karam-mudra:

What I am saying is that under hypnotic suggestion people can easily be persuaded that "energy centers" have been opened up and/or some other claimed phenomenon.

However, the validity of such claims made by Ole Nydahl is based upon the subjective feelings of those he influences, not objective reality.

This is how many neo-eastern gurus of one sort or another often manipulate people.

The key is the meditative trance state being used in an unscrupulous manner, not for enlightenment, but for exploitation.

Dear rrmoderator, you latest message from October 02, 2012 04:26PM makes you look like a Suenam-Clone. You use the same way of argueing blocking away any progress in the discussion. Please do not let this thread die. Unless you want that now for whatever reason.

@rrmoderator:

Did you get my private messages?

You say "is based upon the subjective feelings of those he influences, not objective reality."

It is by far more than that. At first there are different theories of what is reality, also among psychatrits and researchers. The most intelligent and empathatic ones describe objective reality as a state including feelings. As far as this feelings are threaten or taken you down, you work with them. It makes no sense to take ia pill instead.

Objective reality in the context of meditation can be for example: Dr. Michael Persinger, a psychologist at Laurentian University in Canada, found in 1993 that meditation induces epilepsylike brain seizures in some people. His study of 1,081 students showed that the 221 meditators among them had a higher rate of hallucinating floating spots of light, hearing voices, and even feeling the floor shake. Other studies reported that meditators complained of feeling emotionally dead and seeing the environment as unreal, two-dimensional, amorphous. Those results aren’t surprising if meditation reduces blood flow to the parietal lobe. In longtime meditators, unreality can strike spontaneously. Singer describes it as “involuntary meditation.”

Or: During meditation, the brain releases serotonin. People with mild depression might enjoy the increased levels of serotonin because the neurotransmitter can ease their mood. Drugs like Prozac mimic this effect. However, too much serotonin can cause all of the symptoms of "relaxation-induced anxiety", according to Dr. Solomon Snyder, head of Neuroscience at Johns Hopkins University. In some cases of schizophrenia, an excess of serotonin coupled with meditation can drop-kick someone into psychosis.

May be enough. All those changed bodily parameter are an objectively quantity and the basic of all what you call subjective feelings. By the way these results of researches are the basic of my report of grievous bodily harm. I promise, I stopp it here now!

Here the link to the researches: [www.religionnewsblog.com]

BackAtHome:

"Clone"?

Is that a personal attack?

"Progress in the discussion"?

If what you mean by "progress" is going off in tangents and indulging in magical thinking and conspiracy theories, that's not on topic.

This thread won't die, it will stay open.

But if people insist on going off topic they will be warned first and then if they persist despite being warned repeatedly, they may be banned.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2012 06:34AM by rrmoderator.

karam-mudra:

Yes people can be hurt by too much meditation and manipulated meditation.

See [www.culteducation.com]

And--one of the worst ways to harm someone is for a guru or lama or spiritual director to pull a person aside and tell that person, "You are special. You have a special destiny. I will take you into my confidence. But you must not tell anyone. And you are in a position that will bring rapid progress but also has enhanced hazards on the spiritual path."

"Hence you need to reply on me more than the average student does."

I was given this kind of input years ago, by a non Buddhist spiritual teacher.

And it had the following effect:

*I had the disease of feeling special

* Was told I had to face heavier risk of demonic attack

* I was therefore more dependent on this spiritual director than ever, and listened to him and even his non verbal gestures with extra attention.

*If I thought too much about what I had been told--that is, being spiritually special -- I would be egocentric, go into a state of sin, and thus invite the demonic attacks I was warned I risked by being special.

* I could not tell anyone else--I'd risk being laughed at or jeered at.

* I dared not ponder this or even write it down.

So...because I dared not dwell on this, it never occurred to me that my spiritual director was perhaps neurotic or had some other fucked up reason for singling me out as special.

It was over a decade before I could face this, let alone see that this specialness treatment had set me up to become not more enlightened but more confused, and yet more dependent on this man.

And to question all this meant having to face that I was not special at all.

Thats painful to give up.

Feeling one is special is exciting and intense. But...in the long run it isolates.

If this is a message that Ole N told you, it will be very interesting if other women can come forward, even under pseudonyms and tell us if he gave them the same specialness message he gave you.

If Ole is using that same specialness message for lots of other women--you bet that is a harmful thing to do.

Being told you are special is intoxicating.

And...the Bodhisattva Precepts forbid us to peddle intoxicants.

Most assume intoxicants are drugs and alcohol.

But, being told one is special and set apart is as intoxicating as any drug.

Some years later, I got love bomed at a Buddhist retreat cener by someone who flattered me I had what it took to be a Buddhist writer.

I kept telling this person that I had not formally taken precepts, didnt have an established practice, was not qualified.

She kept smiling and telling me she didnt want to hear my misgivings.

My head was swollen for a day or two by her flattery.

Then I remembered how I had been harmed by this first man telling me I was special.

And I realized this Buddhist teacher was, by flattering me, telling me I was special, committing spiritual malpractice.

I later found out she was involved with some teachers with serious histories of wrong doing.

Being told one is special is a very intoxicating form of love bombing and hard to walk away from.

IF Ole N does this specialness seduction with lots of other people, he he indeed doing harm.

@ corboy:

"You are special. You have a special destiny."

Yes, Corboy, I totally aggree. That is the most seducing phrase for the ones who were harmed in their life before, who are desperatly searching for some love and a connnection to something great, somthing special. And here Suanam is right by saying a good teacher induces selfempowerment and not addiction. Whatever school, philosophy or religion he or she represents.

People who contacted me were speaking about a "special connection" Nydahl offered them. And it is not easy to say "No".

Quote
karam-mudra
Here the link to the researches: [www.religionnewsblog.com]

What this does show is that there are a variety of different possible reactions, which is why one cannot really generalise from any single instance.

The central channel and the two side channels you refer to are the arteries, veins, and central nervous system, the chakras being places where they meet. It sounds like you were suffering from rlung disorder brought on by a forcible and premature manipulation of the "winds" during the 6 yogas, which shows just what kind of damage can be done by the misuse of these techniques.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2012 08:33PM by suenam.

@ suanam

"It sounds like you were suffering from rlung disorder brought on by a forcible and premature manipulation of the "winds" during the 6 yogas, which shows just what kind of damage can be done by the misuse of these techniques."

Yes, exactly. But please, what is rlung disorder ? Ah, I found it on Wikipedia. No, I don´t agree. That is tibetan superstition. I prefer other diagnoses.

And fact is also that I never practised the 6 yogas of Naropa except Phowa. So it was not my misuse of that yogas. I still did not know, what they meant to be. I was forced in. Once Nydahl asked me wether I know the secret Tantras of the Kagyü and I said no. That was in November 2004, about two month before my state of mind was completly changed by him.

Quote
karam-mudra
And, Suanam, he is a Vajra-Buddhist and even liberated as far someone in Vajra-Buddhism can be, if you like it or not. The old so called Kalu Ringpoche attested him that state of mind.

With all due respect to Karam-Mudra--and I mean that; I have the utmost respect for her for having the courage to speak out publicly, and to attempt to prosecute Nydahl, and to persevere in that prosecution against all odds. We all know that Nydahl is a formidable opponent, so Karam-Mudra deserves a lot of credit. However, in view of the above quote, I am compelled to comment:


"The old Kalu Rinpoche attested him [Nydahl] that state of mind [liberated]" ??!! Please, consider the source of that approval! Someone who abused his student/translator, June Campbell, who was a nun at the time; and who simultaneously had a Tibetan teen-age "consort", whom he KILLED (claiming she died of a heart attack), is to be considered a credible source regarding Nydahl's (or anyone's) Enlightenment or liberation?!! Not in my book!
Furthermore, to address a later comment, I don't believe the Shamarpa feels Nydahl is liberated. If he did, he would not have denounced him. I realize there's some controversy about Shamar's letters re: Nydahl, so I don't want to revisit that and raise that whole discussion again. I'm just saying that there is good reason to doubt that Shamar believes Nydahl is liberated/enlightened. As for the 13th Karmapa (it was the 13th you were speaking of, right?), how do we know what his evaluation was of Nydahl? Who said he declared Nydahl liberated? The Karmapa, imo, was reckless and irresponsible to accept Nydahl as a student. It should have been evident to him that Nydahl was ego-driven, and a bit obsessed with sex (this was evident to the 17-year-old Shamarpa at the time, so the Karmapa must have noticed, too), so he was not an appropriate candidate for the tantric teachings. And we all know (don't we?) that the Tibetan system is corrupt anyway, and that tulkus and Rinpoches get appointed for ulterior motives of all sorts, so how can any authority's evaluation of anyone be trusted? For all we know, the Karmapa declared Nydahl "liberated" because Nydahl offered him a ticket to tour the West.

Just some food for thought. I wish you success in your legal battle, on behalf of all Nydahl's student-victims.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2012 03:22AM by Misstyk.