Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
suenam
()
Date: July 22, 2012 11:15PM
Quote
jamgon
Suenam:
Here is another quotation from page 10 of the new edition of "The Way Things Are"
- "So what does Buddha teach as ultimately true? He explains that a timeless essence pervades, knows, and is the foundation of everything. That something absolute must always be always and everywhere, never created nor destroyed; otherwise it would be conditioned and relative. Space and its richness of potential pervade beyond the concepts of what is and what is not."
This is absolutism, not the middle way taught in Buddhism. There is no "timeless essence" or any absolute "something" to be found anywhere in Buddhism proper, and certainly no idea that the absolute is a sentient knowing thing.
The excerpt from Lama Ole's book you quoted is fully consistent with both the teaching of the Buddha and the Kagyu doctrine. Refer Srimala Sutra:
[huntingtonarchive.osu.edu]
But, Lord, the Tathagatagarbha is not born, does not die, does not pass away to become reborn. The Tathagatagarbha excludes the realm with the characteristic of the constructed. The Tathagatagarbha is permanent, steadfast, eternal.
or "Cloudless sky" by Jamgon Kongtrul:
[www.scribd.com]
The actual nature of mind, which is luminosity, is free from birth, dwelling, and cessation
(...)
Since mind has not arisen and has no end there can obviously be nowhere to dwell.
So, as you see, you are completely wrong on this point.
Peace
The point I was making was precisely that, "Tathagatagarbha excludes the realm with the characteristic of the constructed."
How can this list of concepts - essence, foundation, something which must be, something which 'knows', pervades space and its richness, or what is and what is not - qualify as non-constructed?
The same thing happens in the intro to 'Great Seal: Limitless Space & Joy: The Mahamudra View of Diamond Way Buddhism' also by Nydahl.
He writes about transcending the conceptual level, and then on page 6 we find, "The above transference of one's values from what is conditioned and relative to the level of the absolute and timeless is the second necessary step on Buddha's way"
Are you seriously arguing that transferring one's values to the level of the unconditioned absolute is in keeping with Buddhism?
Isn't this exactly the attempt to "dwell" which Jamong Kongtrul suggests would create clouds which obscure a clear sky?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2012 11:16PM by suenam.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
suenam
()
Date: July 22, 2012 11:29PM
Quote
Sceptic Watcher
@Suenam
From the book by Ringu Tulku I mentioned above, p. 164, explaining the completion stage of meditation.
"From this emptinss the pure and vivid manifestation of the deity arises, which while present is not different from emptiness, and which then dies - dissolving back into emptiness. In the context of the Vajrayana, emptiness is to be understood as "emptiness endowed with all perfect aspects." This refers to the fact that the nature of mind - when realized - proves to be not just empty. It has radiance and displays appearance, manifesting in unceasing play. Thus it is the inseparable union of emptiness and appearance, or of emptiness and clear light."
I think it is clear that the quote by Nydahl above is meant to describe this same experience. He often uses the word space when he talks about emptiness, because he thinks it is easier for westerners to understand the concept when translated this way - he argues that "emptiness" conjures links to nihilism in the mind of an inexperienced listener, which is not at all what the concept is supposed to mean.
As I said, he knows his Vajrayana, he's just an arrogant, sexist, racist man.
@birth control
I think that he indeed has a case there. Many foundations, for example the foundation of Bill and Melinda Gates, try to promote Family Planning as a way to transcend poverty.
@the other quotes
Context would be nice. It has been a while since I read the books by him, but I found them far more palatable and factually correct than the person.
I agree that Nydahl's is an attempt, albeit a rather clumsy one, to describe emptiness - and yet there is only really one thing that can be said on this, which is that 'emptiness is beyond concepts'.
Given the number of concepts Nydahl tries to apply here it seems as if he believes he has grasped it and can import his values into it.
The quote from Ringu Tulku says, "emptiness endowed with all perfect aspects" - "It has radiance and displays appearance, manifesting in unceasing play."
Do you think Nydahl's personal opinions represent this perfection and maintain an unceasing play or do they represent a clinging to a certain dualistic (subject-object) viewpoint which is informed by a worldly fixed set of values?
If he does in fact 'know Vajrayana' as you say, how is it possible that the result (arrogant, sexist, racist) hits so wide of the mark described in Ringu Tulku's passage?
The only way out of this I can see is to claim that Nydahl has the knowledge but has failed to put it into practice, and yet Nydahl himself openly claims to be a practitioner rather than a philosopher - what then is he practicing?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2012 11:36PM by suenam.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
Sceptic Watcher
()
Date: July 23, 2012 12:09AM
@Emptiness is beyond concepts
It's not as if other Buddhist teachers haven't tried to describe this state beyond concepts on a conceptual level - There are mounds of literature that expand on that one sentence and try to make it clearer to the student.
@Nydahl's opinions
You're inconsistent here. By your own treatment of Sharmapa, you shouldn't regard Nydahls opinions on other points as important for his teachings:
@result hitting far from the mark
Again, you're inconsistent:
Have your cake and eat it. Either the above applies to Nydahl (whose books show his theoretical knowledge) as well as the other teachers, or it applies to none of them.
As you may have guessed, I'm convinced it applies to none of them. In my opinion, all of Vajrayana lends itself well for that kind of abuse. I'm just commenting on Nydahl especially because I've had my bad experiences with him and not with other branches of Vajrayana. The fundamental part of Vajrayana, the close student-teacher-relationship based on the assumption that the teacher is already enlightened, and the idea that the student should try to view his teacher as enlightened even as he may not be, destroys the students ability to ever view the guru in a critical light.
It's not as if other Buddhist teachers haven't tried to describe this state beyond concepts on a conceptual level - There are mounds of literature that expand on that one sentence and try to make it clearer to the student.
@Nydahl's opinions
You're inconsistent here. By your own treatment of Sharmapa, you shouldn't regard Nydahls opinions on other points as important for his teachings:
Quote
I'm not sure who you are referring to as Shamar students. Personally, I think it's important to differentiate between the person of the teacher and the teaching itself. As I said in one of my earliest posts, Nydahl as an individual is not the issue here, it is the fact that he carries such influence and claims to represent true Dharma.
@result hitting far from the mark
Again, you're inconsistent:
Quote
My perception of this is completely different. Yes, Trungpa, Sogyal, Shamar, etc. may be seen as having weaknesses and shortcomings and perhaps could be said to have set a poor examples, however I personally think that they at least have shown a degree of theoretical knowledge which means that they could point their students in the right direction.
Have your cake and eat it. Either the above applies to Nydahl (whose books show his theoretical knowledge) as well as the other teachers, or it applies to none of them.
As you may have guessed, I'm convinced it applies to none of them. In my opinion, all of Vajrayana lends itself well for that kind of abuse. I'm just commenting on Nydahl especially because I've had my bad experiences with him and not with other branches of Vajrayana. The fundamental part of Vajrayana, the close student-teacher-relationship based on the assumption that the teacher is already enlightened, and the idea that the student should try to view his teacher as enlightened even as he may not be, destroys the students ability to ever view the guru in a critical light.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
suenam
()
Date: July 23, 2012 01:15AM
If you compare the quote from Ringu Tulku I think you can clearly see the difference, and for me Ringu Tulku's passage demonstrates a far more subtle level of awareness.Quote
Sceptic Watcher
@Emptiness is beyond concepts
It's not as if other Buddhist teachers haven't tried to describe this state beyond concepts on a conceptual level - There are mounds of literature that expand on that one sentence and try to make it clearer to the student.
I have never personally witnessed Shamarpa voice any similar opinion expressed in such a reifying subject-object structure - if you have an example of Shamar doing this then please share it.Quote
Sceptic Watcher
@Nydahl's opinions
You're inconsistent here. By your own treatment of Sharmapa, you shouldn't regard Nydahls opinions on other points as important for his teachings:Quote
I'm not sure who you are referring to as Shamar students. Personally, I think it's important to differentiate between the person of the teacher and the teaching itself. As I said in one of my earliest posts, Nydahl as an individual is not the issue here, it is the fact that he carries such influence and claims to represent true Dharma.
You argued that Nydahl's personal opinions are prefaced with a disclaimer. Not only have I not witnessed other Lamas dropping their opinions into a Dharma talk, I have also noticed that they tend to be a lot more subtle in the way they express themselves.Quote
Sceptic Watcher
@result hitting far from the mark
Again, you're inconsistent:Quote
My perception of this is completely different. Yes, Trungpa, Sogyal, Shamar, etc. may be seen as having weaknesses and shortcomings and perhaps could be said to have set a poor examples, however I personally think that they at least have shown a degree of theoretical knowledge which means that they could point their students in the right direction.
Have your cake and eat it. Either the above applies to Nydahl (whose books show his theoretical knowledge) as well as the other teachers, or it applies to none of them.
As you may have guessed, I'm convinced it applies to none of them. In my opinion, all of Vajrayana lends itself well for that kind of abuse. I'm just commenting on Nydahl especially because I've had my bad experiences with him and not with other branches of Vajrayana. The fundamental part of Vajrayana, the close student-teacher-relationship based on the assumption that the teacher is already enlightened, and the idea that the student should try to view his teacher as enlightened even as he may not be, destroys the students ability to ever view the guru in a critical light.
Just to clarify my point above…Quote
Sceptic Watcher
...he's just an arrogant, sexist, racist man.
While you are entitled to express your opinion, the subject-object structure of this sentence would seem to run the risk of exactly the same criticism that is being levelled at Nydahl.
I agree with your idea that Nydahl's comments may be construed as sexist, racist, and arrogant, but my objection to them on Buddhist grounds is that they affirm dualism by enacting a subject-object structure of perception.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
jamgon
()
Date: July 23, 2012 05:08AM
Suenam:
I will first deal with the claims in your original email on the passage from Lama Ole's book:
"So what does Buddha teach as ultimately true? He explains that a timeless essence pervades, knows, and is the foundation of everything. That something absolute must always be always and everywhere, never created nor destroyed; otherwise it would be conditioned and relative. Space and its richness of potential pervade beyond the concepts of what is and what is not."
This is absolutism, not the middle way taught in Buddhism. There is no "timeless essence" or any absolute "something" to be found anywhere in Buddhism proper, and certainly no idea that the absolute is a sentient knowing thing.
Please refer the following links:
[books.google.co.nz]
The terms "dharmadatu", "suchness", and "absolute truth" are synonymous in that both "dharmadatu" and "suchness" denote emptiness, and the absolute truth is the way everything exists, which is also emptiness.
The dharmadhatu, or the ultimate absolute truth, is beyond symbols and cannot be expressed by means or terms.
The object of perception of the noble ones is the fact that the dharmadhatu or buddha nature is all-pervasively present within all sentient beings.
[books.google.co.nz]
Dolpapa starts by saying that the dharmadhatu pervades both the inanimate world and its inhabitants
[www.bodhicitta.net]
The dharmadhatu was never born, Nor will it ever cease.
[www.rigpawiki.org]
Likewise, dharmadhatu is the essence of things
Dharmadhatu is the basic environment of all phenomena, whether they belong to samsara or nirvana. It encompasses whatever appears and exists, including the worlds and all beings
So, dharmadhatu (usually translated as truth state or even buddha nature) is a/ absolute b/ timeless c/ the essence of things d/ pervades all sentient beings. This directly contradicts all your claims, as they refer to the passage in "The Way Things Are". Then, in the recent post, you claim:
How can this list of concepts - essence, foundation, something which must be, something which 'knows', pervades space and its richness, or what is and what is not - qualify as non-constructed?
Hopefully the above links have clarified it for you. Dharmadatu, although “non-constructed” does pervade all samsara and nirvana. It is the “essence of things” - thus said Khenchen Thrangu – and “encompasses whatever appears and exists, including the worlds and all beings”. You may not like it but it does not make the description in "The Way Things Are" wrong.
Peace
I will first deal with the claims in your original email on the passage from Lama Ole's book:
"So what does Buddha teach as ultimately true? He explains that a timeless essence pervades, knows, and is the foundation of everything. That something absolute must always be always and everywhere, never created nor destroyed; otherwise it would be conditioned and relative. Space and its richness of potential pervade beyond the concepts of what is and what is not."
This is absolutism, not the middle way taught in Buddhism. There is no "timeless essence" or any absolute "something" to be found anywhere in Buddhism proper, and certainly no idea that the absolute is a sentient knowing thing.
Please refer the following links:
[books.google.co.nz]
The terms "dharmadatu", "suchness", and "absolute truth" are synonymous in that both "dharmadatu" and "suchness" denote emptiness, and the absolute truth is the way everything exists, which is also emptiness.
The dharmadhatu, or the ultimate absolute truth, is beyond symbols and cannot be expressed by means or terms.
The object of perception of the noble ones is the fact that the dharmadhatu or buddha nature is all-pervasively present within all sentient beings.
[books.google.co.nz]
Dolpapa starts by saying that the dharmadhatu pervades both the inanimate world and its inhabitants
[www.bodhicitta.net]
The dharmadhatu was never born, Nor will it ever cease.
[www.rigpawiki.org]
Likewise, dharmadhatu is the essence of things
Dharmadhatu is the basic environment of all phenomena, whether they belong to samsara or nirvana. It encompasses whatever appears and exists, including the worlds and all beings
So, dharmadhatu (usually translated as truth state or even buddha nature) is a/ absolute b/ timeless c/ the essence of things d/ pervades all sentient beings. This directly contradicts all your claims, as they refer to the passage in "The Way Things Are". Then, in the recent post, you claim:
How can this list of concepts - essence, foundation, something which must be, something which 'knows', pervades space and its richness, or what is and what is not - qualify as non-constructed?
Hopefully the above links have clarified it for you. Dharmadatu, although “non-constructed” does pervade all samsara and nirvana. It is the “essence of things” - thus said Khenchen Thrangu – and “encompasses whatever appears and exists, including the worlds and all beings”. You may not like it but it does not make the description in "The Way Things Are" wrong.
Peace
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
suenam
()
Date: July 23, 2012 05:08AM
Quote
jamgon
or "Cloudless sky" by Jamgon Kongtrul:
[www.scribd.com]
The actual nature of mind, which is luminosity, is free from birth, dwelling, and cessation
(...)
Since mind has not arisen and has no end there can obviously be nowhere to dwell.
So, as you see, you are completely wrong on this point.
Peace
"Cloudless Sky" by Jamong Kongtrul,
"However, if one examines the nature of mind one is unable to find these three phases of arising, dwelling, and cessation because the mind is free from them. This freedom from arising, dwelling, and cessation is the dharmakaya, the lack of true existence of mind. Thus, one realizes that mind is not truly existent. This is the insight into the inherent dharmakaya-nature of mind." pp.40-41 (my highlights)
Maybe it is just a question of interpretation here, but Nydahl's text appears to me to be making the claim to truth that this passge explicitly denies...
"So what does Buddha teach as ultimately true? He explains that a timeless essence pervades, knows, and is the foundation of everything. That something absolute must always be always and everywhere, never created nor destroyed; otherwise it would be conditioned and relative. Space and its richness of potential pervade beyond the concepts of what is and what is not." (my emphasis)
Nydahl seems to have overlooked the rather crucial point that this timeless essence lacks true existence, and so appears to be positing an actually existent eternal substantive truth.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2012 05:23AM by suenam.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
~*~ k a t e ~*~
()
Date: July 23, 2012 05:34AM
As much as this is a relative and subjective point, I don't think Nydahl's views are compatible with Buddhism.
Regardless of that, I don't think this is the place to discuss Buddhist philosophy.
Aren't we here to discuss Ole Nydahl's racist, sexist and homophobic views?
To discuss Ole Nydahl's abuse of female followers?
To discuss the Diamond Way cult's abuse of it's members?
How former members are stalked, sent hate mail and death threats?
The brainwashing used by the Diamond Way cult?
Ole Nydah's fraudulent use of the titles 'Lama' and 'PhD'?
The way the Diamond Way cult keeps it's teachings secret and copyrighted until followers are 'ready'?
The fact they have been proven to sell alchohol and tabacco inside their centres without a license in the UK?
The list of abuses by this cult and it's leader go on and on. Discussing Buddhist philosophy gets us nowhere.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2012 05:36AM by ~*~ k a t e ~*~.
Regardless of that, I don't think this is the place to discuss Buddhist philosophy.
Aren't we here to discuss Ole Nydahl's racist, sexist and homophobic views?
To discuss Ole Nydahl's abuse of female followers?
To discuss the Diamond Way cult's abuse of it's members?
How former members are stalked, sent hate mail and death threats?
The brainwashing used by the Diamond Way cult?
Ole Nydah's fraudulent use of the titles 'Lama' and 'PhD'?
The way the Diamond Way cult keeps it's teachings secret and copyrighted until followers are 'ready'?
The fact they have been proven to sell alchohol and tabacco inside their centres without a license in the UK?
The list of abuses by this cult and it's leader go on and on. Discussing Buddhist philosophy gets us nowhere.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2012 05:36AM by ~*~ k a t e ~*~.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
suenam
()
Date: July 23, 2012 06:41AM
e/ is not truly existent. (if it were truly existent then Buddhism would simply be a form of eternalism and not the middle way between eternalism and nihilism).Quote
jamgon
So, dharmadhatu (usually translated as truth state or even buddha nature) is a/ absolute b/ timeless c/ the essence of things d/ pervades all sentient beings.
@ ~*~ k a t e ~*~ Personally I find it important to consider whether Nydahl is practicing Buddhism or some kind of pantheistic religion.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2012 06:51AM by suenam.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
jamgon
()
Date: July 23, 2012 08:24AM
Suenam:
Nydahl seems to have overlooked the rather crucial point that this timeless essence lacks true existence (*), and so appears to be positing an actually existent eternal substantive truth(**).
No, he (*) has not and (**) does not. It is you who have overlooked the last sentence in the quoted excerpt form “The Way Things Are””
Space and its richness of potential pervade beyond the concepts of what is and what is not.
This is precisely the Middle Way view – the timeless essence of things transcends being and non-being. As in the Mahamudra song by the 3rd Karmapa:
It can not be shown by saying, “This is it.”
It can not be refuted by saying, “This is not it.”
The true nature of phenomena is beyond concept, unconditioned.
Kate:
Regardless of that, I don't think this is the place to discuss Buddhist philosophy.
I agree. This thread in discussion was brought about by Suenam’s comments on a philosophical passage in Lama Ole’s book. She/he now appears to accept (in sharp contrast to her/his original stance) that Middle Way Buddhism does recognise a timeless essence which pervades all beings. Once we have mopped things up we will no doubt go back to discussing Lama Ole’s racism etc.
Nydahl seems to have overlooked the rather crucial point that this timeless essence lacks true existence (*), and so appears to be positing an actually existent eternal substantive truth(**).
No, he (*) has not and (**) does not. It is you who have overlooked the last sentence in the quoted excerpt form “The Way Things Are””
Space and its richness of potential pervade beyond the concepts of what is and what is not.
This is precisely the Middle Way view – the timeless essence of things transcends being and non-being. As in the Mahamudra song by the 3rd Karmapa:
It can not be shown by saying, “This is it.”
It can not be refuted by saying, “This is not it.”
The true nature of phenomena is beyond concept, unconditioned.
Kate:
Regardless of that, I don't think this is the place to discuss Buddhist philosophy.
I agree. This thread in discussion was brought about by Suenam’s comments on a philosophical passage in Lama Ole’s book. She/he now appears to accept (in sharp contrast to her/his original stance) that Middle Way Buddhism does recognise a timeless essence which pervades all beings. Once we have mopped things up we will no doubt go back to discussing Lama Ole’s racism etc.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
~*~ k a t e ~*~
()
Date: July 23, 2012 05:26PM
Quote
suenam
@ ~*~ k a t e ~*~ Personally I find it important to consider whether Nydahl is practicing Buddhism or some kind of pantheistic religion.
I think it's perfectly clear that Ole Nydahl's racist, sexist and homophobic views are at complete odds with Buddhism. Also, real Buddhist teachers don't sexually and financially abuse their students.
This needs to be made clear. Quoting scriptures will just turn off those looking for information about this cult.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2012 05:26PM by ~*~ k a t e ~*~.
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