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warrenz
Hi Exodus,
Many years ago I visited a Kagyu centre in Dublin which is connected to Ogyen Trinlay. I don't remember anyone mentioning Diamondway there (possibly this is before a DWB centre opened in Dublin). If I remember it had people of many nationalities - including Eastern Europeans. Was there any conflict between Ole Group and the other Kagyus in Ireland?

Hi Warrenz,
I was referring to the situation in Dublin diamond way "centre", which was previously discussed on this forum.
[forum.culteducation.com]

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suenam
Hi Exodus, thanks for contributing, I'm curious to hear your take on these events.

Hi Suenam, sure, I will try to write about it.

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jamgon
Following Suenam's logic Muslim and Christian groups have vested interest in bagging Buddhism so this is not surprising.

I'm not sure what you are referring to or how you reached that conclusion.

My logic was that the maximum crime figures for immigrant Muslims was no more than 2% but that you have used that to unfairly judge the other 98%.

If you equate this kind of ignorance with Buddhism that only serves to demonstrate just how far Nydahl has strayed from the path.

I think that Buddhist, Christian, and Muslim groups have an interest in 'bagging' extremism.

Yet again you have avoided the real issue...

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SteveLpool
Hi Jamgon.

I was wondering if you could answer the question I have posed to you twice now?

"So am I in error to think that divisive speech regarding race and religion, extra-marital affairs and indulging in sexual acts with students is wrong? Have I misunderstood something fundamental to Buddha’s teaching’s in holding the view that all the above is harmful? I’d be interested in hearing your views."

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jamgon
Ole's views on Islam attract certain skinhead element in the Eastern Europe...

Why is that do you think?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2012 10:08PM by suenam.

Hi Jamgon.

My experience was different. Discussion of Urgyen Trinley Dorje was forbidden! I had bought a commentary on the Jewel Ornament of Liberation. I finished reading it and wanted to donate it to the Sangha library so others could also benefit from it but, because it had a picture of Urgyen Trinley Dorje on the inside cover and was a commentary by one of his supporters I wasn't allowed to add it to the library. The Sangha library had 'Rogues in Robes' and 'Buddha's Not Smiling', both pro-Thaye Dorje. I mentioned including Mick Brown's book 'The Dance of 17 Lives' to offer a balanced arguement and it was forbidden.

If what you report is true then I welcome the change in stance.

The problem is that Nydahl has little idea of what goes on in his centres and the personalities who run them. Perhaps if he had know about the situation above he might have contacted the centre and told them to include the books. My impression is that his words are take too literally most of the time or are interpreted in a way that suits the mindset of the individuals running the centres. I remind you that I was asked to leave the centre I attended for many years because I wouldn't accept Nydahl as my root lama even though I considered Karmapa Thaye Dorje and Shamarpa as my root teachers. The heads of another centre told me that it was fine to attend DWB centres if I considered Karmapa my root lama. Unfortunately my life was being made increasingly difficult by the leader of the centre so I had no choice but to leave (and eventually homeless as a result).

Personally I don't have a problem with Nydahl raising people's awareness of the rise of radical Islam. My main concern is with the people who run his centres who use his rants as justification for their own racist beliefs. The Manchester Group, which was almost exclusively Polish, made some disgracefully racist comments to me and not just about Muslims. Their binge drinking was also a problem as was their lack of inclusiveness when a native English person attended. You might say it's not Ole's problem if people misinterpret his message but actually it is his problem as the head of this organization.

Ole once announced while blessing babies at a talk in London that he was happy to see so many of his (white) students having babies as our western cities were in danger of 'looking like Africa'. Here his emphasis was on skin colour and not on religious affilitation. I have a witness to the event. What are your thoughts on this?

And finally I will try and press you for an answer to my questions for a fourth time if I may ...

"So am I in error to think that divisive speech regarding race and religion, extra-marital affairs and indulging in sexual acts with students is wrong? Have I misunderstood something fundamental to Buddha’s teaching’s in holding the view that all the above is harmful? I’d be interested in hearing your views."

Best wishes

Steve

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SteveLpool
Hi Jamgon.

My experience was different. Discussion of Urgyen Trinley Dorje was forbidden! I had bought a commentary on the Jewel Ornament of Liberation. I finished reading it and wanted to donate it to the Sangha library so others could also benefit from it but, because it had a picture of Urgyen Trinley Dorje on the inside cover and was a commentary by one of his supporters I wasn't allowed to add it to the library. The Sangha library had 'Rogues in Robes' and 'Buddha's Not Smiling', both pro-Thaye Dorje. I mentioned including Mick Brown's book 'The Dance of 17 Lives' to offer a balanced arguement and it was forbidden.

To be fair, I don't think too many centers run by followers of Ugyen Trinley have books by Ole Nydahl in their libraries. As regards other teachers in that group, I don't think they have published too many works but I doubt they would be included either. Although the bookstore of Karma Triyana Dharmachakra in Woodstock I noticed carries works by Beru Khyentse - a supporter of Thaye Dorje.

This is the same for example in Gelugpa centres which do not carry the books by NKT leader Kelsang Gyatso (and NKT centers which don't carry books by anybody except Kelsang Gyatso!)

The reason generally given is that the teacher involved has broken samaya (tantric commitments) and therefore is no longer a reputable source of teachings.

I have read nearly all the books that have been published on the Karmapa controversy over the years and one thing I do notice - and I am being as dispassionate as I can - that the pro- Sharmapa books tend to have much more direct and even ad hominem attacks on lamas and Ugyen Trinley supporters than their opposite. That does not mean that no criticism of Ole or Shamarpa exists in the other books but you kinda have to read between the lines. After I read Rogues in Robes for example I wanted to wash my hands it was so vile.

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SteveLpool
Personally I don't have a problem with Nydahl raising people's awareness of the rise of radical Islam. My main concern is with the people who run his centres who use his rants as justification for their own racist beliefs. The Manchester Group, which was almost exclusively Polish, made some disgracefully racist comments to me and not just about Muslims. Their binge drinking was also a problem as was their lack of inclusiveness when a native English person attended. You might say it's not Ole's problem if people misinterpret his message but actually it is his problem as the head of this organization.

From what I have read here, most of DWB Buddhist centers in the England and Ireland seem to be little more than ex-patriot social clubs for Eastern European immigrants with native English and Irish not particularly welcome. Kinda sounds more than a little hypocritical therefore if they are ranting against immigrants in a country where they are themselves immigrants, no?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2012 12:09AM by warrenz.

Suenam:

jamgon
Following Suenam's logic Muslim and Christian groups have vested interest in bagging Buddhism so this is not surprising.

I'm not sure what you are referring to or how you reached that conclusion.

I am referring to your previous comment:

I would prefer less biased sources, though.

The BrusselsJournal is described on Wikipedia as "one of the Counterjihad movement's main channels", and CBN is short for "Christian Broadcasting Network". Both sources have an interest of portraying muslims in a bad light.

So, according to Suenam, Christian sources can be dismissed in the Muslim debate because they "have an interest of portraying muslims in a bad light". By extension, when Warrenz claims that:

Several Muslim and Christian groups have them [jamgon: DW] on their radar and are now protesting when they try to set up new centres

this shoud also carry little meaning b/c both Muslims and Christians have vested interest in criticising Buddhism.

Warrenz:

A very thoughtful post. Just one minor correction:

Although the bookstore of Karma Triyana Dharmachakra in Woodstock I noticed carries works by Beru Khyentse - a supporter of Thaye Dorje.

Beru is not really a "supporter" of TD - he accepts both candidates:

[www.karmapa.org.nz]

Many people have circulated letters saying that Beru Khyentse is on Kunzig Shamarpa's side. They said that I am his supporter. They even said that I followed the wrong Karmapa. These people are generally under the influence of some other people who are extremist. Most of the Karma Kagyu Dharma Centres have been told not to invite Beru Khyentse and that I should not be allowed to visit their Centre. They have also instructed their disciples not to attend my Dharma teachings or initiations. They have been doing this for the past ten years and they are still practicing it. Until today, I have not taken any sides with any Rinpoche. There are people advising me to take sides, but in order to respect the late Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche's advice, I have decided not to take any side.

Steve:

You can do better than regurgitate my views. You have the intelligence and knowledge to make up your own mind on the issue. To borrow from Corboy's wisdom "become your own Buddha".

Peace

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jamgon
Beru is not really a "supporter" of TD - he accepts both candidates

I don't think that many of Ugyen Trinley's support would agree. Despite what he says his actions - in particular allowing his son to be recognized by Shamarpa as the mind incarnation of Jamgon Kongtrul in direct competition to the tulku previously recognized by Ugyen Trinley and the Jamgon Kongtrul labrang - do not show such non-sectarianism. I think the letter you link to is more than a little disingenuous (and downright self-contradictory in places!). But this is off-topic for this thread.

On the topic of books I wonder what Kagyu texts Ole students read apart from the handful by Ole and one or two by Shamarpa and maybe Jampa Thaye. It is very sad if they have no access to the teachings of the like Khenchen Trangu Rinpoche, Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso, Tenga Rinpoche, Khenpo Karthar, Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche, Lama Lodro, Trungpa Rinpoche, Pema Chodron etc. What do they study? Surely they cannot rely on Ole's understanding of Mahamudra only???

Hi Warrenz.

In the Liverpool centre there were books by authors other than Nydahl. They were carefully selected by the leader so that they were written by pro-Shamarpa authors if they were still alive. There were several books by Kalu Rinpoche as I recall. If anyone new arrived they were just given "The Way Things Are" by Nydahl and more often than not when I spoke to the new people who read it they often commented on how badly written and confusing it was.

New students were also told to read "Riding The Tiger" and "Entering The Diamond Way" both of which have very little to do with real dharma in my opinion. They were just books which boasted about Nydahls exploits during he late 60's and the 1970's They were full of mystical visions of demons which were vanquished by Nydahl. Utter rubbish. My impression after reading them was that they were written by a man high on mind altering substances (for which Nydahl admits to having taken) or written by someone too soon after taking these substances to be truly rid of their effects. The late George Harrison once made s comment about LSD that once you've altered your mind with LSD there is no 'going home' or something similar in meaning.

Best wishes.

Steve

Hi Jamgon.

Yes, of course I am in the process of making my own mind up on the issue but you are posting on this forum as, I assume, a supporter on Nydahl and are therefore attempting to refute the claims of those of us who find his methods anomalous when considering Buddha's teachings.

If you think we're making a mistake then I for one am open to reading your analysis. I haven't just decided I'm right and all other view points are wrong. This would be an example of the "stiff ideas" Nydhal warns us of. On the contrary I am willing to listen to all arguements and if it appears I am in error I'll admit I've made a mistake and re-think my views. But if you are not prepared to answer the questions I posed then I have no alternate persepective to reflect upon.

I have pasted my previous questions below if you choose to enlighten me.

Ole once announced while blessing babies at a talk in London that he was happy to see so many of his (white) students having babies as our western cities were in danger of 'looking like Africa'. Here his emphasis was on skin colour and not on religious affilitation. I have a witness to the event. What are your thoughts on this?

And finally I will try and press you for an answer to my questions for a fourth time if I may ...

"So am I in error to think that divisive speech regarding race and religion, extra-marital affairs and indulging in sexual acts with students is wrong? Have I misunderstood something fundamental to Buddha’s teaching’s in holding the view that all the above is harmful? I’d be interested in hearing your views."

Best wishes.

Steve

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jamgon
Suenam:

jamgon
Following Suenam's logic Muslim and Christian groups have vested interest in bagging Buddhism so this is not surprising.

I'm not sure what you are referring to or how you reached that conclusion.

I am referring to your previous comment:

I would prefer less biased sources, though.

The BrusselsJournal is described on Wikipedia as "one of the Counterjihad movement's main channels", and CBN is short for "Christian Broadcasting Network". Both sources have an interest of portraying muslims in a bad light.

So, according to Suenam, Christian sources can be dismissed in the Muslim debate because they "have an interest of portraying muslims in a bad light". By extension, when Warrenz claims that:

Several Muslim and Christian groups have them [jamgon: DW] on their radar and are now protesting when they try to set up new centres

this shoud also carry little meaning b/c both Muslims and Christians have vested interest in criticising Buddhism.

That quote was actually from Sceptic Watcher, however the point was not to dismiss their views but rather to place them in context in order to gain some perspective.

If Nydahl is attracting a skinhead element then it seems clear where the criticism of him is directed, but the fact that you seem to be confusing that with a criticism of Buddhism begs the question repeatedly asked by SteveLpool…

If I were to venture an answer, it seems that Nydahl has grasped the worldly aspects of Tibetan Buddhist culture, particularly the social structure and ritualized elements, so he is actually promoting a form of "ethnic Buddhism" at the expense of what are widely taken to be the core teachings.

From [en.wikipedia.org] - Concentrating as it does on questions of national sovereignty, the Tibetan Government in Exile, position is more moderate in tone than some of its more extreme supporters who conflate the rule of the lamas with Tibetan Buddhist ideals, seeking to promote a Buddhist dogma that competes with the Marxist dogma of 'feudal serfdom' by portraying Tibet under the lamas as, in Robert Thurman's words: "a mandala of the peaceful, perfected universe"

For me the key word here is "dogma", but it's one thing for Thurman to suggest that reading for the situation in pre-Communist Tibet and quite another for Nydahl to try to transpose it into a modern democratic society.

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SteveLpool
My impression is that his words are take too literally most of the time or are interpreted in a way that suits the mindset of the individuals running the centres.
... You might say it's not Ole's problem if people misinterpret his message but actually it is his problem as the head of this organization.

Bear in mind that Nydahl himself takes a literal reading of the Tantric texts and has clung on to his fixed and anachronistic ideas about Islam, gender, and politics for the entire 40 years of his teaching span.

By his own example, Nydahl's warning about "stiff ideas" seems only to serve as a tool to dismiss any ideas that don’t suit his mindset rather than a means to self-examination.