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jamgon
Suenam:
Here is another quotation from page 10 of the new edition of "The Way Things Are"
- "So what does Buddha teach as ultimately true? He explains that a timeless essence pervades, knows, and is the foundation of everything. That something absolute must always be always and everywhere, never created nor destroyed; otherwise it would be conditioned and relative. Space and its richness of potential pervade beyond the concepts of what is and what is not."
This is absolutism, not the middle way taught in Buddhism. There is no "timeless essence" or any absolute "something" to be found anywhere in Buddhism proper, and certainly no idea that the absolute is a sentient knowing thing.
The excerpt from Lama Ole's book you quoted is fully consistent with both the teaching of the Buddha and the Kagyu doctrine. Refer Srimala Sutra:
[huntingtonarchive.osu.edu]
But, Lord, the Tathagatagarbha is not born, does not die, does not pass away to become reborn. The Tathagatagarbha excludes the realm with the characteristic of the constructed. The Tathagatagarbha is permanent, steadfast, eternal.
or "Cloudless sky" by Jamgon Kongtrul:
[www.scribd.com]
The actual nature of mind, which is luminosity, is free from birth, dwelling, and cessation
(...)
Since mind has not arisen and has no end there can obviously be nowhere to dwell.
So, as you see, you are completely wrong on this point.
Peace
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Sceptic Watcher
@Suenam
From the book by Ringu Tulku I mentioned above, p. 164, explaining the completion stage of meditation.
"From this emptinss the pure and vivid manifestation of the deity arises, which while present is not different from emptiness, and which then dies - dissolving back into emptiness. In the context of the Vajrayana, emptiness is to be understood as "emptiness endowed with all perfect aspects." This refers to the fact that the nature of mind - when realized - proves to be not just empty. It has radiance and displays appearance, manifesting in unceasing play. Thus it is the inseparable union of emptiness and appearance, or of emptiness and clear light."
I think it is clear that the quote by Nydahl above is meant to describe this same experience. He often uses the word space when he talks about emptiness, because he thinks it is easier for westerners to understand the concept when translated this way - he argues that "emptiness" conjures links to nihilism in the mind of an inexperienced listener, which is not at all what the concept is supposed to mean.
As I said, he knows his Vajrayana, he's just an arrogant, sexist, racist man.
@birth control
I think that he indeed has a case there. Many foundations, for example the foundation of Bill and Melinda Gates, try to promote Family Planning as a way to transcend poverty.
@the other quotes
Context would be nice. It has been a while since I read the books by him, but I found them far more palatable and factually correct than the person.
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I'm not sure who you are referring to as Shamar students. Personally, I think it's important to differentiate between the person of the teacher and the teaching itself. As I said in one of my earliest posts, Nydahl as an individual is not the issue here, it is the fact that he carries such influence and claims to represent true Dharma.
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My perception of this is completely different. Yes, Trungpa, Sogyal, Shamar, etc. may be seen as having weaknesses and shortcomings and perhaps could be said to have set a poor examples, however I personally think that they at least have shown a degree of theoretical knowledge which means that they could point their students in the right direction.
If you compare the quote from Ringu Tulku I think you can clearly see the difference, and for me Ringu Tulku's passage demonstrates a far more subtle level of awareness.Quote
Sceptic Watcher
@Emptiness is beyond concepts
It's not as if other Buddhist teachers haven't tried to describe this state beyond concepts on a conceptual level - There are mounds of literature that expand on that one sentence and try to make it clearer to the student.
I have never personally witnessed Shamarpa voice any similar opinion expressed in such a reifying subject-object structure - if you have an example of Shamar doing this then please share it.Quote
Sceptic Watcher
@Nydahl's opinions
You're inconsistent here. By your own treatment of Sharmapa, you shouldn't regard Nydahls opinions on other points as important for his teachings:Quote
I'm not sure who you are referring to as Shamar students. Personally, I think it's important to differentiate between the person of the teacher and the teaching itself. As I said in one of my earliest posts, Nydahl as an individual is not the issue here, it is the fact that he carries such influence and claims to represent true Dharma.
You argued that Nydahl's personal opinions are prefaced with a disclaimer. Not only have I not witnessed other Lamas dropping their opinions into a Dharma talk, I have also noticed that they tend to be a lot more subtle in the way they express themselves.Quote
Sceptic Watcher
@result hitting far from the mark
Again, you're inconsistent:Quote
My perception of this is completely different. Yes, Trungpa, Sogyal, Shamar, etc. may be seen as having weaknesses and shortcomings and perhaps could be said to have set a poor examples, however I personally think that they at least have shown a degree of theoretical knowledge which means that they could point their students in the right direction.
Have your cake and eat it. Either the above applies to Nydahl (whose books show his theoretical knowledge) as well as the other teachers, or it applies to none of them.
As you may have guessed, I'm convinced it applies to none of them. In my opinion, all of Vajrayana lends itself well for that kind of abuse. I'm just commenting on Nydahl especially because I've had my bad experiences with him and not with other branches of Vajrayana. The fundamental part of Vajrayana, the close student-teacher-relationship based on the assumption that the teacher is already enlightened, and the idea that the student should try to view his teacher as enlightened even as he may not be, destroys the students ability to ever view the guru in a critical light.
Just to clarify my point above…Quote
Sceptic Watcher
...he's just an arrogant, sexist, racist man.
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jamgon
or "Cloudless sky" by Jamgon Kongtrul:
[www.scribd.com]
The actual nature of mind, which is luminosity, is free from birth, dwelling, and cessation
(...)
Since mind has not arisen and has no end there can obviously be nowhere to dwell.
So, as you see, you are completely wrong on this point.
Peace
e/ is not truly existent. (if it were truly existent then Buddhism would simply be a form of eternalism and not the middle way between eternalism and nihilism).Quote
jamgon
So, dharmadhatu (usually translated as truth state or even buddha nature) is a/ absolute b/ timeless c/ the essence of things d/ pervades all sentient beings.
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suenam
@ ~*~ k a t e ~*~ Personally I find it important to consider whether Nydahl is practicing Buddhism or some kind of pantheistic religion.