'Lama Ole has, if anything, calmed down. Within the last five years I have seen him speak four times and each time was ‘better’, more respectful'

Just can't resist this one: Life itself has a way of calming down priapic old men and 'bad boys', and, without getting too explicit, it has more to do with aging and the toll that takes on the body than with getting 'better' and more respectful.

In my experience, the core values that one has followed throughout life persist, even when the body can no longer perform quite so well.
How old is Ole now, has he heard about viagra and what teaching/life lesson do you think has caused this 'better and more respectful' Ole to emerge?

Dear Suenam & Stoic,

Perhaps we are not understanding one another. I am no zealout defending Ole Nydahl; I stated my case and I think it is quite clear. I express my points as mere oppinion, for how could they possibly be anything else?

Suenam: I accept what you say and my reply is: There are many authors, teachers, leaders, etc, whom to me may appear to be teaching or preaching subject matter that doesn't appeal to my view, and yet I may still learn from them. Similarly, there will be other such teachers teaching within a 'sound' tradition that simply may not appeal to me. In the case of DW, I have my reasons for not adhering to them (as I listed);
To answer your question, how can one separate the two: How can we know what goes on in the mind of the 'other'? We cannot. We can judge, but that is pointless. We can also observe, and make decisions based on these observations. My observations tell me there are oddities and problems with Ole. Other observations, as I stated, tell me that the tradition functions much like any other, and the form of Buddhism practised is as sound as most others.

I have not seen any evidence of a Lama Ole Church cult at all. Perhaps you have, that is entirely possible. I have seen more of a personality cult take place at various ISKCON or FPMT centers, but that is a different issue.

I suppose the issue here is (at least in part), that due to my mind having delusions, I will see incredible faults in anyone. Furthermore, because I am naturally quite critical and do not ‘belong’ to any specific tradition, I am apt to see warning signs and faults everywhere. I have learned to open my mind beyond this limited view and, keeping emptiness in mind, see things in a wider way. As I mentioned, I have these good friends who are DWBs. There is absolutely nothing cultish about them, nor do they engage in the non virtues you listed. They are wonderful, cherishing, wise individuals, and they hold Lama Ole as their Guru. It hasn’t seemed to affect them in a negative way. This is my direct observation.

Stoic: I’m not completely sure what you mean by your statement, perhaps you could clarify. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but it sounds to me like your statements may be coming from resentment and judgement; which is fine, but possibly will not solve any issues there may be here.

Peace

Dear corboy and others,
the texts about bad boy behavior have been very explaining for me. They opened a new perspective to look at many things be it Ole Nydahl, be it the women who adore him or be it behavior in "normal" life in general. I lot of things i can think about now. Thanks a lot.

Its not just my insight. Others have caught on.


Richard Burton's fame soared after he disappeared with Elizabeth Taylor from the set of Cleopatra and the two of them vanished into a hotel. One wit said that Burton must've spent the time having acting lessons because when he emerged, his contract value went up to one million dollars. Bad Boys attract bigger audiences.

Murderers get love letters.

[www.google.com]

Humphrey Bogart--cult figure. In his lifetime some clubs refused to let him in--he had too much of a track record for bad behavior when drunk.

Hunter S Thompson--renowned as a great writer and also as a Bad Boy

Just think of pirate movies and stories--an enduringly popular genre.

In the late 17th and 18th century in England, highwaymen were romanticized.

Another facet of the Bad Boy genre is the vampire. Gangster movies.

Rogue soldiers who go out and, so the story goes, do the job better than the ones who follow orders.

Today we have the rock stars. Look at the fame and notoriety of the Rolling Stones, Jim Morrison, Ozzy Osbourne, Sid Vicious, and the entire punk scene.

So with Ole we have a sort of anti establishment lama who probably needs to hire plenty of establishment types (eg accountants) to keep track of his finances. Thats the hilarious thing.

There has been no shortage of this in the so called New Age scene.

Chogyam Trungpa--Bad Boy. Rationalized it as Crazy Wisdom When WS Merwin and his wife refused to join one of Trungpa's drunken parties, their door was broken down and they were dragged in. This was rationalized as the Great Naropa Poetry War.

Muktananda--Bad Boy. He not only preyed on women and girls, he liked to go around with large attack dogs, had thug enforcers and weapons were found at his Santa Monica ashram. Liked wearing dark glasses, too.

Andrew Cohen--Rude Boy

Rajneesh/Osho---Bad Boy

Buddha never taught any of this. He could have retained all the warrior trappings--he was born into power and privilage. But he learned it could not answer his questions and he walked away from the very trappings that Ole, Trungpa and the others have been so eager to claim.

It’s so easy isn't it, to shove everyone into categories. But reality doesn’t correspond to such a simplified system.

If, instead, you can name me one prominent individual, from any era, who does NOT have a slew of smears attached to his or her name, I would be far more impressed. Mother Theresa has been branded a ‘racist whore’ by many Indians, Gandhi has been accused for being the reason India suffers such extreme poverty these days and both God and Buddha themselves have been accused of being self righteous impersonalists with evil intentions.

For the Buddhist readers out there, you know the story about the mahasiddha Ghantapa? People judged him based on their very limited worldly perception of him and his courtesan, when in fact they turned out to be emanations of Heruka and Vajrayogini. Perhaps this is a universal lesson: We don’t know as much as we think, and appearances can be deceptive.

Sorry for veering off the subject somewhat. Peace.x

Sulmaya:

It's really beginning to seem like you are essentially here to offer apologies and spin for Ole and his "Diamond Way".

I think Sulmaya makes a good point. We can never really know what is the mind of someone else. I was told to confront Ole and ask him about the views I opposed. I explained that this was rather pointless because I could never know if the answers I got were true or lies? I would come away with the same doubts. Only I can work through these issues. I could never recognize these qualities in him if I didn't have them myself.

Regarding what I saw as cult behaviour, I have told the story here before how the leaders in the Liverpool Centre proposed a ‘cull’ of the members that they, the leaders, deemed were not Diamond Way practitioners. They wanted ‘idealistic’ people. I wonder where they got that catchphrase? Any doubts raised about Ole were often ‘shouted’ down. Voices had been raised and disapproving glances cast. It is possible that I am judging DWB on the poor behaviour of one of the leaders in Liverpool. Several people had moved out of the centre after claiming he was a bully. One left in tears as I recall.

My experience was that DWB was ‘cultish’. But not everyone I met had bought into it and, like you, found something rewarding in the practices. This is fine. I wish more moderate people would join and change the dynamic of DWB.

Of course the world looks yellow to someone with a jaundiced eye so I am aware that my comments are always tainted in some way by my experiences. If I accepted Ole’s views without question I would probably be writing on this forum to defend him. I couldn’t accept Ole’s world view and this was a problem for the leaders of the centre. No matter that I’d given many hours of my time to work on the building, donated cash and ran the place and guided meditations while they were away. I was told that, as I would oppose any members being ejected on their apparent lack of Diamond Wayness, I was perceived as a potential problem. Of course I was perceived as a problem if I question such decisions. Rather than discuss it I was told to find somewhere else to practice. It sounds cultish to me but of course I may have a different idea of what is cult behaviour to others.

Are they dangerous? Not yet, I don’t think so. But one travelling teacher discussed blowing up mosques with Muslims in them and another told me black people serve no useful function in our society. And these people were hand-picked by Ole as his finest students and worthy of the job of spreading the DWB message.

Steve

Quote
rrmoderator
Sulmaya:

It's really beginning to seem like you are essentially here to offer apologies and spin for Ole and his "Diamond Way".

Dear rrmoderator, no I am not, and apologise if the list of problems I listed about Nydahl did not clearly illustrate the fact that I am far removed from being an Ole defender or promoter.

Like you, I am expressing my opinions, which have various sides to them due to the fact that reality isn't two dimensional.

Dear Steve, those are indeed shocking observations and had I witnessed such statements being made by 'buddhist teachers', I would have shunned them and probably advised other people against the tradition. Can you tell us who these racist teachers were?

Sulmaya,

I judge, constantly and relentlessly. It is an indispensible part of the decision making process. I make a lot of decisions.

You may pretend that you are judgement free, it is the PC way, but I think that you are kidding yourself.

I also have resentments, particularly towards those who pretend to be on a higher plane in order to exert power over and to con others.
I am keeping those resentments too.

The only issue that I see here is a discussion of Ole Nydahl and his Diamond Way. Its a free discussion, nothing to be solved.
What problem do you see here that you think must be solved?

It would seem as if some DWB centres are more prone than others, particularly the larger ones in big cities.

My observation is that these "oddities and problems with Ole" seem to get reproduced in some individuals, especially those higher up in the organisation, and that this has an effect on the group as a whole. I also think that some individuals are more susceptible than others, and so this group dynamic can be quite damaging for those who are more vulnerable.

I myself know some decent DWB members, and perhaps it is unsurprising that they are the ones who stay on the periphery. My experience is that they are in a very small minority within the DWB organisation.