with the impression on them of a Buddha-figure or lineage master.
All Tibetan traditions require the basic sutra preliminaries, such as safe direction and what the Gelug tradition calls "the three principal pathway minds" (lam-gtso rnam-gsum): renunciation, bodhichitta, and an accurate understanding of voidness. We need to be able to generate these pathway minds at least artificially (bcos-ma), which means working ourselves up to an accurate conceptual state of them by relying on a valid line of reasoning. A pathway mind does not need to be nonconceptual for it to be sincere and for us to feel it on an emotional level.

Before receiving an initiation, Gelug recommends having at least begun the practice of a hundred thousand repetitions of each of the special preliminaries, with the provision that we continue them afterwards. The non-Gelug traditions recommend completing at least one set of a hundred thousand repetitions of each special preliminary before receiving an initiation. All traditions emphasize, however, the continuing practice of the special preliminaries as an ongoing part of daily practice.

Three Types of Initiatory Ceremony
Upon completion of a certain amount of preliminary practices, actual engagement in tantric practice requires an initiatory ceremony. There are three types:

empowerment (dbang, "wang," initiation),
subsequent permission (rjes-snang, "jenang," permission),
mantra-gathering (sngags-btus).
Empowerment
Visualization of ourselves as Buddha-figures requires receiving an empowerment beforehand. An empowerment enables success in our practice by:

establishing a close bond with a tantric master as a living source of inspiration (byin-rlabs, blessings);
linking us with the living tradition, which traces back to the Buddha;
conferring vows, which we need to keep purely for properly shaping our behavior and practice;
further purifying various internal negative forces;
activating the factors of our Buddha-natures;
enhancing those factors by leaving a legacy (sa-bon, planting "seeds") on our mental continuums from the conscious experience of specific states of mind and insight during the ritual - such as blissful awareness of voidness in Gelug anuttarayoga, or of our Buddha-natures in non-Gelug.

We do not actually receive an empowerment unless we have respect for and confidence in the tantric method, optimally by having a good understanding of it;
have full confidence, based on indisputable evidence, that our tantric masters have the ability to lead us correctly on the tantric path;
feel greatly inspired by our tantric masters;
take and promise to keep purely the vows that are conferred;
actively participate in the visualization process, as best as we can;
gain conscious experiences of the specific mental states or insights described by our tantric masters during the ceremony, to whatever level we are capable at the time.

For more, read the texts in the Berzin archives.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: November 15, 2012 10:57PM

In another essay Berzin writes of the preliminaries needed for propertly receiving tantric empowerment.

[www.berzinarchives.com]

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A tantric empowerment (initiation) is a ceremony for activating our evolving Buddha-nature factors, stimulating them to develop further, and planting further “seeds” of potential.

To receive that empowerment requires not only a fully qualified tantric master, but also us being properly prepared and receptive and our active participation in the proceedings.

Proper preparation means first of all putting a safe direction in our lives (“taking refuge”). This entails going in the safe direction indicated by the Buddhas, the Dharma, and the highly realized Arya Sangha.

and

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During an empowerment into the highest class of tantra, for example Kalachakra, we take bodhisattva and tantric vows. The bodhisattva vows are to avoid behavior that would hamper us from being of best help to others.

Tantric vows are to avoid behavior and ways of thinking that would hinder our success in the tantric practice.

In order to receive these vows, we must consciously accept them with the full intention to try our best to keep them all the way to our attainment of enlightenment. The basis for the ability to keep them is our training in ethical self-discipline gained through keeping some level of vows for individual liberation (pratimoksha vows), for instance lay vows to refrain from killing, stealing, lying, taking intoxicants, and indulging in sexual behavior inappropriate for gaining liberation.

Based on reports from Stevelpool and the others who have contributed to this long discussion of Ole N and the behavior of his communities, it should be asked whether the behavior of the communities and Ole's language about Muslims is compatible with the pattern of behavior described by Berzin as being necessary before one takes tantric empowerment.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: Rudi ()
Date: November 16, 2012 03:25AM

Quote
suenam
Quote
Rudi
I wasn't aware he teaches any Tantra at all. And if he does, I never thought he teaches the lowest ones which emphasize ritual. Which of his statements do you have in mind when you say the he teaches the lower ones? Do you mean the 8th Karmapa meditation, which he actually does not really teach, but instead leaves to the traveling teachers to teach? Or do you mean when he talks about the pure view? Or when he talks about the emptiness, clarity and unlimitedness of mind?

Well, "diamond way" is a translation of the word Vajrayana, and DWB members generally refer to themselves as Vajrayana practitioners, which is also called Tantrayana - the way/path of tantra. The DWB meditations have a generation and a completion stage which is a characteristic of the outer tantra practices. There is no study of the sutras, and drinking alcohol is permitted, so this would seem to exclude the Sutrayana path of renunciation. There is also much talk about transforming emotions into wisdom rather than renouncing them as poisons, so this is also consistent with the tantric path of transformation. The practices of Guru Yoga, Three Lights Meditation, and Phowa are also generally regarded as part of the tantric path, and the Kagyu Ngrondo done in DWB is a preliminary practice for the tantric path. There is also much talk about the devotion to the Lama which is needed for fast development which is a characteristic of the tantric path. The Black Coat Invocation is also a practice that is generally considered to be tantric.
If you look up "empowerment" in wikipedia it says, "An empowerment is a ritual in Tibetan Buddhism which initiates a student into a particular tantric deity practice." Have you not heard of any empowerments being given in your time at DWB?

The idea of emptiness/pure view of appearances as the deity is also an aim of the path of tantra, however Nydahl's opinions on homosexuals, women, Moslems, and Africans would seem to undermine any accomplishment of a non-dual view, so it is one thing to talk about it, quite another to put it into practice.


Thanks, now I understand a bit better what you mean.

But one thing I still don't get: There is no generation and completion stage in the highest Tantras?
I thought in Anuttarayoga-Tantra one visualizes oneself as the deity in one moment, no separation to begin with, but in the lower ones one is separated from the deity first and then later, after some steps, one experiences the unity? But doesn't that also transcend duality? It wouldn't remain dualistic?
To which Tantra class does the 8th Karmapa meditation belong, that Ole's disciples are supposed to practise after the Ngöndro? I'm sure Ole says it goes beyond duality and the meditation instructions seem to confirm it. There is also unification of Chakrasamvara and Vajrayogini, which is supposed to be a feature of Anuttarayogatantra.

Yes, I attended quite a few empowerments, but they were meant for blessing and of course not given by Ole, but Lopön Tshetschu, Shamarpa, Karmapa and others. This is why I assumed he actually does not teach the Tantras, but rather talks about Tantra in general a bit here and there.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: pS1bY8pG2l ()
Date: November 16, 2012 05:35AM

What is behind the curtain?
A totally different behavier and view than the plain sheep may belief.


Here a quote from Benjamin Walker´s book "Tantrism":

"Tantrics regard themselves as an élite who are above the moral and social laws that govern the pashu or herd. To them nothing is prohibited and all things are permissible. Therefore, one of the first things needfull for the initiate into Tantrism is for him to be weaned as soon as possible from the traditional standards of morality. He must first learn to become indifferent to the traditional taboos. He must then positively reject them. And finally, he must become actively hostile to them. ..........What others condemn he assumes as a badge of nobility and superior status. What poisons others nourishes him. What sends the herd to hell ensures his salvation. Prohibited acts are the rungs of a ladder by which he ascends to the hights.
The distinctions made between what is right and what is wrong are abolished. When opposites unite, imbalance and tension are removed. There are no dualities any more, only a mystical union, for all things are one. In Tantrism all opposites and contraries are illusory. This identification of polar opposites is a variant of the Eastern philosophy of non-differentiation and unity."

Here you have the true impact of what you call "the basic nature of non-dual "reality", Suenam. And Nydahl behaves like that, not like a pupil in a Sunday school.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: suenam ()
Date: November 16, 2012 12:22PM

Quote
Rudi
Yes, I attended quite a few empowerments, but they were meant for blessing and of course not given by Ole, but Lopön Tshetschu, Shamarpa, Karmapa and others. This is why I assumed he actually does not teach the Tantras, but rather talks about Tantra in general a bit here and there.
You are correct and this highlights an important issue here (although empowerments are not just "meant for blessing" - that itself is a dualism perpetrated by Nydahl - they are self-empowements to practice, not blessings coming from outside). If Nydahl is taking the role you say, which he seems to be, then how can he possibly be anyone's root Lama?

As for your first point, the inner tantras focus on the completion stage while the outer tantras focus on the generation stage, so yes you are right when you say that, "after some steps one experiences the unity" as Karam-mudra writes also…


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karam-mudra
When opposites unite, imbalance and tension are removed. There are no dualities any more, only a mystical union, for all things are one. In Tantrism all opposites and contraries are illusory. This identification of polar opposites is a variant of the Eastern philosophy of non-differentiation and unity."

Here you have the true impact of what you call "the basic nature of non-dual "reality", Suenam. And Nydahl behaves like that, not like a pupil in a Sunday school.
Here is the issue. How is it possible for Nydahl to point his finger at others, claiming they are deluded or mentally ill if he has really achieved this unity?

One of the major issues that I and other posters here have with DWB is the way they create an identity for themselves by saying - she is like this, they are like that, we are pure in our view, not like them, etc. etc. - how is that non-dual?

There are four levels of mudra listed in the Six Yogas of Naropa; Karma Mudra - A maiden possessing the physical attributes of a woman, for dull yogis, Jñana Mudra - A maiden created through the power of one's visualization, for middling yogis, Maha Mudra - The images within one's own mind spontaneously arise as various consorts, for sharp yogis, and Samaya Mudra - The mudra experienced as a result of accomplishing the former three.

These are usually termed the 'four handseals' with only the last one called mahamudra. There are various lists, usually some combination of the following: Action Mudra (Karmamudra), Wisdom Mudra (Jnanamudra), Phenomena Mudra (Dharmamudra), Pledge Mudra (Samayamudra), and Great Mudra (Mahamudra). Action mudra is a woman, phenomena mudra is all appearance, commitment or pledge mudra is tummo, wisdom mudra is the meditation deity, and non-duality is the great mudra.

Why is it that after 40 years of practice, Nydahl remains on the lowest level? Moreover, the experiences you write about seem to preclude a harmonious experience in favour of something forced. The fact that you are writing here now is exactly evidence that this was not a unifed experience for you, but rather one that Nydahl tried to impose on you against your will. Non-duality does not mean that other people need to fit themselves into Nydahl's rigid and inflexible value-system, or be forced to conform against their will to his desires.

When we hear Nydahl championing Western values against Islamic values, and see the way his lawyers behave towards you and other bloggers, how can you claim that for Nydahl, "The distinctions made between what is right and what is wrong are abolished."? Clearly self-interest still dictates his value-system and that is precisely why he has not transcended duality.

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Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by: whatisacult ()
Date: November 19, 2012 06:44PM

Quote
karam-mudra
What is behind the curtain?
A totally different behavier and view than the plain sheep may belief.


Here a quote from Benjamin Walker´s book "Tantrism":

"Tantrics regard themselves as an élite who are above the moral and social laws that govern the pashu or herd. To them nothing is prohibited and all things are permissible. Therefore, one of the first things needfull for the initiate into Tantrism is for him to be weaned as soon as possible from the traditional standards of morality. He must first learn to become indifferent to the traditional taboos. He must then positively reject them. And finally, he must become actively hostile to them. ..........What others condemn he assumes as a badge of nobility and superior status. What poisons others nourishes him. What sends the herd to hell ensures his salvation. Prohibited acts are the rungs of a ladder by which he ascends to the hights.
The distinctions made between what is right and what is wrong are abolished. When opposites unite, imbalance and tension are removed. There are no dualities any more, only a mystical union, for all things are one. In Tantrism all opposites and contraries are illusory. This identification of polar opposites is a variant of the Eastern philosophy of non-differentiation and unity."

Here you have the true impact of what you call "the basic nature of non-dual "reality", Suenam. And Nydahl behaves like that, not like a pupil in a Sunday school.

I dont know much about tantra really but my basic understanding is that the relationship between oneself and another person is flawed on many many levels. Arrogance is a big flaw. And I think if tantra isnt combined with humility its not going to have the desired effect. The question is ..what is the ultimate experience between two people or between mind and object. The ultimate I see is to see the past present and future of that person with unconditional love, and to give take away all their suffering giving them pure everlasting happiness. This isnt a physical act. You cant do it by grabbing a bottle of chang and getting plastered or poking a cheesey meaty urine soaked hole (if this is tantra then all humans practice tantra). Its a mental state. Its not a mental state of craving to be naughty or a rebel or to be in an elite.

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