Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
Sceptic Watcher
()
Date: July 21, 2012 02:40AM
@warrenz
=> number of members
NKT was founded in 1991, while Ole is around since the 70ies. While NKT proselytizes more aggressively, they did so for a shorter time span. They also have the problem of even worse PR than Ole because of their fight with the Dalai Lama. The Karmapa Controversy isn't known outside buddhist circles, the Dalai Lama is.
=> finances
The two organizations are actually of similar wealth: the main NKT charity has assets worth about 23 million €, Diamond Way has assets worth about 16 million €.
As far as I know, NKT is more expensive than DWB, so it could still have more money despite having fewer members.
=> centers
No, the 650 figure are actually currently running centers. If one closes, it is no longer listed. DW centers seldomly die, because if one is in particularly bad shape, Ole will sometimes ask very enthusiastic students to move there and keep things going. All of these centers have at least one shared meditation per week. I don't know wether that qualifies as event in your eyes.
=> structured courses
Nydahl emphasizes that his students absolutely should do Ngöndro. The usual way of doing things is 16th Karmapa meditation => if you're interested in more practice, a preliminary similar to guru meditation with 11.000 repetitions of a mantra, to see wether you're cut out for Ngöndro, then Ngöndro, then 8th Karmapa meditation. If you want to, there are also other practices which are taught - a meditation on Chenrezig, one on a red dakhini, the name of which currently evades me, and one on a blue buddha that's supposed to be very good for your health. There are also often 1day-courses by travelling teachers, pupils of Nydahl whom he trusts in transmitting some parts of Dharma. Those courses are on foundational topics like the four noble truths, but also sometimes on more advanced topics.
=> number of members
NKT was founded in 1991, while Ole is around since the 70ies. While NKT proselytizes more aggressively, they did so for a shorter time span. They also have the problem of even worse PR than Ole because of their fight with the Dalai Lama. The Karmapa Controversy isn't known outside buddhist circles, the Dalai Lama is.
=> finances
The two organizations are actually of similar wealth: the main NKT charity has assets worth about 23 million €, Diamond Way has assets worth about 16 million €.
As far as I know, NKT is more expensive than DWB, so it could still have more money despite having fewer members.
=> centers
No, the 650 figure are actually currently running centers. If one closes, it is no longer listed. DW centers seldomly die, because if one is in particularly bad shape, Ole will sometimes ask very enthusiastic students to move there and keep things going. All of these centers have at least one shared meditation per week. I don't know wether that qualifies as event in your eyes.
=> structured courses
Nydahl emphasizes that his students absolutely should do Ngöndro. The usual way of doing things is 16th Karmapa meditation => if you're interested in more practice, a preliminary similar to guru meditation with 11.000 repetitions of a mantra, to see wether you're cut out for Ngöndro, then Ngöndro, then 8th Karmapa meditation. If you want to, there are also other practices which are taught - a meditation on Chenrezig, one on a red dakhini, the name of which currently evades me, and one on a blue buddha that's supposed to be very good for your health. There are also often 1day-courses by travelling teachers, pupils of Nydahl whom he trusts in transmitting some parts of Dharma. Those courses are on foundational topics like the four noble truths, but also sometimes on more advanced topics.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
Sceptic Watcher
()
Date: July 21, 2012 03:09AM
Quote
suenamQuote
Sceptic Watcher
My perception of this is completely different. Yes, Trungpa, Sogyal, Shamar, etc. may be seen as having weaknesses and shortcomings and perhaps could be said to have set a poor examples, however I personally think that they at least have shown a degree of theoretical knowledge which means that they could point their students in the right direction.
To anyone wishing to learn about Buddhism I would recommend any of their books just as enthusiastically as I would warn against reading Nydahl's.
Actually, I think his books aren't bad. His book "How things are" reads very similar to "Daring steps towards fearlessness" by Ringu Tulku, for example. While he may not know about some more subtle teachings, there's nothing contrary to dharma in his books, AFAIK. His behaviour is the problem, not what he teaches.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: July 21, 2012 03:22AM
To whom it may concern:
This thread is about Ole Nydahl and his Diamond Way group.
Please stay on topic.
This thread is not about recommending paths, types of Buddhism, etc.
In fact such promotion is against the rules of this messag eboard.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2012 03:23AM by rrmoderator.
This thread is about Ole Nydahl and his Diamond Way group.
Please stay on topic.
This thread is not about recommending paths, types of Buddhism, etc.
In fact such promotion is against the rules of this messag eboard.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2012 03:23AM by rrmoderator.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
warrenz
()
Date: July 21, 2012 03:22AM
Quote
Sceptic Watcher
@warrenz
=> number of members
NKT was founded in 1991, while Ole is around since the 70ies. While NKT proselytizes more aggressively, they did so for a shorter time span. They also have the problem of even worse PR than Ole because of their fight with the Dalai Lama. The Karmapa Controversy isn't known outside buddhist circles, the Dalai Lama is.
=> finances
The two organizations are actually of similar wealth: the main NKT charity has assets worth about 23 million €, Diamond Way has assets worth about 16 million €.
As far as I know, NKT is more expensive than DWB, so it could still have more money despite having fewer members.
=> centers
No, the 650 figure are actually currently running centers. If one closes, it is no longer listed. DW centers seldomly die, because if one is in particularly bad shape, Ole will sometimes ask very enthusiastic students to move there and keep things going. All of these centers have at least one shared meditation per week. I don't know wether that qualifies as event in your eyes.
=> structured courses
Nydahl emphasizes that his students absolutely should do Ngöndro. The usual way of doing things is 16th Karmapa meditation => if you're interested in more practice, a preliminary similar to guru meditation with 11.000 repetitions of a mantra, to see wether you're cut out for Ngöndro, then Ngöndro, then 8th Karmapa meditation. If you want to, there are also other practices which are taught - a meditation on Chenrezig, one on a red dakhini, the name of which currently evades me, and one on a blue buddha that's supposed to be very good for your health. There are also often 1day-courses by travelling teachers, pupils of Nydahl whom he trusts in transmitting some parts of Dharma. Those courses are on foundational topics like the four noble truths, but also sometimes on more advanced topics.
Very interesting Sceptic Watcher. Maybe it's just me but I had always seen DWB as pretty amateurish organization compared to others. Many people here seem to suggest from their experience that it was more about socializing than anything else. But I guess I was wrong.
I wonder what the age profile is for DWB? I know Carlitos mentioned that Shamar was interested in DW because of the young people it attracted. In my experience Buddhist groups (like most religious organizations) tend not to have many people in their teens and twenties - although I think Buddhist groups do better than many others in this respect. Are there older and even elderly DWB members (aside from Ole of course!)?
The ngondro is taught in all Karma Kagyu centers but it is not really a group practice. The instructions on how to do each section would only take an hour or two and then you're on your own. The meditation practices you outline - only Chenresig and Medicine Buddha are likely to be done on a weekly basis. But these might be regular prayer services and the same every week. Dorje Phagmo (the red Dakini) is too long and complex and is usually only done in retreat or in big monasteries - I doubt any but the biggest Ole centers could stage it. As I said, I only visited an Ole center once and it was only six people, very dull and the people leading the evening did not seem to be very knowledgeable. More time was spent chatting than doing meditation. I am at a loss to understand how it attracts even the numbers that it does.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
suenam
()
Date: July 21, 2012 04:10AM
Quote
Sceptic WatcherQuote
suenam
My perception of this is completely different. Yes, Trungpa, Sogyal, Shamar, etc. may be seen as having weaknesses and shortcomings and perhaps could be said to have set a poor examples, however I personally think that they at least have shown a degree of theoretical knowledge which means that they could point their students in the right direction.
To anyone wishing to learn about Buddhism I would recommend any of their books just as enthusiastically as I would warn against reading Nydahl's.
Actually, I think his books aren't bad. His book "How things are" reads very similar to "Daring steps towards fearlessness" by Ringu Tulku, for example. While he may not know about some more subtle teachings, there's nothing contrary to dharma in his books, AFAIK. His behaviour is the problem, not what he teaches.
Its interesting that you highlight the one work that at least aims at theory as opposed to the 'self-promotion' ones, however, the misunderstanding that is Ole Nydahl can be clearly seen in that book, actually called "The way things are".
Some quotes from that book - "every human equipped with reason should insist on limiting the birth rates in the ghettos and poor countries of the world"
- "Probably nobody informed expects anything but hate and suppression from Islam"
- "If we are all Buddhas in pure lands, it is only natural to express compassion and wisdom, and any premeditated harm to others is totally out - except to teach them a lesson."
Not only is this another example of Nydahl's opinion trumping the teachings of the Buddha, but it also shows comments made in an arrogantly rhetorical style such as, "no reasonable person would deny that....", etc.
There is a lot of talk about achieving bliss if you follow the Diamond Way, but very little actual instruction there other than phrases like, "see the clear space of mind".
There is also a part on promoting what sounds like a cult, with talk about how great it is, how it should be spread throughout the world, and how converting other people is one of the most worthwhile things you can do.
I also think that some of the justifications Nydahl gives are based upon worldly 'truths' rather than on the idea of transcending the suffering caused by mis-perceiving such truths as absolute, and I think that its this misunderstanding which informs all of Nydahl's teaching, and which makes the whole DWB project one with a materialistic rather than a truly Buddhist aim.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2012 04:24AM by suenam.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
suenam
()
Date: July 22, 2012 01:59AM
Here is another quotation from page 10 of the new edition of "The Way Things Are"
- "So what does Buddha teach as ultimately true? He explains that a timeless essence pervades, knows, and is the foundation of everything. That something absolute must always be always and everywhere, never created nor destroyed; otherwise it would be conditioned and relative. Space and its richness of potential pervade beyond the concepts of what is and what is not."
This is absolutism, not the middle way taught in Buddhism. There is no "timeless essence" or any absolute "something" to be found anywhere in Buddhism proper, and certainly no idea that the absolute is a sentient knowing thing.
"Space and its richness" is precisely what is "conditioned and relative" according to the Buddhist two truths theory.
Notice also how although he suggests that ultimate truth is beyond concepts, at the same time he also make a claim to know what it is!
This is the opposite of what Buddha taught.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2012 02:01AM by suenam.
- "So what does Buddha teach as ultimately true? He explains that a timeless essence pervades, knows, and is the foundation of everything. That something absolute must always be always and everywhere, never created nor destroyed; otherwise it would be conditioned and relative. Space and its richness of potential pervade beyond the concepts of what is and what is not."
This is absolutism, not the middle way taught in Buddhism. There is no "timeless essence" or any absolute "something" to be found anywhere in Buddhism proper, and certainly no idea that the absolute is a sentient knowing thing.
"Space and its richness" is precisely what is "conditioned and relative" according to the Buddhist two truths theory.
Notice also how although he suggests that ultimate truth is beyond concepts, at the same time he also make a claim to know what it is!
This is the opposite of what Buddha taught.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2012 02:01AM by suenam.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
Alexander Nevsky
()
Date: July 22, 2012 08:15AM
Quote
suenam
Some quotes from that book
- "Probably nobody informed expects anything but hate and suppression from Islam"
Dalai Lama's message to Tibetan Muslims. It would be interesting to know what he is talking about. But the body language speaks for itself.
[dalailama.com]
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
suenam
()
Date: July 22, 2012 08:53AM
Quote
Alexander NevskyQuote
suenam
Some quotes from that book
- "Probably nobody informed expects anything but hate and suppression from Islam"
Dalai Lama's message to Tibetan Muslims. It would be interesting to know what he is talking about. But the body language speaks for itself.
[dalailama.com]
[www.youtube.com]
Gyaltsen100 writes - This is my understanding.. I quote "I am very pleased to hear you two speak in Tibetan. Those of you, who practice Tibetan Muslim, even though our religion & rituals are different, we are all Tibetans by traits. Historically we are all from Tibet and that we are all tibetans even if some of you were brought up here in Srinagar, Ladakh and like. About 400 years ago, we were all from the likes of Lhasa, Shigatse, Tsedang and others in Tibet.
I remember when i first came in Srinagar long time ago, i met this small old man. He said "Liu Sha" and him were school mates. I noticed the style of their livelihood in homes were very similar to tibetan style of living. Till today, this is how we lived together.
There used to be some members of tibetan muslim community working for Tibetan Government in exile in Dharamshala but recently there's been a stoppage of staffs. But i hope in near future this would resume.
Whether you are a girl or boy, if you are educated and willing, It would be very nice to have some of you (2- 3) working in CTA government just to keep a good relationship between our two communities.
Right now, we are living in exile, and if we continue to live together harmoniously and bonded, in future there surely will be a change in political situation in Tibet if not in near future. Incase if there is a change, I am sure some of you will definitely want to return to Tibet.
(He asked if the speaker wants to return to Tibet... Speaker replied, i would love to visit.. his holiness laughs..)
So, when we are working hard towards our goal, we must work together and join hands. In happy times, we all will return to our country(TIbet) with joy, happiness and with full pride. Therefore, it will be nice if some of your people could work in CTA government, please keep that in mind.
And as per the financial situation with the school, the union government will surely help but if help needed in future in terms of monetary especially, please do not hesitate to let us know.(speaker thanks...Audience claps). Lastly, It is our responsibility to work hard sincerely with unity. So Thank you. "
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2012 08:58AM by suenam.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
jamgon
()
Date: July 22, 2012 04:38PM
Suenam:
Here is another quotation from page 10 of the new edition of "The Way Things Are"
- "So what does Buddha teach as ultimately true? He explains that a timeless essence pervades, knows, and is the foundation of everything. That something absolute must always be always and everywhere, never created nor destroyed; otherwise it would be conditioned and relative. Space and its richness of potential pervade beyond the concepts of what is and what is not."
This is absolutism, not the middle way taught in Buddhism. There is no "timeless essence" or any absolute "something" to be found anywhere in Buddhism proper, and certainly no idea that the absolute is a sentient knowing thing.
The excerpt from Lama Ole's book you quoted is fully consistent with both the teaching of the Buddha and the Kagyu doctrine. Refer Srimala Sutra:
[huntingtonarchive.osu.edu]
But, Lord, the Tathagatagarbha is not born, does not die, does not pass away to become reborn. The Tathagatagarbha excludes the realm with the characteristic of the constructed. The Tathagatagarbha is permanent, steadfast, eternal.
or "Cloudless sky" by Jamgon Kongtrul:
[www.scribd.com]
The actual nature of mind, which is luminosity, is free from birth, dwelling, and cessation
(...)
Since mind has not arisen and has no end there can obviously be nowhere to dwell.
So, as you see, you are completely wrong on this point.
Peace
Here is another quotation from page 10 of the new edition of "The Way Things Are"
- "So what does Buddha teach as ultimately true? He explains that a timeless essence pervades, knows, and is the foundation of everything. That something absolute must always be always and everywhere, never created nor destroyed; otherwise it would be conditioned and relative. Space and its richness of potential pervade beyond the concepts of what is and what is not."
This is absolutism, not the middle way taught in Buddhism. There is no "timeless essence" or any absolute "something" to be found anywhere in Buddhism proper, and certainly no idea that the absolute is a sentient knowing thing.
The excerpt from Lama Ole's book you quoted is fully consistent with both the teaching of the Buddha and the Kagyu doctrine. Refer Srimala Sutra:
[huntingtonarchive.osu.edu]
But, Lord, the Tathagatagarbha is not born, does not die, does not pass away to become reborn. The Tathagatagarbha excludes the realm with the characteristic of the constructed. The Tathagatagarbha is permanent, steadfast, eternal.
or "Cloudless sky" by Jamgon Kongtrul:
[www.scribd.com]
The actual nature of mind, which is luminosity, is free from birth, dwelling, and cessation
(...)
Since mind has not arisen and has no end there can obviously be nowhere to dwell.
So, as you see, you are completely wrong on this point.
Peace
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
Sceptic Watcher
()
Date: July 22, 2012 06:42PM
@Suenam
From the book by Ringu Tulku I mentioned above, p. 164, explaining the completion stage of meditation.
"From this emptinss the pure and vivid manifestation of the deity arises, which while present is not different from emptiness, and which then dies - dissolving back into emptiness. In the context of the Vajrayana, emptiness is to be understood as "emptiness endowed with all perfect aspects." This refers to the fact that the nature of mind - when realized - proves to be not just empty. It has radiance and displays appearance, manifesting in unceasing play. Thus it is the inseparable union of emptiness and appearance, or of emptiness and clear light."
I think it is clear that the quote by Nydahl above is meant to describe this same experience. He often uses the word space when he talks about emptiness, because he thinks it is easier for westerners to understand the concept when translated this way - he argues that "emptiness" conjures links to nihilism in the mind of an inexperienced listener, which is not at all what the concept is supposed to mean.
As I said, he knows his Vajrayana, he's just an arrogant, sexist, racist man.
@birth control
I think that he indeed has a case there. Many foundations, for example the foundation of Bill and Melinda Gates, try to promote Family Planning as a way to transcend poverty.
@the other quotes
Context would be nice. It has been a while since I read the books by him, but I found them far more palatable and factually correct than the person.
From the book by Ringu Tulku I mentioned above, p. 164, explaining the completion stage of meditation.
"From this emptinss the pure and vivid manifestation of the deity arises, which while present is not different from emptiness, and which then dies - dissolving back into emptiness. In the context of the Vajrayana, emptiness is to be understood as "emptiness endowed with all perfect aspects." This refers to the fact that the nature of mind - when realized - proves to be not just empty. It has radiance and displays appearance, manifesting in unceasing play. Thus it is the inseparable union of emptiness and appearance, or of emptiness and clear light."
I think it is clear that the quote by Nydahl above is meant to describe this same experience. He often uses the word space when he talks about emptiness, because he thinks it is easier for westerners to understand the concept when translated this way - he argues that "emptiness" conjures links to nihilism in the mind of an inexperienced listener, which is not at all what the concept is supposed to mean.
As I said, he knows his Vajrayana, he's just an arrogant, sexist, racist man.
@birth control
I think that he indeed has a case there. Many foundations, for example the foundation of Bill and Melinda Gates, try to promote Family Planning as a way to transcend poverty.
@the other quotes
Context would be nice. It has been a while since I read the books by him, but I found them far more palatable and factually correct than the person.
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