Re: So-Called Ancient Hindu spirituality concealing American LGAT 'tech'
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: July 31, 2008 01:12AM
The enneagram, IMO is a device that facilitates cold reading--a way to ask questions, elicit information, give open ended answers that seem specific to an individuals life but are one-size-fits all.
And its transmitted in a context of giddy excitement quite different from the context in which I heard psychometrics taught at my university.
If the people into the enneagram had played it straight they would have had it tested and worked out the way the Minnesota Multiphasic Inventory was done, rather than propagating it within charisma driven encounter groups.
And its transmitted in a context of giddy excitement quite different from the context in which I heard psychometrics taught at my university.
If the people into the enneagram had played it straight they would have had it tested and worked out the way the Minnesota Multiphasic Inventory was done, rather than propagating it within charisma driven encounter groups.
Re: So-Called Ancient Hindu spirituality concealing American LGAT 'tec
Posted by:
Guruphobiac
()
Date: July 31, 2008 01:39AM
Wouldn't that be nine sizes fit all?
Can't say the context where I learned the enneagram was all that giddy, and that goes for several prominent teachers. Certainly a very different environment than the ashram I lived in, or the LGAT's I took. Of course, the enneagram probably is presented in some of those context.
Interestingly, the complaint of Patterson and others is very similar to what you mentioned in regard to Mahamudra meditation, or shaktipat: taken out of context and spread casually when the intent was for it to be transmitted only to serious and committed students.
What do you think about Myers-Briggs, which seems to have feet planted in both worlds?
Can't say the context where I learned the enneagram was all that giddy, and that goes for several prominent teachers. Certainly a very different environment than the ashram I lived in, or the LGAT's I took. Of course, the enneagram probably is presented in some of those context.
Interestingly, the complaint of Patterson and others is very similar to what you mentioned in regard to Mahamudra meditation, or shaktipat: taken out of context and spread casually when the intent was for it to be transmitted only to serious and committed students.
What do you think about Myers-Briggs, which seems to have feet planted in both worlds?
Re: So-Called Ancient Hindu spirituality concealing American LGAT 'tech'
Posted by:
solea13
()
Date: July 31, 2008 03:29AM
corboy wrote:
It may be that a common denominator for cultic milieu is not so much what people believe, but the mood and suspension of critical thinking and refusal to concern oneself with long term consequences. One can move within this milieu and take up a succession of belief systems that are actually incompatible, but that doenst matter. What matters is clinging to the mood--possibly a way to fend off depression or fend off insights one would find unbearable to face.).
And the cultic milieu has genuine appeal because it seems to offer hospitality and validation for experiences and also for intuitive talents that the mainstream culture cannot seem to deal with. But the problem is though a few in the cultic milieu actually may offer genuine assistance, the milieu is also a hide out and prowling ground for bandits.
Critical thinking is needed to protect oneself, yet its often frowned on in the cultic milieu. That is the seekers dilemma and one that is rarely thought through consciously at the start of one's quest..because seekers are rarely able to find a mentor who can tell them this and in a way that is both kind and convincing.
Groan.
Corboy, you have made quite a few posts on the theory of 'cultic milieu', which I understand you are learning about from various authors.
The concept is very interesting to me. It would appear that the 'cultic mileu' has been present in varying forms throughout history .. and that I have been part of its present day version for many years!
Maybe that is why so many people in cultic groups identify so much with the early Christians, who were so famously part of the cultic milieu of their time?
It is interesting to think that my own experiences are part of a 'learning curve' that many people in the West have gone through with the introduction of Buddhist, Hindu and other spiritual ideas combined with Western techniques of influence.
I hope that other people will learn from the past mistakes of myself and others in similar situations. Hopefully in the future as people learn more about this topic, society can integrate more fully and this 'cultic milieu' will diminish over time.
Then the talented and hard-working individuals who are currently trapped in cultic groups will be able to make a positive and practical contribution to the wider society instead.
That sounds much better to me than people trying to make themselves over into 'self-less', obedient robots for God's sake.
I'm beginning to think that anyone who is really enlightened would absolutely refuse to become a Guru!
It may be that a common denominator for cultic milieu is not so much what people believe, but the mood and suspension of critical thinking and refusal to concern oneself with long term consequences. One can move within this milieu and take up a succession of belief systems that are actually incompatible, but that doenst matter. What matters is clinging to the mood--possibly a way to fend off depression or fend off insights one would find unbearable to face.).
And the cultic milieu has genuine appeal because it seems to offer hospitality and validation for experiences and also for intuitive talents that the mainstream culture cannot seem to deal with. But the problem is though a few in the cultic milieu actually may offer genuine assistance, the milieu is also a hide out and prowling ground for bandits.
Critical thinking is needed to protect oneself, yet its often frowned on in the cultic milieu. That is the seekers dilemma and one that is rarely thought through consciously at the start of one's quest..because seekers are rarely able to find a mentor who can tell them this and in a way that is both kind and convincing.
Groan.
Corboy, you have made quite a few posts on the theory of 'cultic milieu', which I understand you are learning about from various authors.
The concept is very interesting to me. It would appear that the 'cultic mileu' has been present in varying forms throughout history .. and that I have been part of its present day version for many years!
Maybe that is why so many people in cultic groups identify so much with the early Christians, who were so famously part of the cultic milieu of their time?
It is interesting to think that my own experiences are part of a 'learning curve' that many people in the West have gone through with the introduction of Buddhist, Hindu and other spiritual ideas combined with Western techniques of influence.
I hope that other people will learn from the past mistakes of myself and others in similar situations. Hopefully in the future as people learn more about this topic, society can integrate more fully and this 'cultic milieu' will diminish over time.
Then the talented and hard-working individuals who are currently trapped in cultic groups will be able to make a positive and practical contribution to the wider society instead.
That sounds much better to me than people trying to make themselves over into 'self-less', obedient robots for God's sake.
I'm beginning to think that anyone who is really enlightened would absolutely refuse to become a Guru!
Re: So-Called Ancient Hindu spirituality concealing American LGAT 'tech'
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: July 31, 2008 03:36AM
Never mind my opinion about the Myers Briggs.
What is interesting is you call yourself guruphobic, yet you seem as emotionally invested in the e--gram and whoever taught it to you, as if these were your guru. You say you dont take it very seriously, merelyu found it useful, yet all I had to do was express my opinion that the ethingie was part of the cultic milieu and all at once its as though your ox was gored.
You also mention having in in some LGATs.
Rather than caring about what Corboy's opinions are, you might want to follow the spirit of this thread and examine the social context in which you heard about the enneagram and how the workshop or group was set up in which it was propagated.
Defending anything (guru or enneagram) as if it holds the mortgage to one's soul is the hazard.
The way we were taught the Minnesota Multiphasic, its methods of development, it was merely a test, with no mystique or mystery. And nothing was done to convey that it held the secret to the soul.
So...you dont have to answer this in public, but ponder in private...why get so attached to a gadget?
And whose best interests were served by encouraging people to think that a mere gadget was worthy of such passionate attachment?
Its not in the best interests of a student to become intoxicated with a preceptors idealogy or gadgetry.
But it serves the interests of the preceptor, thats for sure. It keeps people coming back and sells books. And workshops.
And one can play a double game.
Ask for scientific accountability, and one can say 'This is a tool for aiding spiritual growth'
Express doubts on the spiritual worth and one can say, 'But this is scientific. Psychologists use it.'
Point out that the thing was not submitted for academic review as was done by the developers of the MMPI and one can say, 'But this is spiritual'
...and play the game endlessly and sell more books, including to confused psychologists who didnt stay awake during their research design class. Or who forgot what they learned when bowled over by someone's charisma.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2008 03:52AM by corboy.
What is interesting is you call yourself guruphobic, yet you seem as emotionally invested in the e--gram and whoever taught it to you, as if these were your guru. You say you dont take it very seriously, merelyu found it useful, yet all I had to do was express my opinion that the ethingie was part of the cultic milieu and all at once its as though your ox was gored.
You also mention having in in some LGATs.
Rather than caring about what Corboy's opinions are, you might want to follow the spirit of this thread and examine the social context in which you heard about the enneagram and how the workshop or group was set up in which it was propagated.
Defending anything (guru or enneagram) as if it holds the mortgage to one's soul is the hazard.
The way we were taught the Minnesota Multiphasic, its methods of development, it was merely a test, with no mystique or mystery. And nothing was done to convey that it held the secret to the soul.
So...you dont have to answer this in public, but ponder in private...why get so attached to a gadget?
And whose best interests were served by encouraging people to think that a mere gadget was worthy of such passionate attachment?
Its not in the best interests of a student to become intoxicated with a preceptors idealogy or gadgetry.
But it serves the interests of the preceptor, thats for sure. It keeps people coming back and sells books. And workshops.
And one can play a double game.
Ask for scientific accountability, and one can say 'This is a tool for aiding spiritual growth'
Express doubts on the spiritual worth and one can say, 'But this is scientific. Psychologists use it.'
Point out that the thing was not submitted for academic review as was done by the developers of the MMPI and one can say, 'But this is spiritual'
...and play the game endlessly and sell more books, including to confused psychologists who didnt stay awake during their research design class. Or who forgot what they learned when bowled over by someone's charisma.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2008 03:52AM by corboy.
Re: So-Called Ancient Hindu spirituality concealing American LGAT 'tech'
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: July 31, 2008 04:11AM
I'll throw my 2 cents into this one too...
It seems human personality is so complex no one system can come anywhere near explaining it.
Which is a great LGAT business opportunity.
Remember the Scientology "Personality Test" when that was popular? (now they give a fake Stress Test).
I personally don't get any value out of the Enneagram personality typing, in and of itself its just a model, but it just seems arbitrary and untestable.
[www.skepdic.com]
Myers-Briggs personally I don't think has that much utility, even though many workplaces use it.
[www.skepdic.com]
(this link seems to deal with both issues)
[tap3x.net]
"The Enneagram and the MBTI ® is an electronic journal dedicated to providing a forum in which the relationship between the two personality systems can be explored in depth and in detail, and publicly debated."
It seems human personality is so complex no one system can come anywhere near explaining it.
Which is a great LGAT business opportunity.
Remember the Scientology "Personality Test" when that was popular? (now they give a fake Stress Test).
I personally don't get any value out of the Enneagram personality typing, in and of itself its just a model, but it just seems arbitrary and untestable.
[www.skepdic.com]
Myers-Briggs personally I don't think has that much utility, even though many workplaces use it.
[www.skepdic.com]
(this link seems to deal with both issues)
[tap3x.net]
"The Enneagram and the MBTI ® is an electronic journal dedicated to providing a forum in which the relationship between the two personality systems can be explored in depth and in detail, and publicly debated."
Re: So-Called Ancient Hindu spirituality concealing American LGAT 'tec
Posted by:
Guruphobiac
()
Date: July 31, 2008 05:03AM
Corboy,
All I am saying is that I find the Enneagram useful as a general framework for understanding human personality and the people in my life. I'm not willing to trash the entire thing because of its connections with various unsavory types. But I'm not attached, as you put it. Of course it's untested and very much imprecise. It's really not that big a deal. And I am about as critical of LGAT's and the whole concept of guruhood as anybody. I haven't been in an LGAT or anything in the least bit newage (rhymes with sewage) for 15 years or more.
A workshop with Helen Palmer or Don Riso is about as non-giddy and as energetically opposite something like Landmark or SYDA as you can imagine. Admittedly without the academic rigor and formality you may have found in your class where you learned the MMPI. They are both about the most pedantic, non-charismatic teachers you could imagine. And I never bought for two seconds that Palmer was a "psychic."
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2008 05:18AM by Guruphobiac.
All I am saying is that I find the Enneagram useful as a general framework for understanding human personality and the people in my life. I'm not willing to trash the entire thing because of its connections with various unsavory types. But I'm not attached, as you put it. Of course it's untested and very much imprecise. It's really not that big a deal. And I am about as critical of LGAT's and the whole concept of guruhood as anybody. I haven't been in an LGAT or anything in the least bit newage (rhymes with sewage) for 15 years or more.
A workshop with Helen Palmer or Don Riso is about as non-giddy and as energetically opposite something like Landmark or SYDA as you can imagine. Admittedly without the academic rigor and formality you may have found in your class where you learned the MMPI. They are both about the most pedantic, non-charismatic teachers you could imagine. And I never bought for two seconds that Palmer was a "psychic."
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2008 05:18AM by Guruphobiac.
Re: So-Called Ancient Hindu spirituality concealing American LGAT 'tech'
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: July 31, 2008 07:24AM
Okay, okay.
But for someone who is 'unattached' to the e-gadget, you've put a lot of one helluva lot of energy into posting about it.
But for someone who is 'unattached' to the e-gadget, you've put a lot of one helluva lot of energy into posting about it.
Re: So-Called Ancient Hindu spirituality concealing American LGAT 'tec
Posted by:
Guruphobiac
()
Date: July 31, 2008 07:33AM
Whatever. I've been reading and learning from your postings for years, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one point.
Re: So-Called Ancient Hindu spirituality concealing American LGAT 'tec
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: February 26, 2009 11:08PM
A very interesting discussion thread on Werner Erhard and Est is available here.
[forum.culteducation.com]
Since Werner helped sponsor Muktananda in one of his early visits to the US and one person suggested that Muk incorporated Est tech into Siddha Yoga intensives, this thread is worth reading and pondering.
[forum.culteducation.com]
Since Werner helped sponsor Muktananda in one of his early visits to the US and one person suggested that Muk incorporated Est tech into Siddha Yoga intensives, this thread is worth reading and pondering.
Re: So-Called Ancient Hindu spirituality concealing American LGAT 'tech'
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: October 24, 2010 11:49PM
Quote
A contributer on Rituals of Disenchantment posted this
Anonymous said...
BBC documentary series to watch
Century of the Self
[video.google.com]#
also can find on Utube
Documentary applies to many comments here. Werner Erhardt is in there. Werner helped shape the Siddha Yoga mind control machine for Baba*. Covers his techniques, same as used in Siddha Yoga.
[ritualsofdisenchantment.blogspot.com]
*('Baba' means Muktnananda)
From our thread on Landmark (the current version of EST) and hypnosis.
Persons who have been in SYDA/Siddha Yoga intensives, and thus exposed to Werner Erhard EST 'tech' incorporated by Erhards friend Muktananda into the Siddha Yoga Intensive should give close attention to these shares. See whether they apply to what you remember from the SY-Intensives.
In the case of SY, music, incense may have been used very much more. Scent is a potent way to reach deep areas of memory. Just think of how we are 'taken back' to childhood at the mere whiff of some scents we associate with cherished winter holidays.
So if anyone is struggling with what they went thorugh in SY intensives read this and see if it has any similarities. That way you may be able to ID elements of modern American tech that Muktananda borrowed from his buddy Werner Erhard and slipped into the brew which he advertised as ancient Hinduism but betrayed you by slipping in some modern American mind f**k-tech.
The URL from which these quoted excerpts are taken is this one and the pages on it that follow after page 3
[forum.culteducation.com]
caligari responded to this question:
Quote
notmuch4games
I have been following you guys for a couple of days now. Some very good info on this thread. I have a question-please give me some imput so I can understand how it works.....
Can someone tell me exactly how LM (Landmark) uses hypnosis on it's victims? Is there music, or some other trigger that they send recruits home with to "remind" them of their goals?
Caligari replied
Quote
When I did the Fear process it was classical group hypnosis with people laying down on the floor, closing their eyes, and following the suggestions of the session leader.
The leader speaks in the standard deap, monotone voice of hypnosis. Repeated suggestions of imagining fear situations as if they're real are repeated. You can hear others around you reacting with fear. Ending with suggestions and trigger of fealing confidence in fear situation is implemented at the end.
There are other closed-eyed "processes" (hypnosis) in the courses and when volunteering.
Less obvious are open eyed processes throughout the courses and volunteering to re-enforce past hypnotic suggestion and create new suggestions and triggers.
Music is not used to my knowledge.
Zorro reported
Quote
There is not any music used to hypnotize people. But they work you over mentally through circular reasoning, long hours into the evening, control of the room environment, control of breaks and meal time. They wear the participants down which puts them into a highly suggestive state, you will be struggling to grasp the concepts and wanting to figure out what they are talking about. They constantly repeat their jargon and want of the participants to recruit others. When a person leaves the "marathon" they are in a highly suggestive state, which stays around with the person if they continue on in the following weeks in the seminars if the participant enrolls in one. The bad thing is that the highly suggestive state doesn't close down once leaving a Landmark session. At that point you are even open to suggestions outside of Landmark and therefore even suggestions coming from environment can leave an imprint. It could be good suggestions or bad suggestions. The bad ones could leave a mark and then you get distressed and go back to Landmark seeking help for the problems and you get more of the same b.s. and it becomes a vicious downward spiral. It can be really bad if normal environment outside of Landmark is very negative.
But the Fear Exercise is straight up hypnosis. They ask you to close your eyes and start imagining the people and being scared of them. If you follow it to the T it can be intense. I heard people burst out crying! This hypnosis is done after you've been worn down and are vulnerable, so imagine the added impact it has. In my case I was sitting up in a chair, that's how they conducted it in my Forum. It was hard for me to grasp it since I wasn't the fearful type. I fully believe that the purpose of this exercise is to instill fear in people at various levels which can only grow over time. For me I became fearful of things overtime that otherwise wouldn't bother me or even have considered being afraid of before.
Now that I look back on it. This Fear exercise is a seed or foundation they build on. This is because that is what you basically work on from that point forward, fears. If you don't have them you go looking for them! The ones you have you pull out and get up close with which only makes matters worse. I freakin despise Landmark because of this. It destroys peoples lives.
notmuch4games commented:
Quote
Thanks Zorro, that helped. But what I still can't comprehend is why people who have been victims of LGAT seem to use the CDs that they come home with to trigger the feelings and goals that were emplanted in them at the training.(i use the term training losely) They can be almost back to their normal selves and then they hear a song that the group played at a low point, or high point, and then the brainwashing or hypnosis or whatever it is kicks in and they are lacking critical thinking again.
Zorro replied
Quote
I didn't get any CD's with Landmark. Maybe other groups give them out, which wouldn't surprise me. That would be a good way to reinforce their brainwashing for sure. They played a couple of really hokie (at least to me anyway) songs that I don't even remember. They also played short video clips from Monty Python and from Karate Kid (hmmm....trying to appeal to younger boomers and gen-x'ers like myself).
The most memorable thing I remember is that one day some of the center leaders got together infront of the SELP class and sang some lame ass song about prospecting for people and something about possibilites. There sheer stupidity embarassed me at that time, eventhough I was Lekked out.
After leaving Landmark I have reactions to certain things that I come across. There are a couple of commercials that sing about "Possibilities" that get played here in the North Texas area. One is put on by Sam's club and one is by Campbell's soup. When I hear it I actually have a physical reaction that makes me feel ill.
I also really cringe and get a bit ill when I hear many of the soft rock music songs from the 70's. I used to listen at times, when I was in Landmark, to a local public broadcast station that plays hit's from the 70's. Now when I tune it in I cringe and have a similar reaction where I get ill.
Also during my Lekkie phase I used to listen to a lot of Raymond Aaron CD's. But after I found out about his link to Landmark through a former EST person I quit listening to his stuff. I haven't thrown the stuff out, but I will not allow myself to play the CD's. Neither will I let anyone have them. I don't wan't someone to listen to a Guru that's full of BS.
I don't know why anyone would want to listen something that an LGAT gave them. I sure as heck wouldn't. I'll probably wait a very long time to watch Monty Python's Meaning of Life or the Karate Kid again. I'm not too keen on finding out if they would make me go barf in a trash can.
Blue Pill contributed this observation:
Quote
Yes I remember the Karate Kid extract because it was one of the points in my journey into hell where my "voice" said "Hang on a minute - this is just brainwashing".
Upon reflection, I remember that this piece was used very deliberately and with exact timing. It was just after a few brave souls had dared to challenge once more the relentless enrolment bollocks. After about an hour of battering these individuals into submission, out came the Karate Kid piece.
The message was roughly "You see, you really just don't get it, Landmark know far more than you can possibly ever know and you are so pathetically ignorant you could not possibly even know when we, your superiors, your god in fact are training you to be more like us. So stop whatever is left in you which is resisting and give in to our all knowing perfect way of life"
I remember after playing this and the Meaning of Life extracts no further questioning occured. Programming Complete.
Oh, I also remember the clip of Meaning of Life was deliberately stopped at the end when Eric Idle says the secret to Life is something along the lines of reading a good book, getting enough sleep and exercise etc.
Funny that - I wonder why that bit was edited out! Slightly different message to Landmarks version of the secret to Life now isn't it.
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