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Carlitos:
Did you try to ask these questions in your local centre where Ole gets financing from? Or inquire about a Phowa signs? I think you should try it you might have fun day with them.
That is something new about EC in Monaco? Are they preparing for Muslim invasion,they will be hiding in Monaco?
That is good news that Karma Guen was donated to Karmapa, not to DW trust.
Ole is openly asking people to give money to fulfil his own dreams, amazing. Did he mention about merit, give in this live, in next live you will be great meditator? Why wait for the next live if we can be good meditators in this.
I have to adore this man(Ole) ,seriously his leaving the dream. Wealth ,ladies, following. Rock'n'roll star!
On serious not, if DW Buddhist want Buddha' Teachings not Rock'n'roll they should request Ole to go on very long retreat, sign everything they have to Karmapa, and most importantly stop kidding them selves that they are THE Buddhist Organisation working for all sentient beings.

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suenam
I view it as sound advice and a reinforcement of what I take to be sound Buddhist practice rather than an attack on anyone in particular - that's why I fail to see why the dates are relevant - given that the ideas found there may also be found in texts from over 1000 years ago, I fail to see how one from 3 years ago could be called "old".

You may wish to speculate on Shamarpa's motivation and political intentions, but it seems to me that one thing remains clear, at least at face value Shamarpa is teaching the Dharma.

Rather, what this says to me is that even though Shamar knows what he should do, he has decided to do the opposite. He is, as the saying goes, someone who talks out of both sides of his mouth. He will say one thing when it suits him and the opposite when it suits him.

This cannot be rationalized away as skillful means. That Shamar chooses not to distance himself or his candidate (who, let's not forget, is nearly 30 and old enough to be making his own decisions - why does he not speak out either?) from Ole, allows Ole to continue his shenanigans. Shamar's letter (even if he doesn't really mean it as you suggest) enables Ole's behavior. It allows him to continue the sort of non-dharmic actions catalogued throughout these last 120+ pages.

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suenam

It strikes me that what Nydahl teaches is something different, but whether it has struck Shamarpa yet I cannot say - I've never seen him in a Nydahl lecture, and while it is possible that he has a hidden agenda, at least from where I'm looking he has seemed to make some effort to encourage Nydahl to get back in line without alienating him completely. I find it hard to believe that Shamarpa is unaware of the situation, but clearly he isn't ready to give up DWB as a lost cause just yet.

I think given the points he addresses in his letter of support, Shamar knows exactly what the general criticisms of Nydahl are. If he was really concerned there are many other things he could do - like not teaching at DW centres for a start! I am sorry Suenam because I can understand how hard it would be if I thought that any of my teachers were supporting someone like Ole but you really do seem to stretching any reasonable credibility here to find some way of avoiding the obvious. Shamar and Thaye Dorje need to stop providing support for Ole Nydahl. If they don't, it only undermines their own reputations.

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suenam
While the apparently recent letter may suggest his support is unequivocal, the message from his website is fairly clear - personal views involving political and dualistic grasping at relative worldly truths only serve to detract from the genuine teachings of the Buddha, as Corboy says, "He probably relies on people to heed these indirect hints."

Do you seriously think that just because Nydahl hasn't developed the subtlety to understand that yet invariably means that Shamarpa should just write him off along with the whole DWB following?

What about the people who continue to be exposed to the nonsense and manipulation and those newcomers who will be drawn in because they believe Ole is trusted by the Tibetan hierarchy and his teachings are authentic? By not trying to separate the ordinary Buddhists in DW from Nydahl, he is abandoning them. Can't you see that?

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warrenz
By not trying to separate the ordinary Buddhists in DW from Nydahl, he is abandoning them. Can't you see that?

Oh yes, I agree completely, but I fail to see how this could be accomplished, particularly if Shamarpa withdraws his support as you suggest - would this not risk polarizing the situation?

On a minor point, my experience of current and prospective members was that the idea that "Ole is trusted by the Tibetan hierarchy and his teachings are authentic" was actually one of the last things on their mind.
I witnessed several people who were looking for authenticity to reject the DWB option rather quickly and those that became members did so because of the 'social club' aspect.

Certainly anyone who was truly serious about practising Buddhism would find little substance there, and that leads me to wonder whether Sharmpa is not playing the long game in that respect.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2012 04:09AM by suenam.

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Nyalaana
Recently there have been some speculations here why Sharmapa might speak out for or against Ole Nydal. I can not imagine the Sharmapa to speak out against Ole, if Ole does not attack TB or all the Lamas or Sharmapa directly. Why should he? He might say Ole is a genuine teacher even if he does not aggree with several standpoints of Ole, like view on Islam or his sexual behavior. He does not have to demand Ole being perfect. He knows Ole is getting old. Ole will die someday. Nobody knows what will happen wit all the Diamond Way Centers and their followers. Chances that Sharmapa and his organizations will profit from that are good, so why should he waste this potential by making Ole his enemy?

In one way what you are saying is that Shamar is playing a cynical game - waiting for Ole to die so he can get his hands on the DW property and membership list.

Well Ole could live another 10-15 years - in fact he must be in pretty good shape to keep up the lifestyle that he does into his 70s (even if it is now with the aid of Viagra!). Shamar is in early 60s and doesn't look anything like as healthy as Ole. My bet (not that I wish harm to either of them) is that Ole will outlive Shamar.

Even if I am not so jaded as to believe Shamar capable of such cynicism. Instead, by claiming a large Western following to add to his rich patrons in Communist China (where the real money is!), Shamar can continue to give the finger to the rest of the Karma Kagyu lineage and keep alive his hope that he will run the show one day.

As for Ole not attacking TB or lamas - have you not read Rogues in Robes (written by Ole's senior student Tomek Lehnert)?? Virtually every Karma Kagyu Lama is attacked in that book - except Shamar of course.

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suenam
Oh yes, I agree completely, but I fail to see how this could be accomplished, particularly if Shamarpa withdraws his support as you suggest - would this not risk polarizing the situation?

On a minor point, my experience of current and prospective members was that the idea that "Ole is trusted by the Tibetan hierarchy and his teachings are authentic" was actually one of the last things on their mind.
I witnessed several people who were looking for authenticity to reject the DWB option rather quickly and those that became members did so because of the 'social club' aspect.

Certainly anyone who was truly serious about practising Buddhism would find little substance there, and that leads me to wonder whether Sharmpa is not playing the long game in that respect.

If, as you suggest, DW members are mostly in it for the social aspect then they probably not going to be interested in an Shamar/Thaye Dorje run organization - unless the latter turns out to be a party animal too (which I doubt). In which case once Ole passes into nirvana DW will quietly disappear (hopefully rather than violently implode). Maybe Shamar does not understand that?

No, as I said in my reply to Nyalaana, I think retaining Ole's support for the time being is more important for Shamar than what may happen in the future. Without DW, his number of supporters is relatively insignificant. In any case, DW inflates its numbers - notice it always boasts the number of centers never the number of members. And the number of real centers with their own rented/mortgaged/owned premises is nowhere near the 600+ claimed. Even so without Ole numbers behind him Shamar's claim to the throne looks considerably weaker. As Ogyen Trinley looks increasing like taking on the role of the spiritual leader of the Tibetan people in the period between this Dalai Lama and the next, Shamar's claim to have found the true Karmapa is looking less credible all the time. Shamar needs all the support he can get.

I asked the DW Center's members. They told me that travel costs was paid from the Centers alla around the word. They pointed out that Ole has nothing, (no house, no cars, no money) and gives everything to the European Centre. I aswered that he used the cars, houses, money of others people!I asked why Ole is not established at the European Center, teaches there, and a couple of times a year traveling in larger centers to give teachings, as do a lot of monks of the Shamar Rimpoche. They responded me that he travels and works a lot just to spread Buddhism Vajariana and only Ole, in all the world, practice "Vajariana pure." All the hard work he does is just for us practitioners. Regarding the sign of Powa, they were told me I had too many expectations before I left to Powa Course and the real fact that it was not the sign is also because I was afraid of death. When I informed that in September I went to visit a center of Shamar Rinpoche, near the city where I live, they informed me that I could go but I had to choose whether to practice with a Ole's center or a center of Shamarpa. At this point, I said they were too sectarian and I am gone.

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warrenz
If, as you suggest, DW members are mostly in it for the social aspect then they probably not going to be interested in an Shamar/Thaye Dorje run organization - unless the latter turns out to be a party animal too (which I doubt). In which case once Ole passes into nirvana DW will quietly disappear (hopefully rather than violently implode). Maybe Shamar does not understand that?

No, as I said in my reply to Nyalaana, I think retaining Ole's support for the time being is more important for Shamar than what may happen in the future. Without DW, his number of supporters is relatively insignificant. In any case, DW inflates its numbers - notice it always boasts the number of centers never the number of members. And the number of real centers with their own rented/mortgaged/owned premises is nowhere near the 600+ claimed. Even so without Ole numbers behind him Shamar's claim to the throne looks considerably weaker. As Ogyen Trinley looks increasing like taking on the role of the spiritual leader of the Tibetan people in the period between this Dalai Lama and the next, Shamar's claim to have found the true Karmapa is looking less credible all the time. Shamar needs all the support he can get.

I wasn't suggesting it was so clear cut, while many members are initially attracted more by the social aspect, they do tend to develop an interest the longer they remain. Unfortunately as Carlitos' recent contribution shows, it does tend toward evangelical-fundamentalist hysteria, so it would require working into something a bit more mindful.

One thing I'm not clear on here - earlier you suggested Shamarpa wasn't a pushover and that he should stand up to Nydahl, withdraw his support etc., but from what you've written here it seems that a consequence of this is that he withdraw his 'claim to the throne' too. While we may see that as Shamar's personal ambition, I'm certain Shamarpa believes he is trying to do what is best for the Kagyu lineage - it would seem that he is currently caught between a rock and a hard place in that respect. Are you suggesting that by withdrawing his support for DWB that Shamarpa himself should simply admit defeat and retire gracefully?

An interesting information about Urgen Trinley:



Friday, July 8, 2011

India police charge Tibet holy man in money probe

By ASHWINI BHATIA, Associated Press

Thursday, December 8, 2011


Saurabh Das / AP

In this Wednesday, Nov. 30, 2011 photo, Tibetan Buddhism's third most important leader Ugyen Thinley Dorje, the 17th Karmapa, speaks with Buddhist leaders at an all faith prayer meeting at the Gandhi Memorial in New Delhi, India in New Delhi, India. Indian police have charged Tibetan Buddhism's third most important leader and three of his followers in a probe into $1.35 million in cash discovered early this year at his headquarters in northern India, a police officer said Thursday, Dec. 8, 2011.

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(12-08) 07:28 PST DHARMSALA, India (AP) --

Indian authorities have filed charges against Tibetan Buddhism's third most important leader following an investigation into $1.35 million in cash discovered at his headquarters in northern India, police said Thursday.

The money was found last January during a police raid on the Karmapa's monastery. It was in nearly two dozen currencies, and the Karmapa's aides said it had been donated by his followers, who came from all over the world.

But the amount of cash, which included a large sum of Chinese yuan, concerned police, who said the sums were too large to be merely from donations.

The raid on the Gyuto Monastery was unprecedented and particularly surprising since the Karmapa, Ugyen Thinley Dorje, is revered by Tibetans and Buddhists. India has gone to great lengths to provide asylum to Buddhist leaders who have fled Tibet, including the Dalai Lama.

The Karmapa, 26, is seen as one of the Dalai Lama's potential successors as the leader of Tibetan Buddhism.

On Wednesday, police filed charges against the Karmapa and three of his followers in a local court at the end of the investigation, said Sumedha Diwedi, a superintendent of police.

The court will soon examine the evidence submitted by the police and decide whether the Karmapa and his followers should be tried on the charges.

A spokesman for the Tibetan government-in-exile said he was sure no Indian laws had deliberately been broken.

"What resulted was due to negligence on part of the staff members of the Karmapa," Thupten Samphal told The Associated Press. "It is also a case of ignorance of the Indian law. Now that the case is on, law should take its own course."

The Karmapa's office later said it had cooperated fully and provided the authorities with complete details and documents pertaining to the case.

"At no point of time His Holiness was ever called or examined by the investigating agency," the statement from the office said. "His Holiness has no involvement, direct or indirect, in the financial administration of the office or trust."

The statement said the next course of action would be decided after the court decided on the charge-sheet filed by police.

While the Karmapa was charged with conspiracy and knowledge of undeclared money, the three followers face the additional charges of cheating and forgery of documents. If convicted, the Karmapa faces up to two years in prison, and his followers up to 10 years.

Diwedi said police have also sought the permission of the federal government to prosecute the Karmapa and the followers for allegedly violating India's foreign currency laws in collecting the donations.

The Karmapa left Tibet in 2000. Since then, he has been living at the monastery in Sidhbari, just outside Dharmsala, which has been the headquarters of the self-declared Tibetan government-in-exile since the Dalai Lama fled the Himalayan region in 1959.

China's government reviles the Dalai Lama, accusing him of pushing for independence for Tibet and sowing trouble there. A boy named by the Dalai Lama in 1995 as the second-highest Tibetan spiritual leader, the Panchen Lama, disappeared shortly afterward, and China selected another boy.


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When in doubt throw blame on the underlings so that the guru's reputation can remain unsullied.

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"What resulted was due to negligence on part of the staff members of the Karmapa," Thupten Samphal told The Associated Press. "It is also a case of ignorance of the Indian law. Now that the case is on, law should take its own course."

So the story goes, Bodhisattvas live to spread the Dharma and will visit hell realms to do so. At the very least, the Karmapa should see to it that the right officials are spoken to and his underlings get out of jail instead of waiting for years until charges or filed or forgotten about.

In India it takes years longer than in the UK or US before cases go to court. Unless the right officials are spoken with and won over, the underlings could be in prison for years, until the trial or dismissal of charges.


One kind of law for the powerful, another kind for the underlings

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While the Karmapa was charged with conspiracy and knowledge of undeclared money, the three followers face the additional charges of cheating and forgery of documents. If convicted, the Karmapa faces up to two years in prison, and his followers up to 10 years.