Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
warrenz
()
Date: July 20, 2012 06:03AM
Quote
suenam
Actually that sounds like a good idea, however - what would then become of the (claimed) 700,000 DWB members?
I think this idea may work if it is a 'bluff' to shake DWB out of their complacency, however I can't see how Shamar's hand is strong enough if Nydahl chooses to call it.
Where did you get the claimed 700,000 figure from? I have never seen a membership numbers claim before for DWB. That would mean each of DWB's supposed 600 centres has an average of 1100 members. BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
My guess is that the majority of DWB centres are in members homes and have only a handful of regulars. Actual rented or owned properties are less than 100 or maybe even less than 50 (and total centres in continual existence for more than 5 yrs more like 200-300). Only the big centres in major cities might have more than 100 members and only the biggest 2-3 might something approaching 1000. I would reckon that DWB has 10,000 members worldwide at the very most. Not even big powerful and successful Tibetan Buddhist groups like the FMPT or the NKT would claim numbers even remotely close to what DWB claim.
As for your second point - well it all comes down to whether Shamar wants to do the right thing or if he is only interested in what DWB can do for him. Disowning Nydahl may damage his prospects but if he doesn't he reveals himself to be the man his critics make him out to be.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
carlitos
()
Date: July 20, 2012 03:11PM
Quote
warrenzQuote
suenam
Actually that sounds like a good idea, however - what would then become of the (claimed) 700,000 DWB members?
I think this idea may work if it is a 'bluff' to shake DWB out of their complacency, however I can't see how Shamar's hand is strong enough if Nydahl chooses to call it.
Where did you get the claimed 700,000 figure from? I have never seen a membership numbers claim before for DWB. That would mean each of DWB's supposed 600 centres has an average of 1100 members. BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
My guess is that the majority of DWB centres are in members homes and have only a handful of regulars. Actual rented or owned properties are less than 100 or maybe even less than 50 (and total centres in continual existence for more than 5 yrs more like 200-300). Only the big centres in major cities might have more than 100 members and only the biggest 2-3 might something approaching 1000. I would reckon that DWB has 10,000 members worldwide at the very most. Not even big powerful and successful Tibetan Buddhist groups like the FMPT or the NKT would claim numbers even remotely close to what DWB claim.
In Karma Guen we were in 2000 that came from all over the world. I asked about the number of course participants. In New York, 50 participants. Throughout Italy are 100 participants. Seville and Granada are 20. In France there is only one center in Paris about 20 people. In South America, the centers have an average of 10-15 people. The centers more numerous are in eastern Europe. In Hungary there is a center with 100 members.
You are right about Shamarpa and Ole, only power and glory. Really EGO.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
Sceptic Watcher
()
Date: July 20, 2012 03:53PM
@Suenam
Actually, I think this may be a bad idea. Whenever Ole says anything that may not be construed as Buddhist, he clearly points out that it is his personal opinion. For example, when he makes political comments, he says beforehand that this is his personal opinion and that Buddha could not have had an opinion on that matter. When he talks about his sexual exploits, he says that it is his shortcoming, that he isn't able to sleep alone - he doesn't claim that it is a Buddhist behavior.
I think that despite him teaching Dharma correctly, he is a bad teacher because all those other factors don't match. It's the same as with many other gurus who claim crazy wisdom (see Chögyam Trungpa, Ösel Tendzin).
@Number of students
warrenz, I think your number may be too low. By a conservative estimate, they have 7.200 members in Germany (they claim 20.000): In their online presence, they distinguish rented/bought places from loose groups; only those with rented/bought places may be called centres. In Germany, there are currently 72 groups and 70 centres. If we put the number of members in groups at 10 each (probably a bit too high on average) and in the centers at 100 each (probably a bit too low on average), that gives 7.200 members in Germany.
The 700.000 isn't actually 700.000, but some lower number in the 100.000s. It is the number of people having attended Ole's Phowa courses, but it only counts bought tickets, and does not distinguish wether somebody does the course twice or more times.
Quote
Personally, I think it's important to differentiate between the person of the teacher and the teaching itself. As I said in one of my earliest posts, Nydahl as an individual is not the issue here, it is the fact that he carries such influence and claims to represent true Dharma.
Actually, I think this may be a bad idea. Whenever Ole says anything that may not be construed as Buddhist, he clearly points out that it is his personal opinion. For example, when he makes political comments, he says beforehand that this is his personal opinion and that Buddha could not have had an opinion on that matter. When he talks about his sexual exploits, he says that it is his shortcoming, that he isn't able to sleep alone - he doesn't claim that it is a Buddhist behavior.
I think that despite him teaching Dharma correctly, he is a bad teacher because all those other factors don't match. It's the same as with many other gurus who claim crazy wisdom (see Chögyam Trungpa, Ösel Tendzin).
@Number of students
warrenz, I think your number may be too low. By a conservative estimate, they have 7.200 members in Germany (they claim 20.000): In their online presence, they distinguish rented/bought places from loose groups; only those with rented/bought places may be called centres. In Germany, there are currently 72 groups and 70 centres. If we put the number of members in groups at 10 each (probably a bit too high on average) and in the centers at 100 each (probably a bit too low on average), that gives 7.200 members in Germany.
The 700.000 isn't actually 700.000, but some lower number in the 100.000s. It is the number of people having attended Ole's Phowa courses, but it only counts bought tickets, and does not distinguish wether somebody does the course twice or more times.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
Sceptic Watcher
()
Date: July 20, 2012 05:28PM
Actually, my estimate was 20% too high. On this page, they claim to have 6.000 members (it's in german, but Google Translate delivers a reasonable translation).
Assuming that the number of centers and groups correlates with the number of members, and factoring in that other countries may not have such large centrers (reducing the total by 50%), that gives the following estimate:
142 german centers and groups with 6.000 members (42 members average per center/group)
650 centers and groups world wide
508 centers and groups without Germany with ~10.000 members (21 members average per center/group)
Totalling 16.000 members as a lower bound. Keep in mind that this assumes Germany is a lot more successful than other countries.
At a more reasonable 80% (33 members average), they would be at a total of 23.000.
At most, assuming other countries have the same average of 42, they would be at a total of 27.000 members world-wide.
Assuming that the number of centers and groups correlates with the number of members, and factoring in that other countries may not have such large centrers (reducing the total by 50%), that gives the following estimate:
142 german centers and groups with 6.000 members (42 members average per center/group)
650 centers and groups world wide
508 centers and groups without Germany with ~10.000 members (21 members average per center/group)
Totalling 16.000 members as a lower bound. Keep in mind that this assumes Germany is a lot more successful than other countries.
At a more reasonable 80% (33 members average), they would be at a total of 23.000.
At most, assuming other countries have the same average of 42, they would be at a total of 27.000 members world-wide.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
suenam
()
Date: July 20, 2012 08:09PM
My mistake, the figure was 70,000.
[www.globalbuddhism.org]
- "For example, in Germany - one of the countries with the largest number of Diamond Way followers - the German Buddhist Union (DBU) estimates that the number of regular visitors of Diamond Way centers and groups is 20,000.(9) The German Diamond Way umbrella association "Buddhistischer Dachverband Diamantweg", or BDD, estimates its (paying) memberships at 6,000.(10) As of October 2008, the Diamond Way Buddhist Network News (DWBN news) e-mail list has 10,000 subscribers.(11) A total of 4,500 participants attended the 2008 international meditation course at the newly purchased "Europe-Center."(12) Nydahl himself has stated that he has given one of his trademark special teachings, the transference of consciousness at the moment of death (Tibetan: 'pho ba), to around 70,000 people."
Even here I suspect that Nydahl's figure has counted the same people several times. Nydahl's wikipedia page suggests 15,000 to 70,000 as a conservative estimate. My experience was that only a small percentage of regular visitors were actually fully paid up members, so although your figure of 10,000 may be right for the core members, I think there are many more on the periphery.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2012 08:09PM by suenam.
[www.globalbuddhism.org]
- "For example, in Germany - one of the countries with the largest number of Diamond Way followers - the German Buddhist Union (DBU) estimates that the number of regular visitors of Diamond Way centers and groups is 20,000.(9) The German Diamond Way umbrella association "Buddhistischer Dachverband Diamantweg", or BDD, estimates its (paying) memberships at 6,000.(10) As of October 2008, the Diamond Way Buddhist Network News (DWBN news) e-mail list has 10,000 subscribers.(11) A total of 4,500 participants attended the 2008 international meditation course at the newly purchased "Europe-Center."(12) Nydahl himself has stated that he has given one of his trademark special teachings, the transference of consciousness at the moment of death (Tibetan: 'pho ba), to around 70,000 people."
Even here I suspect that Nydahl's figure has counted the same people several times. Nydahl's wikipedia page suggests 15,000 to 70,000 as a conservative estimate. My experience was that only a small percentage of regular visitors were actually fully paid up members, so although your figure of 10,000 may be right for the core members, I think there are many more on the periphery.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2012 08:09PM by suenam.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
Alexander Nevsky
()
Date: July 20, 2012 08:51PM
Quote
suenam
My mistake, the figure was 70,000.
[www.globalbuddhism.org]
- "For example, in Germany - one of the countries with the largest number of Diamond Way followers - the German Buddhist Union (DBU) estimates that the number of regular visitors of Diamond Way centers and groups is 20,000.(9) The German Diamond Way umbrella association "Buddhistischer Dachverband Diamantweg", or BDD, estimates its (paying) memberships at 6,000.(10) As of October 2008, the Diamond Way Buddhist Network News (DWBN news) e-mail list has 10,000 subscribers.(11) A total of 4,500 participants attended the 2008 international meditation course at the newly purchased "Europe-Center."(12) Nydahl himself has stated that he has given one of his trademark special teachings, the transference of consciousness at the moment of death (Tibetan: 'pho ba), to around 70,000 people."
Even here I suspect that Nydahl's figure has counted the same people several times. Nydahl's wikipedia page suggests 15,000 to 70,000 as a conservative estimate. My experience was that only a small percentage of regular visitors were actually fully paid up members, so although your figure of 10,000 may be right for the core members, I think there are many more on the periphery.
Suenam, Burkhard Scherer is one of diamondway teachers:
[diamondway.org.au]
[info-buddhismus.de]
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
suenam
()
Date: July 20, 2012 09:11PM
Quote
Alexander Nevsky
Suenam, Burkhard Scherer is one of diamondway teachers:
[diamondway.org.au]
[info-buddhismus.de]
Yes, clearly this a claim made by DWB and I think that warrenz is right when he said that these figures are inflated.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
suenam
()
Date: July 20, 2012 09:29PM
Quote
Sceptic Watcher
Whenever Ole says anything that may not be construed as Buddhist, he clearly points out that it is his personal opinion. For example, when he makes political comments, he says beforehand that this is his personal opinion and that Buddha could not have had an opinion on that matter.
Personally I haven't witnessed this. In the lectures I have been to Nydahl has started off talking about Dharma and then digressed into his personal opinion without any disclaimer. In fact it appears as if these digressions are actually intended as exemplars of the topic he is lecturing on.
It was only afterwards, upon being questioned on it, that he backpeddaled and tried to differentiate his personal opinion from Buddhadharma.
The issue for me is that his personal opinions not only appear to completely contradict Buddhadharma, but that also, when explaining or when questioned on the Dharma he does appear to be a bit clueless.
I do actually think that he works well with emotional obscurations, however his lack of philosophical rigour, and the fact that he seems to eschew any attempt to deal with intellectual obscurations results in a stance that come across as 'guilt-free consumerism' (ie. spiritual materialism).
PS. I think your estimated figures of between 16,000 and 27,000 members sounds about right.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2012 09:31PM by suenam.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
suenam
()
Date: July 20, 2012 11:22PM
Quote
Sceptic Watcher
I think that despite him teaching Dharma correctly, he is a bad teacher because all those other factors don't match. It's the same as with many other gurus who claim crazy wisdom (see Chögyam Trungpa, Ösel Tendzin).
My perception of this is completely different. Yes, Trungpa, Sogyal, Shamar, etc. may be seen as having weaknesses and shortcomings and perhaps could be said to have set a poor examples, however I personally think that they at least have shown a degree of theoretical knowledge which means that they could point their students in the right direction.
To anyone wishing to learn about Buddhism I would recommend any of their books just as enthusiastically as I would warn against reading Nydahl's.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
warrenz
()
Date: July 21, 2012 01:48AM
Even if the advertized figure is 70,000 I think it is still a gross overestimation. Perhaps my figure of 10,000 is too low but I was trying to compare against a similar group - the NKT.
It claims 200 centers and 900 associated study groups in 40 countries. This is more than the c.650 centers/groups claimed by DWB in c. 50 countries. Yet the NKT's wikipedia page puts membership at 8,000 only! And you can be sure they track membership very carefully for fund raising purposes. NKT is way more organized, better funded and seeks new members even more ruthlessly than DWB, I find it hard to believe that DWB may be two or even three times bigger by Sceptic Watchers conservative estimate.
I suspect the c.650 figure is all the centers/groups DWB have ever tried to open. In my experience in several different Buddhist traditions over the years, starting and maintaining centers is very difficult. People are often enthusiastic for a while but lose interest after a period and the center effectively dies. Also moving from just a group of friends who meditate together to making a financial commitment to buy a place or even hire a room on a regular basis is a big step and one that many small groups never make. The actual number of active DWB centers that have a regular weekly programme of events I doubt is anything near 650.
Measuring who buys tickets to big events is not really a good way to gauge current membership. I know, in my experience, Buddhist centers that would have 20 people come to regular weekly events/classes would get 200 when a Tibetan lama came to town. When Thaye Dorje first came to Europe, some 6,000 turned out to see him somewhere in Germany. I suspect that was every DW member in Europe who could possibly make it and a whole lot of curious onlookers who came to the big event. Next week they would go see the Dalai Lama or Thich Nhat Hanh. Indeed an Irish friend told me recently that 2,000 people came to an event with Thich Nhat Hanh in Dublin recently - but his group in Dublin only numbers a few dozen.
Groups with big memberships like the NKT or FMPT also have lots of structured courses and programmes you can do at their centers through out the year and progress with. I may be wrong but I don't feel the at DWB centers there are structured activities more just one-off talks on different subjects. Providing structure like this is one of the things makes people come back again and again to a centre. I am not sure then how DWB manages to retain a large membership. Not everyone who visits his going to find it to their liking or stick around if they have not signed up to a course. So are the 70,000 paid up members or just the number of tickets sold to DWB events worldwide in a given time period? Or, as I suspect, a figure plucked from the air?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2012 01:52AM by warrenz.
It claims 200 centers and 900 associated study groups in 40 countries. This is more than the c.650 centers/groups claimed by DWB in c. 50 countries. Yet the NKT's wikipedia page puts membership at 8,000 only! And you can be sure they track membership very carefully for fund raising purposes. NKT is way more organized, better funded and seeks new members even more ruthlessly than DWB, I find it hard to believe that DWB may be two or even three times bigger by Sceptic Watchers conservative estimate.
I suspect the c.650 figure is all the centers/groups DWB have ever tried to open. In my experience in several different Buddhist traditions over the years, starting and maintaining centers is very difficult. People are often enthusiastic for a while but lose interest after a period and the center effectively dies. Also moving from just a group of friends who meditate together to making a financial commitment to buy a place or even hire a room on a regular basis is a big step and one that many small groups never make. The actual number of active DWB centers that have a regular weekly programme of events I doubt is anything near 650.
Measuring who buys tickets to big events is not really a good way to gauge current membership. I know, in my experience, Buddhist centers that would have 20 people come to regular weekly events/classes would get 200 when a Tibetan lama came to town. When Thaye Dorje first came to Europe, some 6,000 turned out to see him somewhere in Germany. I suspect that was every DW member in Europe who could possibly make it and a whole lot of curious onlookers who came to the big event. Next week they would go see the Dalai Lama or Thich Nhat Hanh. Indeed an Irish friend told me recently that 2,000 people came to an event with Thich Nhat Hanh in Dublin recently - but his group in Dublin only numbers a few dozen.
Groups with big memberships like the NKT or FMPT also have lots of structured courses and programmes you can do at their centers through out the year and progress with. I may be wrong but I don't feel the at DWB centers there are structured activities more just one-off talks on different subjects. Providing structure like this is one of the things makes people come back again and again to a centre. I am not sure then how DWB manages to retain a large membership. Not everyone who visits his going to find it to their liking or stick around if they have not signed up to a course. So are the 70,000 paid up members or just the number of tickets sold to DWB events worldwide in a given time period? Or, as I suspect, a figure plucked from the air?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2012 01:52AM by warrenz.
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