Yes, I am too. We know he is involved with homophobic and islamophobic groups in Poland.

Hi Rinpoche.

Quote:

"We know he is involved with homophobic and islamophobic groups in Poland."

I assume this is Ole Nydahl you are refering to. Is there actual proof of this? I tried to find evidence to support this myself some years ago but couldn't. Can you give us details of the groups and proof of his active involvement.

Steve

what about talking about oslo and ole instead if taking this so literally ?

Quote
oamoam
what about talking about oslo and ole instead if taking this so literally ?

I think we've established the level of denial that exists in Ole's thinking and his organistion as a whole, similar to the right-wing politcians who sent their sympathy to Norway as if they failed to realise that they had more in common with the perpetrator than with those targeted.

It's quite strange that while many DWB members seem to believe Ole has certain "superpowers" - controlling the weather, jumping from windows, knowledge of past lives, his sexual vigour, etc. - the most basic "siddhis" of developing insight, perspective, understanding, and self-awareness seem to be absent there. It's almost as if they have completely overlooked the doctrine of emptiness in favour of the idea of mastery.

What is Ole and DWB really talking about, I wonder.

Is it that many European countries have botched the immigration process by not insuring there is adequate education, services, language training and cultural acclimation in general?

Or is it that European Moslems are politically organized and "threatening" to import fundamentalist cultural practices?

Or is it the religion in general that they find offensive.

Quote
jah
What is Ole and DWB really talking about, I wonder.

Is it that many European countries have botched the immigration process by not insuring there is adequate education, services, language training and cultural acclimation in general?

Or is it that European Moslems are politically organized and "threatening" to import fundamentalist cultural practices?

Or is it the religion in general that they find offensive.

The first would suggest developing some sort of perspective and joining the dots, so that's out. As for the third, Ole praises the "Abrahamic" religions to the point where he seems to overlook any similar behaviour such as sectarian violence, fundamentalism, child abuse, gender inequality, or the fact that it was a relatively short time ago in history that "we" acted in exactly the same way...

The second seems closest, although you've expressed it too clearly. Clearly Ole feels threatened and offended by Islamic values, and no doubt wishes to silence their voices in the name of "democracy", but as he appears to lack any self-awareness he expresses it as if they are the ones who are attacking his values rather than vice-versa.

In fact there seems to be a lot of what psychoanalysts call "transference phenomenon" going on in DWB, where members mistakenly ascribe their own disturbing thoughts and emotions to the other.
A true understanding of Karma would suggest that if there is a disturbing emotion present in any relationship, then blaming the other is a failure to take responsibility.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2011 12:33PM by suenam.

...thinking on that reminds me of the sheer weight of generalisations that Ole Nydahl makes in his talks; men are like this, women are like that, Christians, Jews, Moslems all get the Nydahl treatment, and this is done on the grossest level of pigeonholing other groups. I've even noticed some of the travelling teachers copying this behaviour.

It seems like a way of influencing the group by adding a filter to their perception of others, and seems more like an expression of his desire rather than an attempt to be accurate, for example, men are all red-blooded heterosexual thrilll seekers (narcissism?). So this seems prescriptive and serves to define the members of the group in terms of an imaginary (and rather unsubtle) "other".

I left DWB last autumn for several reasons and had some time to think since my last post.

The introduction of an enemy (islam) and structural division between 'us' and 'them', without any nuance or perspective of working towards overcoming stereotyping, stigmatizing and generalizing, is simply poison. By allowing only two opposing camps to exist it seperates and blocks the people who (together) can build bridges and solve problems. 'Who is not with us, is against us' forces every individual to take a side or, even worse, forces people to decide for other individuals in which of the two camps they belong, no matter what the other individuals might think or try to accomplish themselves.
Thus, by cultivating this 24 karat dualistic view, Nydahl is in my opinion actively stimulating alienation and incomprehension, the fuel for (more) aversion, fear and hatred.

-

Apart from the discussion wheter or not islam is a threat for our western society, this is the heart of my critique regarding Ole Nydahl's anti-islam propaganda: it is static, problem oriented and drives human beings apart.

What i would expect from a lama is a dynamic, solution oriented view that brings people together.

suenam: (just putting my skeptical hat on for a mo...)

Quote

"I think we've established the level of denial that exists in Ole's thinking and his organistion as a whole, similar to the right-wing politcians who sent their sympathy to Norway as if they failed to realise that they had more in common with the perpetrator than with those targeted."

You may think that we have established 'the level of denial that exists in Ole's thinking' to your level of satisfaction, but how are you going to convince a Diamond Way Believer of that? A DW Believer will almost certainly not trust an anti-cult forum that calls his or her group of 'friends' a cult. You need more if DW Believers are to be convinced that they are in a cult. Their ultimate interest in Ole is as a Buddhist Lama, and on Shamarpa's authority he may call himself Lama. So to undermine his claim to be a Karma Kagyu Lama you must undermine Shamarpa and this is impractical. So we must accept that he is an authentic Karma Kagyu Lama. We don't have to like this, but we need to accept it if we're not to run round in circles. We should accept that Karma Kagyu is Tibetan Buddhist and that both sides of the Karmapa split are potentially genuine, else a DW Believer will simply reject your position as 'following the fake Karmapa' and you will be back to square one. There are many good right-wing people and many bad right-wing people, so just identifying Ole as right-wing is insufficient to make a solid point. Denial is a psychological term that is also used by psychiatric people. You need to define denial so as not to appear to be claiming that Ole is psychiatrically ill, since a DW believer won't accept that. Thus a moderate may accept your arguments with a pinch of salt, a DWB=Cult convert may accept and believe you but a DW Believer will not accept and will not believe. Have a think.

Quote

"It's quite strange that while many DWB members seem to believe Ole has certain "superpowers" - controlling the weather, jumping from windows, knowledge of past lives, his sexual vigour, etc. - the most basic "siddhis" of developing insight, perspective, understanding, and self-awareness seem to be absent there. It's almost as if they have completely overlooked the doctrine of emptiness in favour of the idea of mastery."

Yes. Ole is an idol to many of his followers. If all could just see him as a teacher of a kind of Buddhism, things would be better. But people like to worship their idols and don't like to be denied this 'right' to practise their 'belief' or 'faith' as they 'choose'. This is a problem that DW is not sufficiently aware of, so how to we raise their awareness without them rejecting our thinking?

With any luck, someone who is considering joining Diamond Way might, just might, do an internet search, find this information. Even if they decide to try out a DW sangha, finding this information may help them recognize signs of trouble and when to leave before they become too involved, financially or emotionally.

Persons who are in DW who have misgivings or are concerned that their questions are being brushed aside may decide to run a Google search, find this discussion thread and find that misgivings they already had are shared by others.

Friends, partners or employees of someone who is heavily prosyltizing DW and who have concerns may profit from reading what is here.

Persons who have already invested their emotions too deeply to respond to outside input will probably not be swayed by any amount of information or argument.

Providing information and a discussion space that are private and not in any way controlled by DW is itself a service.