Mahamudra Meditation, Awareness and Enlightenment
Posted by:
Guruphobiac
()
Date: July 29, 2008 07:50AM
A former member of the ashram I was a part of has become enamored of something called Mahamudra Meditation. It is being taught/promoted by Daniel P. Brown*, Ph.D, coauthor some decades ago of Transformations of Consciousness with Ken Wilber and Jack Engler. Engler, actually, was helpful over a decade ago when the Kripalu community went through its upheaval and booted the guru out. But that's beside the point. I will post something written by someone who claims to have had a profound awakening as a result of this practice. I would be curious to read what Anti Cult, Corboy, and/or the other learned members of the board would have to say about what is written below about "Awareness". As for me, whenever I see an ordinary word like "awareness" capitalized, it is off-putting and raises a red flag.
*Not the same Dan Brown who wrote The Da Vinci Code
---
I've only recently started to practice with Dan Brown who teaches a form of Tibetan meditation called Mahamudra. It is the most powerful meditation I've ever come across thus far and I'm convinced if anything is going to bring an awakening, it's this. Dan claims that he's had many students wake up as a result of this practice and the comments below reflect a posting of one such student who had a profound awakening during the retreat I attended this past Spring. I share it with you because I find it to be as good an explanation of enlightenment as any, particularly coming from an "ordinary" person.
What I think is most salient about what is being described is that there is no self that is having the experience of awakening or enlightenment. Enlightenment doesn't happen to a separate sense of self. Enlightenment is the dissolution of the identification with self while the object of self remains as but one of many objects that arise in awareness. It's so simple, yet so utterly incomprehensible, particularly for the identified self to wrap it's mind around. Fascinating, no?
(following are the words of the student he's referring to)
Awareness is Everything. Whatever you experience, whether perceptions, feelings or thoughts, you are always aware of that experience by definition. Awareness is always present in every experience. Awareness and the experience are not two separate things. The experience is Awareness manifesting as that experience. The experience is the Awareness of it. We are nothing but the unfolding events of experience as Awareness unfolding. We are everything in that everything is Awareness being everything.
Appearing to be a separate self is Awareness being that experience of separate self-hood. There is no separate Awareness that is viewing the experience as the experience is itself Awareness. You cannot separate the waves from the ocean. Experiences are waves of Awareness and one cannot separate the Awareness from the event as the event is itself Awareness “event-ing”.
In whatever we say, do or think, all of these experiences are just Awareness manifesting as those thoughts, words or actions without any separation between the Awareness of and the expression or action. In such a dimension how can we not be free in each diverse moment? There is no personal Awareness as my Awareness or your Awareness. Who is there to be liberated? There is however, the experience of the thoughts “my Awareness” and “your Awareness”… but these are also experiences of a non-personal and universal Awareness appearing as those thoughts of “mine” and “yours”. In this way the entire ocean is present in the smallest wave.
Just noticing and being aware as our practice, is Awareness arising as that practice. In such a practice Awareness has nothing to gain. In our not practicing being aware, Awareness has not been diminished. All experiences are equally Awareness appearing as those experiences. Awareness is not more present in some experiences and less in others. No matter the size and shape of the wave, all waves are still equally the ocean.
*Not the same Dan Brown who wrote The Da Vinci Code
---
I've only recently started to practice with Dan Brown who teaches a form of Tibetan meditation called Mahamudra. It is the most powerful meditation I've ever come across thus far and I'm convinced if anything is going to bring an awakening, it's this. Dan claims that he's had many students wake up as a result of this practice and the comments below reflect a posting of one such student who had a profound awakening during the retreat I attended this past Spring. I share it with you because I find it to be as good an explanation of enlightenment as any, particularly coming from an "ordinary" person.
What I think is most salient about what is being described is that there is no self that is having the experience of awakening or enlightenment. Enlightenment doesn't happen to a separate sense of self. Enlightenment is the dissolution of the identification with self while the object of self remains as but one of many objects that arise in awareness. It's so simple, yet so utterly incomprehensible, particularly for the identified self to wrap it's mind around. Fascinating, no?
(following are the words of the student he's referring to)
Awareness is Everything. Whatever you experience, whether perceptions, feelings or thoughts, you are always aware of that experience by definition. Awareness is always present in every experience. Awareness and the experience are not two separate things. The experience is Awareness manifesting as that experience. The experience is the Awareness of it. We are nothing but the unfolding events of experience as Awareness unfolding. We are everything in that everything is Awareness being everything.
Appearing to be a separate self is Awareness being that experience of separate self-hood. There is no separate Awareness that is viewing the experience as the experience is itself Awareness. You cannot separate the waves from the ocean. Experiences are waves of Awareness and one cannot separate the Awareness from the event as the event is itself Awareness “event-ing”.
In whatever we say, do or think, all of these experiences are just Awareness manifesting as those thoughts, words or actions without any separation between the Awareness of and the expression or action. In such a dimension how can we not be free in each diverse moment? There is no personal Awareness as my Awareness or your Awareness. Who is there to be liberated? There is however, the experience of the thoughts “my Awareness” and “your Awareness”… but these are also experiences of a non-personal and universal Awareness appearing as those thoughts of “mine” and “yours”. In this way the entire ocean is present in the smallest wave.
Just noticing and being aware as our practice, is Awareness arising as that practice. In such a practice Awareness has nothing to gain. In our not practicing being aware, Awareness has not been diminished. All experiences are equally Awareness appearing as those experiences. Awareness is not more present in some experiences and less in others. No matter the size and shape of the wave, all waves are still equally the ocean.
Mahamudra Meditation, Awareness = Enlightenment For Sale
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: July 29, 2008 09:12AM
Well, I will just give my common sense impression.
First off, its a salespitch.
He is saying that Dan Brown's Mahamudra is going to make you Aware...so come to his retreat-seminar, which one assumes costs money, and is Dan Brown's source of income. (it probably is a type of LGAT seminar too).
So the first part sounds like an internet advertisement.
Also saying "Dan claims" it works, is meaningless.
Where is the facts and data?
If he really had a method that brings Enlightenment, he has to define what that is, and then find a way to measure it. There are psychological scales one could use perhaps.
So there is no proof, just Dan Says.
Then he goes into the standard words words words, which really have no meaning. I read tons of these books years ago, about No Self, but it does seem to be a dead end street.
This sounds like like are trying to get into the Eckhart Tolle marketplace.
What they are SELLING, is the idea of "bliss" consciousness. Or if not bliss, then "nothingness".
Both of those are an absense of suffering-pain.
So they are selling the same IDEA as everyone else.
Pleasure vs Pain.
escaping suffering.
(that is what they are all selling, that idea).
The irony is that science is showing that the Bliss state does NOT last. Ever.
It creates more misery, like a druggie wanting get that first high again.
I think the so-called search for Enlightenment, actually creates misery.
In REBT, they have USA (Unconditonal Self Acceptance), and ULA (Unconditional Life Acceptance).
There is data to say that just ACCEPTING life, self, people as they are, does stop misery.
And Happiness is being studied scientifically now, and the way to be Unhappy, is navel gazing! The happiest people are often the ones out there doing things that have MEANING for them.
So this New Age Enlightenment stuff, I bet if they measured it, it makes people more miserable.
Dan Brown could have the results measure by scientific testing, but one doubts he has.
It would be cool to set up studies to measure the results of these Retreats, probably the same as Landmark..initial manic-high, then crash into depression, then back to the retreat.
It doesn't add up psychologically, philosophically, or even in common sense.
Just more Enlightment For Sale.
First off, its a salespitch.
He is saying that Dan Brown's Mahamudra is going to make you Aware...so come to his retreat-seminar, which one assumes costs money, and is Dan Brown's source of income. (it probably is a type of LGAT seminar too).
So the first part sounds like an internet advertisement.
Also saying "Dan claims" it works, is meaningless.
Where is the facts and data?
If he really had a method that brings Enlightenment, he has to define what that is, and then find a way to measure it. There are psychological scales one could use perhaps.
So there is no proof, just Dan Says.
Then he goes into the standard words words words, which really have no meaning. I read tons of these books years ago, about No Self, but it does seem to be a dead end street.
This sounds like like are trying to get into the Eckhart Tolle marketplace.
What they are SELLING, is the idea of "bliss" consciousness. Or if not bliss, then "nothingness".
Both of those are an absense of suffering-pain.
So they are selling the same IDEA as everyone else.
Pleasure vs Pain.
escaping suffering.
(that is what they are all selling, that idea).
The irony is that science is showing that the Bliss state does NOT last. Ever.
It creates more misery, like a druggie wanting get that first high again.
I think the so-called search for Enlightenment, actually creates misery.
In REBT, they have USA (Unconditonal Self Acceptance), and ULA (Unconditional Life Acceptance).
There is data to say that just ACCEPTING life, self, people as they are, does stop misery.
And Happiness is being studied scientifically now, and the way to be Unhappy, is navel gazing! The happiest people are often the ones out there doing things that have MEANING for them.
So this New Age Enlightenment stuff, I bet if they measured it, it makes people more miserable.
Dan Brown could have the results measure by scientific testing, but one doubts he has.
It would be cool to set up studies to measure the results of these Retreats, probably the same as Landmark..initial manic-high, then crash into depression, then back to the retreat.
It doesn't add up psychologically, philosophically, or even in common sense.
Just more Enlightment For Sale.
Re: Mahamudra Meditation, Awareness and Enlightenment
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: July 29, 2008 11:47PM
To market 'enlightenment' is to foster delusion. For that kind of message makes it seem enlightenment is something that actually has a separate inherant existence and can be grasped at and attained.
Enlightenment means understanding that there's nothing inherantly separated. That's what is taught in Buddhism. The mechanics of marketing and 'this-workshop-will-give-you-enlightenment' sets up mental turmoil and a notion of enlightenment as marketable commodity that undercuts actual Dharma teaching.
The best teachers understand they not only have to teach material but bring it across in a way that will not trigger misunderstanding, craving or greed (afflictive emotion) in their students. And one of the Buddhist precepts forbids us to 'darken mind and body of self and other with intoxicants.'
This is more than avoiding drugs. To me, the craving induced by marketing and by commodifying 'enlightenment' is peddling an intoxicant. So is any exploitation of personal charisma or covert use of trance and sleep deprivation.
Alexander Berzin is a practitioner and scholar of Tibetan Buddhism and has worked as a translator for HH Dalai Lama. He wrote a book to assist persons preparing to take another advanced initiation, the Kalachakra and has a website, the Berzin archives, that are an invaluable starting people.
In his book Healthy Relationships between Teachers and Students, Alexander Berzin has warned that one pitfall has been that too many Western students were encouraged to think themselves ready to embark on tantra and guru-yoga in Tibetan buddhism. That's like trying to do a Ph.D before one has completed high school.
Berzin has detailed information on advanced meditation practices-including Mahamudra. You will see from Berzin's material that genuine Mahamudra practice cannot be offered via American style mass marketing.
[www.berzinarchives.com]
In the Buddhst Framework Berzin tells us there is no unique method of Mahamudra--though all schools derive from a common, Indian, source
The teacher should convey that he or she is part of a great and traceable chain of transmission, not be operating as lone ranger. The great insight of Buddhism is that of interconnecteness--not that one is a powerful loner.
[www.berzinarchives.com]
(Berzin)The Kagyu, Sakya and Gelug traditions of Tibet each transmit lineages of mahamudra presented in its own distinctive manner of explanation and with its own individual style of meditation. All derive from common sources in India transmitted to Tibet during the early eleventh century.
What Berzin discusses here in detail are the preconditions before we are even ready to do advanced practices suchas Mahamudra and finding a teacher.
The Four True Facts in Life (the Buddhist noble truths)
Taking Ourselves and Our Lives Seriously
Safe Direction and Buddha-Nature (taking refuge in Buddhas teaching, the nature of Reality and the community of practitioners (This does not mean taking refuge in the personality or charisma of a teacher. Thats an intoxicant)
Behavioral Cause and Effect (You cant get away with anything because whatever you do has an effect)
Renunciation (of character defects and lifestyle features that hamper our practice)
Eliminating Confusion
Compassion and a Dedicated Heart of Bodhichitta (vowing to forgo liberation until all beings are free)
and- preliminary practices for Mahamudra
[www.berzinarchives.com]
This practice requires a close relationship with a qualified teacher. Both student and teacher have to be mature. In a way, one perhaps may be said to be incoporating the teacher as a positive introject, but only those features of the teacher that are of buddha.
So hazards abound unless both parties are highly discerning and not greedy for power and not deluded in any way.
Mass marketing is based on methods designed to foster and then exploit greed and illlusion, and in some cases hatred (disliking oneself, wishing to be different and more powerful is a form of hatred).
A vehicle of marketing that fosters the afflictive emotions of greed hate and delusion would be incompatible with presentation of an advanced Buddhist practice suitable only when one has gained insight into greed hate and illusion and wishes to free others from greed, hate and illusion.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2008 11:59PM by corboy.
Enlightenment means understanding that there's nothing inherantly separated. That's what is taught in Buddhism. The mechanics of marketing and 'this-workshop-will-give-you-enlightenment' sets up mental turmoil and a notion of enlightenment as marketable commodity that undercuts actual Dharma teaching.
The best teachers understand they not only have to teach material but bring it across in a way that will not trigger misunderstanding, craving or greed (afflictive emotion) in their students. And one of the Buddhist precepts forbids us to 'darken mind and body of self and other with intoxicants.'
This is more than avoiding drugs. To me, the craving induced by marketing and by commodifying 'enlightenment' is peddling an intoxicant. So is any exploitation of personal charisma or covert use of trance and sleep deprivation.
Alexander Berzin is a practitioner and scholar of Tibetan Buddhism and has worked as a translator for HH Dalai Lama. He wrote a book to assist persons preparing to take another advanced initiation, the Kalachakra and has a website, the Berzin archives, that are an invaluable starting people.
In his book Healthy Relationships between Teachers and Students, Alexander Berzin has warned that one pitfall has been that too many Western students were encouraged to think themselves ready to embark on tantra and guru-yoga in Tibetan buddhism. That's like trying to do a Ph.D before one has completed high school.
Berzin has detailed information on advanced meditation practices-including Mahamudra. You will see from Berzin's material that genuine Mahamudra practice cannot be offered via American style mass marketing.
[www.berzinarchives.com]
In the Buddhst Framework Berzin tells us there is no unique method of Mahamudra--though all schools derive from a common, Indian, source
The teacher should convey that he or she is part of a great and traceable chain of transmission, not be operating as lone ranger. The great insight of Buddhism is that of interconnecteness--not that one is a powerful loner.
[www.berzinarchives.com]
(Berzin)The Kagyu, Sakya and Gelug traditions of Tibet each transmit lineages of mahamudra presented in its own distinctive manner of explanation and with its own individual style of meditation. All derive from common sources in India transmitted to Tibet during the early eleventh century.
What Berzin discusses here in detail are the preconditions before we are even ready to do advanced practices suchas Mahamudra and finding a teacher.
The Four True Facts in Life (the Buddhist noble truths)
Taking Ourselves and Our Lives Seriously
Safe Direction and Buddha-Nature (taking refuge in Buddhas teaching, the nature of Reality and the community of practitioners (This does not mean taking refuge in the personality or charisma of a teacher. Thats an intoxicant)
Behavioral Cause and Effect (You cant get away with anything because whatever you do has an effect)
Renunciation (of character defects and lifestyle features that hamper our practice)
Eliminating Confusion
Compassion and a Dedicated Heart of Bodhichitta (vowing to forgo liberation until all beings are free)
and- preliminary practices for Mahamudra
[www.berzinarchives.com]
This practice requires a close relationship with a qualified teacher. Both student and teacher have to be mature. In a way, one perhaps may be said to be incoporating the teacher as a positive introject, but only those features of the teacher that are of buddha.
So hazards abound unless both parties are highly discerning and not greedy for power and not deluded in any way.
Mass marketing is based on methods designed to foster and then exploit greed and illlusion, and in some cases hatred (disliking oneself, wishing to be different and more powerful is a form of hatred).
A vehicle of marketing that fosters the afflictive emotions of greed hate and delusion would be incompatible with presentation of an advanced Buddhist practice suitable only when one has gained insight into greed hate and illusion and wishes to free others from greed, hate and illusion.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2008 11:59PM by corboy.
Re: Mahamudra Meditation, Awareness and Enlightenment
Posted by:
Guruphobiac
()
Date: July 30, 2008 12:08AM
Thanks, Anti-Cult and Corboy.
Re: Mahamudra Meditation, Awareness and Enlightenment
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: July 30, 2008 02:51AM
also, since Dan Brown is a PhD, he would know he has to provide objective evidence for his claims.
He can't just say, my meditation stuff is the best as all my followers say it is.
There was a guy back in school who sold weed by the same method.
It also appears he is friends with Ken Wilber??
But regardless, these guys have to set up a way to have 3rd parties measure and study their claims.
For example, there were some studies with legit Buddhist monks who meditate 12 hrs a day in Tibet. Those guys certainly are more able to stay calm under stressful conditions.
So unless Dan Brown is measuring his results in some way, then he is just doing what everyone else is doing.
Also, TM did lots of "studies" to "prove" TM works. Problem is most of the studies were faked, or done by TM people, and were a bad joke.
All Dan Brown would have to do is get a study done by independent people, put some people through his method, some through Mindfulness Training, some put on a waiting list as a control, etc.
And then look at the results.
But they never do it.
They just say, Enlightenment can't be measured, but mine is the best, so come to my seminar.
Well, if it can't be measured, how do we know his is the best?
Testimonials?
Then that means the Guru with the most fanatical and largest numbers of followers is the best.
He can't just say, my meditation stuff is the best as all my followers say it is.
There was a guy back in school who sold weed by the same method.
It also appears he is friends with Ken Wilber??
But regardless, these guys have to set up a way to have 3rd parties measure and study their claims.
For example, there were some studies with legit Buddhist monks who meditate 12 hrs a day in Tibet. Those guys certainly are more able to stay calm under stressful conditions.
So unless Dan Brown is measuring his results in some way, then he is just doing what everyone else is doing.
Also, TM did lots of "studies" to "prove" TM works. Problem is most of the studies were faked, or done by TM people, and were a bad joke.
All Dan Brown would have to do is get a study done by independent people, put some people through his method, some through Mindfulness Training, some put on a waiting list as a control, etc.
And then look at the results.
But they never do it.
They just say, Enlightenment can't be measured, but mine is the best, so come to my seminar.
Well, if it can't be measured, how do we know his is the best?
Testimonials?
Then that means the Guru with the most fanatical and largest numbers of followers is the best.
Re: Mahamudra Meditation, Awareness and Enlightenment
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: July 30, 2008 03:11AM
A Wee List of Wilber Critiques
[www.geoffreyfalk.com]
(In all his studies of gurus and spirituality, KW has never, but ever made any use of Zimbardo's Prison Experiment. Yet, Zimbardo was a participant in a seminar convened in the 1980s by Wilber, Eckler and Dick Anthony, whose findings were published in the book, Spiritual Choices.
Yet despite being listed as a participant, Professor Zimbardo was never at any time quoted in the book and no reference was made to his research--a very strange omission. Wilber's lifelong bias, perhaps obsession has been to focus on levels of development and upon special people, gurus, who seem to demonstrate such develpment is possible and that is possible to become impervious to temptation.
So Wilber seems unwilling to face the implications of Zimbardo's research project for the Prison Experiment demonstrated that no one is so special that he or she becomes impervious to temptation.
And in practice, Wilber has associated with some troubled teachers--Adi Da, Andrew Cohen and Marc Gafni. It should also be noted that Wilber has never at any time been licenced to practice medicine or psychotherapy, and never acquired a Ph.D. He's been quite unwelcoming of peer review and seems most confortable associating with people who admire him.
He's endorsed what sounds like abuse, even seeming to celebrate it.
[www.globalserve.net]
When under stress, he wrote this.
[www.kenwilber.com]
Later, he claimed this was a test and that highly evolved people would see it was only a joke, and anyone not evolved enough would find it offensive.
People who had not internalized Wilber as their Higher Power didnt buy it.
Jim Chamberlin mentioned a common guru gambit called the Three Cards Trick
[www.integralworld.net]
(quote)
The Higher Level Card (i.e. Sorry, it's just over your head). You're just not smart enough to realize I am smarter than you, because you're on a lower (less divine) level.
The Projection Card (i.e., I know you are, but what am I). By criticizing me, you are really just criticizing yourself, because any problem you see in me is just a projection of a problem in yourself.The underlying essence of the previously mentioned 3-cards, played often by cultic leaders and apologists of the eastern religious/western psychological milieu, is this: any negative response to the leader or inner circle of the group can only be ones own fault (i.e. blame the victim). You're either not smart enough to understand (at a lower level), lack sufficient self-awareness (are simply projecting), or have failed a very deep test (when the group/leader hurts you, this is actually helping you).
(3) The Skillful Means Card (i.e., it was only a test, dickhead). The most potent card of all! It's not abuse; it's not pathetic or ridiculous or wrong; it's a crazy-wise teaching. You know, like Zen stuff. So when I call you a dickhead, it's not because I'm a dickhead, it's because you have a dickhead-complex that you need to evolve past, and I'm here to help you see that.
The underlying essence of the previously mentioned 3-cards, played often by cultic leaders and apologists of the eastern religious/western psychological milieu, is this: any negative response to the leader or inner circle of the group can only be ones own fault (i.e. blame the victim). You're either not smart enough to understand (at a lower level), lack sufficient self-awareness (are simply projecting), or have failed a very deep test (when the group/leader hurts you, this is actually helping you).
Consider the following in regards to Ken's latest Blog, and notice how he's now playing a few new cards, equally cultic:
[www.kenwilber.com]
(1) The Ultimate Guru Trump Card (Witness me, and see the truth): The evidence Helen offers in support of Ken's actions is not at all relevant to the issues at hand, but is, instead, this: "(I've) SEEN YOU, SAT IN YOUR AURA, and HEARD YOUR VOICE". Helen offers nothing of substance in regards to the actual issues being discussed. This is nothing more than GURU talk by a devotee and should be seen as a huge red flag to folks at II. This card is a real 'trump card' favorite among cultic apologists (i.e. if you felt his spiritual energy, man, you'd know it's true).
(2) The Hook, Then Heal Card (Listen, and be healed): Ken calls his previous Blogs "Hooks", which is just another name for the skillful means card. The "hook, then heal" combination deal, however, is necessary once the GURU trump card has been played. That is, once wisdom is established, it's time for compassion, forgiveness, and healing. This particular card implies two things at once: (a) Ken is the teacher (wisdom), you are the student; and (b) there is something wrong with you that can be healed by the teacher (compassion).
Consider how this has all come about. Ken, after taunting someone into a fight, with derogatory comments and snide remarks (HOOK), tries to then HEAL their angry nature by asking that they look at their own shadows (if they have the COURAGE to do so). The implicit point of this move is the following: if you listen, now that you've been HOOKED, and follow my instructions, you just may realize what is wrong with you, and be HEALED, never to get HOOKED again. In other words, when Ken hooked you, he did so only because you don't really know your true Self (IAMness). By listening to Ken, however, you might truly "RE-OWN" yourself, "RE-INTEGRATE" yourself, because he does care, he does FORGIVE YOU, and he is filled with compassion for you (notice he mentions he did this out of much love for Frank and Don) and will not teach you through his Blog and classes at IU (so sign up now!).
b]The Game Over, I Won Card[/b] (everybody stop, I'm the game-master): In the end, Ken is trying to silence critics/outsiders by asking that they simply STOP, which is all he really wants at this point. He asks that they take a moratorium on judging others, on loathing and condemning him. Notice that none of this addresses anything of any real substance; it's just an attempt to bring it to an end, with him still on top as the teacher. He is the game-master, after all. In real academic and/or spiritual circles (or within an adult community) such cards are considered completely and totally out of bounds. They only work in guru and cultic environments. Ken, PLEASE, you are the one who needs to STOP.
Ken, bringing it all together now, concludes by combing his wisdom and compassion, with spiritual waxing about bathing in the infinite well of rehabilitation.
Folks, outlining how and why this is classic cultic behavior is too elementary to even go into. Just pick up any book on the subject, or go read about the true root of all this: Adi Da.
Is there anyone at II with the courage to tell him this?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem with the "three cards" is not that playing them violates all standards of rational discourse, though they do. Nor is the problem that someone might have their feelings hurt if someone plays "three cards" on them. (Someone might, but that's a non-issue.) The problem is as anonymous said in his/her comment to MD's blog:
Note that these cards are not designed in any way, shape or form to prompt a discussion or dialogue. What can one possibly say to any of these cards? Nothing… and that is exactly the point. They are designed to end all discussion...
Da and Daists play these cards.
Cohen and his loyalists play these cards.
And now Wilber and some of his loyalists are playing them.
Is the pattern here not painfully obvious? Da, Cohen, Wilber.
Someone once said:
a positive group: Is NOT out to save the world. It has often been pointed out that a very high percentage of those in problematic groups initially entered with apparently very altruistic and idealistic impulses, a desire to help people and better the world. But that idealisim usually has a structure very similar to that of the "perfect master" -- archaic and narcissistic. The underlying impulse is "me and the group are going to change the world"...
Further, its narcissistic core is evidenced in the arrogance of the stance itself: we have the only (or the best) way, and we will change the world, that is, we will impose our ideas on the poor ignorant folks out there. Now they may not state it that way (I put it rather harshly); but they must in fact feel that way, more or less - how can you possibly presume to help someone, especially without being asked, unless you assume they are in need of help (i.e., inferior) and you are capable of providing it?
Consider the following in regards to Ken's latest Blog, and notice how he's now playing a few new cards, equally cultic:
[www.kenwilber.com]
(1) The Ultimate Guru Trump Card (Witness me, and see the truth): The evidence Helen offers in support of Ken's actions is not at all relevant to the issues at hand, but is, instead, this: "(I've) SEEN YOU, SAT IN YOUR AURA, and HEARD YOUR VOICE". Helen offers nothing of substance in regards to the actual issues being discussed. This is nothing more than GURU talk by a devotee and should be seen as a huge red flag to folks at II. This card is a real 'trump card' favorite among cultic apologists (i.e. if you felt his spiritual energy, man, you'd know it's true).
(2) The Hook, Then Heal Card (Listen, and be healed): Ken calls his previous Blogs "Hooks", which is just another name for the skillful means card. The "hook, then heal" combination deal, however, is necessary once the GURU trump card has been played. That is, once wisdom is established, it's time for compassion, forgiveness, and healing. This particular card implies two things at once: (a) Ken is the teacher (wisdom), you are the student; and (b) there is something wrong with you that can be healed by the teacher (compassion).
Consider how this has all come about. Ken, after taunting someone into a fight, with derogatory comments and snide remarks (HOOK), tries to then HEAL their angry nature by asking that they look at their own shadows (if they have the COURAGE to do so).
The implicit point of this move is the following: if you listen, now that you've been HOOKED, and follow my instructions, you just may realize what is wrong with you, and be HEALED, never to get HOOKED again.
In other words, when Ken hooked you, he did so only because you don't really know your true Self (IAMness).
By listening to Ken, however, you might truly "RE-OWN" yourself, "RE-INTEGRATE" yourself, because he does care, he does FORGIVE YOU, and he is filled with compassion for you (notice he mentions he did this out of much love for Frank and Don) and will not teach you through his Blog and classes at IU (so sign up now!).
Ken, bringing it all together now, concludes by combing his wisdom and compassion, with spiritual waxing about bathing in the infinite well of rehabilitation.
Folks, outlining how and why this is classic cultic behavior is too elementary to even go into. Just pick up any book on the subject, or go read about the true root of all this: Adi Da.
(3) The Game Over, I Won Card (everybody stop, I'm the game-master): In the end, Ken is trying to silence critics/outsiders by asking that they simply STOP, which is all he really wants at this point. He asks that they take a moratorium on judging others, on loathing and condemning him. Notice that none of this addresses anything of any real substance; it's just an attempt to bring it to an end, with him still on top as the teacher. He is the game-master, after all.
In real academic and/or spiritual circles (or within an adult community) such cards are considered completely and totally out of bounds. They only work in guru and cultic environments. Ken, PLEASE, you are the one who needs to STOP.
Is there anyone at II with the courage to tell him this? (end of quoted material)
(Note: II stands for Integral Institute, Wilber's think tank)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem with the "three cards" is not that playing them violates all standards of rational discourse, though they do. Nor is the problem that someone might have their feelings hurt if someone plays "three cards" on them. (Someone might, but that's a non-issue.) The problem is as anonymous said in his/her comment to MD's blog:
Note that these cards are not designed in any way, shape or form to prompt a discussion or dialogue. What can one possibly say to any of these cards? Nothing… and that is exactly the point. They are designed to end all discussion...
Da and Daists play these cards.
Cohen and his loyalists play these cards.
And now Wilber and some of his loyalists are playing them.
Is the pattern here not painfully obvious? Da, Cohen, Wilber.
Someone once said:
a positive group: Is NOT out to save the world. It has often been pointed out that a very high percentage of those in problematic groups initially entered with apparently very altruistic and idealistic impulses, a desire to help people and better the world. But that idealisim usually has a structure very similar to that of the "perfect master" -- archaic and narcissistic.
The underlying impulse is "me and the group are going to change the world"...
Further, its narcissistic core is evidenced in the arrogance of the stance itself: we have the only (or the best) way, and we will change the world, that is, we will impose our ideas on the poor ignorant folks out there. Now they may not state it that way (I put it rather harshly); but they must in fact feel that way, more or less - how can you possibly presume to help someone, especially without being asked, unless you assume they are in need of help (i.e., inferior) and you are capable of providing it? (end of quoted material)
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2008 03:36AM by corboy.
[www.geoffreyfalk.com]
(In all his studies of gurus and spirituality, KW has never, but ever made any use of Zimbardo's Prison Experiment. Yet, Zimbardo was a participant in a seminar convened in the 1980s by Wilber, Eckler and Dick Anthony, whose findings were published in the book, Spiritual Choices.
Yet despite being listed as a participant, Professor Zimbardo was never at any time quoted in the book and no reference was made to his research--a very strange omission. Wilber's lifelong bias, perhaps obsession has been to focus on levels of development and upon special people, gurus, who seem to demonstrate such develpment is possible and that is possible to become impervious to temptation.
So Wilber seems unwilling to face the implications of Zimbardo's research project for the Prison Experiment demonstrated that no one is so special that he or she becomes impervious to temptation.
And in practice, Wilber has associated with some troubled teachers--Adi Da, Andrew Cohen and Marc Gafni. It should also be noted that Wilber has never at any time been licenced to practice medicine or psychotherapy, and never acquired a Ph.D. He's been quite unwelcoming of peer review and seems most confortable associating with people who admire him.
He's endorsed what sounds like abuse, even seeming to celebrate it.
[www.globalserve.net]
When under stress, he wrote this.
[www.kenwilber.com]
Later, he claimed this was a test and that highly evolved people would see it was only a joke, and anyone not evolved enough would find it offensive.
People who had not internalized Wilber as their Higher Power didnt buy it.
Jim Chamberlin mentioned a common guru gambit called the Three Cards Trick
[www.integralworld.net]
(quote)
The Higher Level Card (i.e. Sorry, it's just over your head). You're just not smart enough to realize I am smarter than you, because you're on a lower (less divine) level.
The Projection Card (i.e., I know you are, but what am I). By criticizing me, you are really just criticizing yourself, because any problem you see in me is just a projection of a problem in yourself.The underlying essence of the previously mentioned 3-cards, played often by cultic leaders and apologists of the eastern religious/western psychological milieu, is this: any negative response to the leader or inner circle of the group can only be ones own fault (i.e. blame the victim). You're either not smart enough to understand (at a lower level), lack sufficient self-awareness (are simply projecting), or have failed a very deep test (when the group/leader hurts you, this is actually helping you).
(3) The Skillful Means Card (i.e., it was only a test, dickhead). The most potent card of all! It's not abuse; it's not pathetic or ridiculous or wrong; it's a crazy-wise teaching. You know, like Zen stuff. So when I call you a dickhead, it's not because I'm a dickhead, it's because you have a dickhead-complex that you need to evolve past, and I'm here to help you see that.
The underlying essence of the previously mentioned 3-cards, played often by cultic leaders and apologists of the eastern religious/western psychological milieu, is this: any negative response to the leader or inner circle of the group can only be ones own fault (i.e. blame the victim). You're either not smart enough to understand (at a lower level), lack sufficient self-awareness (are simply projecting), or have failed a very deep test (when the group/leader hurts you, this is actually helping you).
Consider the following in regards to Ken's latest Blog, and notice how he's now playing a few new cards, equally cultic:
[www.kenwilber.com]
(1) The Ultimate Guru Trump Card (Witness me, and see the truth): The evidence Helen offers in support of Ken's actions is not at all relevant to the issues at hand, but is, instead, this: "(I've) SEEN YOU, SAT IN YOUR AURA, and HEARD YOUR VOICE". Helen offers nothing of substance in regards to the actual issues being discussed. This is nothing more than GURU talk by a devotee and should be seen as a huge red flag to folks at II. This card is a real 'trump card' favorite among cultic apologists (i.e. if you felt his spiritual energy, man, you'd know it's true).
(2) The Hook, Then Heal Card (Listen, and be healed): Ken calls his previous Blogs "Hooks", which is just another name for the skillful means card. The "hook, then heal" combination deal, however, is necessary once the GURU trump card has been played. That is, once wisdom is established, it's time for compassion, forgiveness, and healing. This particular card implies two things at once: (a) Ken is the teacher (wisdom), you are the student; and (b) there is something wrong with you that can be healed by the teacher (compassion).
Consider how this has all come about. Ken, after taunting someone into a fight, with derogatory comments and snide remarks (HOOK), tries to then HEAL their angry nature by asking that they look at their own shadows (if they have the COURAGE to do so). The implicit point of this move is the following: if you listen, now that you've been HOOKED, and follow my instructions, you just may realize what is wrong with you, and be HEALED, never to get HOOKED again. In other words, when Ken hooked you, he did so only because you don't really know your true Self (IAMness). By listening to Ken, however, you might truly "RE-OWN" yourself, "RE-INTEGRATE" yourself, because he does care, he does FORGIVE YOU, and he is filled with compassion for you (notice he mentions he did this out of much love for Frank and Don) and will not teach you through his Blog and classes at IU (so sign up now!).
b]The Game Over, I Won Card[/b] (everybody stop, I'm the game-master): In the end, Ken is trying to silence critics/outsiders by asking that they simply STOP, which is all he really wants at this point. He asks that they take a moratorium on judging others, on loathing and condemning him. Notice that none of this addresses anything of any real substance; it's just an attempt to bring it to an end, with him still on top as the teacher. He is the game-master, after all. In real academic and/or spiritual circles (or within an adult community) such cards are considered completely and totally out of bounds. They only work in guru and cultic environments. Ken, PLEASE, you are the one who needs to STOP.
Ken, bringing it all together now, concludes by combing his wisdom and compassion, with spiritual waxing about bathing in the infinite well of rehabilitation.
Folks, outlining how and why this is classic cultic behavior is too elementary to even go into. Just pick up any book on the subject, or go read about the true root of all this: Adi Da.
Is there anyone at II with the courage to tell him this?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem with the "three cards" is not that playing them violates all standards of rational discourse, though they do. Nor is the problem that someone might have their feelings hurt if someone plays "three cards" on them. (Someone might, but that's a non-issue.) The problem is as anonymous said in his/her comment to MD's blog:
Note that these cards are not designed in any way, shape or form to prompt a discussion or dialogue. What can one possibly say to any of these cards? Nothing… and that is exactly the point. They are designed to end all discussion...
Da and Daists play these cards.
Cohen and his loyalists play these cards.
And now Wilber and some of his loyalists are playing them.
Is the pattern here not painfully obvious? Da, Cohen, Wilber.
Someone once said:
a positive group: Is NOT out to save the world. It has often been pointed out that a very high percentage of those in problematic groups initially entered with apparently very altruistic and idealistic impulses, a desire to help people and better the world. But that idealisim usually has a structure very similar to that of the "perfect master" -- archaic and narcissistic. The underlying impulse is "me and the group are going to change the world"...
Further, its narcissistic core is evidenced in the arrogance of the stance itself: we have the only (or the best) way, and we will change the world, that is, we will impose our ideas on the poor ignorant folks out there. Now they may not state it that way (I put it rather harshly); but they must in fact feel that way, more or less - how can you possibly presume to help someone, especially without being asked, unless you assume they are in need of help (i.e., inferior) and you are capable of providing it?
Consider the following in regards to Ken's latest Blog, and notice how he's now playing a few new cards, equally cultic:
[www.kenwilber.com]
(1) The Ultimate Guru Trump Card (Witness me, and see the truth): The evidence Helen offers in support of Ken's actions is not at all relevant to the issues at hand, but is, instead, this: "(I've) SEEN YOU, SAT IN YOUR AURA, and HEARD YOUR VOICE". Helen offers nothing of substance in regards to the actual issues being discussed. This is nothing more than GURU talk by a devotee and should be seen as a huge red flag to folks at II. This card is a real 'trump card' favorite among cultic apologists (i.e. if you felt his spiritual energy, man, you'd know it's true).
(2) The Hook, Then Heal Card (Listen, and be healed): Ken calls his previous Blogs "Hooks", which is just another name for the skillful means card. The "hook, then heal" combination deal, however, is necessary once the GURU trump card has been played. That is, once wisdom is established, it's time for compassion, forgiveness, and healing. This particular card implies two things at once: (a) Ken is the teacher (wisdom), you are the student; and (b) there is something wrong with you that can be healed by the teacher (compassion).
Consider how this has all come about. Ken, after taunting someone into a fight, with derogatory comments and snide remarks (HOOK), tries to then HEAL their angry nature by asking that they look at their own shadows (if they have the COURAGE to do so).
The implicit point of this move is the following: if you listen, now that you've been HOOKED, and follow my instructions, you just may realize what is wrong with you, and be HEALED, never to get HOOKED again.
In other words, when Ken hooked you, he did so only because you don't really know your true Self (IAMness).
By listening to Ken, however, you might truly "RE-OWN" yourself, "RE-INTEGRATE" yourself, because he does care, he does FORGIVE YOU, and he is filled with compassion for you (notice he mentions he did this out of much love for Frank and Don) and will not teach you through his Blog and classes at IU (so sign up now!).
Ken, bringing it all together now, concludes by combing his wisdom and compassion, with spiritual waxing about bathing in the infinite well of rehabilitation.
Folks, outlining how and why this is classic cultic behavior is too elementary to even go into. Just pick up any book on the subject, or go read about the true root of all this: Adi Da.
(3) The Game Over, I Won Card (everybody stop, I'm the game-master): In the end, Ken is trying to silence critics/outsiders by asking that they simply STOP, which is all he really wants at this point. He asks that they take a moratorium on judging others, on loathing and condemning him. Notice that none of this addresses anything of any real substance; it's just an attempt to bring it to an end, with him still on top as the teacher. He is the game-master, after all.
In real academic and/or spiritual circles (or within an adult community) such cards are considered completely and totally out of bounds. They only work in guru and cultic environments. Ken, PLEASE, you are the one who needs to STOP.
Is there anyone at II with the courage to tell him this? (end of quoted material)
(Note: II stands for Integral Institute, Wilber's think tank)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem with the "three cards" is not that playing them violates all standards of rational discourse, though they do. Nor is the problem that someone might have their feelings hurt if someone plays "three cards" on them. (Someone might, but that's a non-issue.) The problem is as anonymous said in his/her comment to MD's blog:
Note that these cards are not designed in any way, shape or form to prompt a discussion or dialogue. What can one possibly say to any of these cards? Nothing… and that is exactly the point. They are designed to end all discussion...
Da and Daists play these cards.
Cohen and his loyalists play these cards.
And now Wilber and some of his loyalists are playing them.
Is the pattern here not painfully obvious? Da, Cohen, Wilber.
Someone once said:
a positive group: Is NOT out to save the world. It has often been pointed out that a very high percentage of those in problematic groups initially entered with apparently very altruistic and idealistic impulses, a desire to help people and better the world. But that idealisim usually has a structure very similar to that of the "perfect master" -- archaic and narcissistic.
The underlying impulse is "me and the group are going to change the world"...
Further, its narcissistic core is evidenced in the arrogance of the stance itself: we have the only (or the best) way, and we will change the world, that is, we will impose our ideas on the poor ignorant folks out there. Now they may not state it that way (I put it rather harshly); but they must in fact feel that way, more or less - how can you possibly presume to help someone, especially without being asked, unless you assume they are in need of help (i.e., inferior) and you are capable of providing it? (end of quoted material)
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2008 03:36AM by corboy.
Re: Mahamudra Meditation, Awareness and Enlightenment
Posted by:
lyncwoogy
()
Date: November 07, 2011 02:11AM
I have some small experience of Mahamudra, not a great deal, but as far as I can see, the person that wrote that screed beginning with 'Awareness is everything' does not really understand it. I think in fact that this is spiritual waffle. At first it sounds like it has profound meaning, but it slides away from the mind like a fish. You can't really find any precision in there.
To me this sounds like basic samatha meditation disguised as something fantastic. Certainly, meditation can make experience much more vivid, even luminous. But that is one step in a process that includes the development of focus, analysis, reflexive awareness, and many other things. If the mind is not sharpened before it is expanded all you have is the rather dull awareness of a cow. As for enlightenment and the sense of self - that's a tricky one. What is said is true in a sense, but you have to develop a far sharper sense of self to be able to move towards Enlightenment. If someone tells you to try to immediately give up your sense of self, it is most likely because they don't want you to realise that your wallet belongs to you.
This is snake oil, enlightenment offered as a result of a weekend seminar. These promises are lies.
To me this sounds like basic samatha meditation disguised as something fantastic. Certainly, meditation can make experience much more vivid, even luminous. But that is one step in a process that includes the development of focus, analysis, reflexive awareness, and many other things. If the mind is not sharpened before it is expanded all you have is the rather dull awareness of a cow. As for enlightenment and the sense of self - that's a tricky one. What is said is true in a sense, but you have to develop a far sharper sense of self to be able to move towards Enlightenment. If someone tells you to try to immediately give up your sense of self, it is most likely because they don't want you to realise that your wallet belongs to you.
This is snake oil, enlightenment offered as a result of a weekend seminar. These promises are lies.
Re: Mahamudra Meditation, Awareness and Enlightenment
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: November 07, 2011 09:46PM
Eloquence and scholarship are naught when used to serve an evil cause.
Remembrance Day is a week away.
Here is a sample of rhetoric from a younger Winston Churchill to justify a bad faith stance towards Turkey during the Great War and the chain of decision making that led to up to the slaughter at Gallipoli.
[www.britishempire.co.uk]
It is ugly for young and idealistic persons to be treated as expendables, whether in service to a guru's lust or to the ambitions of statesmen.
Remembrance Day is a week away.
Here is a sample of rhetoric from a younger Winston Churchill to justify a bad faith stance towards Turkey during the Great War and the chain of decision making that led to up to the slaughter at Gallipoli.
[www.britishempire.co.uk]
It is ugly for young and idealistic persons to be treated as expendables, whether in service to a guru's lust or to the ambitions of statesmen.
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