Yeah, at least you KNOW you are joining or are being invited to join the military.

This means that you can, well in advance of signing up, learn about what you are in for.

Veterans are readily available and will gladly tell you what they've been through--this, before you even sign up. And military veterans are not subject to reprisals or retaliatory lawsuits by telling you what they've been through.

I agree with blacksheep and corboy: Military service is NOT the same as a cult. I have been in both the Navy and the Soka Gakkai, and there is no comparison.

In the Navy, the rules and expectations were clearly stated in the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) and everyone had to follow them, enlisted and officer alike. While my Commanding Officer and Executive Officer had considerable power, they could not do whatever they wished. They had to answer to their senior officers. Even the most senior officers have someone over them, who can question their decisions. The CNO, or Chief of Naval Operations, has to answer to the Joint Chiefs of Staff -- who has to answer to the President.

In the Soka Gakkai, you simply have to do whatever your leaders, including President Ikeda say. President Ikeda answers to no one. He has been the Soka Gakkai's President since the 1960's, and was chosen by Josei Toda, the previous Soka Gakkai president. He cannot be removed...enough members are so in awe of him that they would do anything he asked, including jump off a cliff, without questioning it -- and there is no one senior to him who can disagree with his decisions.

The Soka Gakkai SAYS that it's all for dialogue and democracy. The reality? If you read www.fraughtwithperil.com, you will read the saga of a blogger, generally pro-Soka Gakkai, who dared disagree publicly with SGI on a couple of issues, and now is in the process of being kicked out. On www.buddhajones.com, you may also find the saga of the IRG -- members who asked Soka Gakkai leaders for reforms and got expelled for their trouble. These members have pointed out that if the SGI really is going to kick members out for dissenting -- it needs to clearly state to all members that this is the rule. It needs to be clear WHO decides what is unacceptable, on what grounds they decide a member's actions or speech is unacceptable, and what the consequences are. There need to be clearly defined rules and procedures. There aren't.

Rules are clearly defined and stated in the Navy. Servicemembers who are accused of infractions of the Uniform Code of Military Justice may go before a board. The servicemember has the right to be represented by a lawyer. The charges, who was on the board, and the board's decision must be documented in writing.

The Soka Gakkai does none of this. Apparently, members can be kicked out for whatever reason the leaders wish and there is no appeal process.

Navy commands have to submit to inspections to make sure that they are using their money and assets properly. The Soka Gakkai does not. President Ikeda and the senior leadership of the Soka Gakkai refuse to even let the members know how the money that members contribute is spent. The Soka Gakkai does own many multi-million dollar properties and President Ikeda, from all appearances, has a very luxurious lifestyle. My seniors in the Navy had to work for a living and were definitely not living in luxury.

The Soka Gakkai commands that members must "take President Ikeda as their mentor in life or risk falling into the 'hell of incessant suffering.'" While the Navy demands that you obey its regulations, it does not demand that you take anyone as a 'mentor in life.' Sailors are free to admire, or not admire, whomever they please.

In the Navy, I had to serve for a clearly defined period. (Though military services can involuntarily extend your period of duty during wartime or national emergency.) When I chose to leave the service and start a civilian career, my comrades wished me happiness and success. Even absolutely dedicated lifers can recognize that the Navy wasn't for everyone.

The Soka Gakkai, on the other hand, keeps telling its members that disasters will befall them if they leave the Soka Gakkai. Members who do leave are slandered and considered weak and disloyal.

Military regulations exist for good reason -- military people can suddenly find themselves under attack or in an emergency. Procedures, who is in charge, and rules need to be clearly defined or else you have chaos. If your ship is sinking, or your platoon is being fired upon by enemy forces, you don't have time to debate about who does what. Everyone just needs to follow orders and established procedures and they need to do it automatically. Police, firefighters and ER personnel must also.

However, what purpose does blind obedience serve in the SGI? They're not going into combat, rescuing people from burning buildings, dealing with gunshot wounds, or trying to keep a sinking ship afloat. The members' obedience and hard work are simply building up Ikeda's power and wealth.

Quote
corboy
Yeah, at least you KNOW you are joining or are being invited to join the military.

This means that you can, well in advance of signing up, learn about what you are in for.

Veterans are readily available and will gladly tell you what they've been through--this, before you even sign up. And military veterans are not subject to reprisals or retaliatory lawsuits by telling you what they've been through.

I was in the Army, and served in Iraq for 11 months (OIF3).

Also, I can only talk about Ft. Stewart. This was my first and only duty station in the States. Ft. Stewart (The Rock of the Marne, hooah) has a unique culture unto itself. Now it's no walk in the park and Army culture (for the junior enlisted, anyway) is degrading, demeaning, controlling, and yes there is a lot of abuse that takes place, mostly by unqualified and poorly trained NCOs.

They once made me pull guard duty, in a 5'X5' OP on top of a building near Sadr City, in the middle of the Iraqi summer, 130 degrees outside and you're in in full battle rattle (you vets know what I am talking about), in four hour shifts going twenty-four hours a day, four on, four off, like that, and I did that for ten weeks. Talk about sleep deprivation and exhaustion and little food and raw fear. Just my battle buddy and me, our radio, binoculars, battle rattle, and a lot of water. Getting shot at sometimes too, drive-bys, an occasional RPG fired at the OP, all that.

I also got to go on Freedom Rest; once I finished my ten weeks in that OP, my COC treated me to a few days R&R in one of Saddam's old palaces in the Green Zone.

Veterans go through a lot. My buddy Lopez got the brains of a man named named Walters literally blown all over his body when a shaped-charge IED removed everything above Walter's neck. Just blew his head clean off, and it removed the left arm of his TC. Walters was driving the Humvee, and Lopez was directly behind Walters. Lopez was covered in Walter's brains and skull and blood. Lopez was so freaked by that incident that he wouldn't speak for a couple of days, even though he got out of it without a scratch. Had some hearing loss, but that's it. After that, the NCOs didn't make Lopez do any more patrols.

I myself used to work in a BAS as a medic and saw a lot of wounded. But I was very fortunate; I only went on a handful of patrols (as my PT scores were never so high, I was used as a backup medic for patrols and only had to go out of the perimeter when we were short-handed) and never saw any major combat or anything. A lot of gory injuries though, mostly on Iraqi civilians.

In abusive religious groups those who leave the fold are usually treated as non-entities and castigated; "shunning" can be a very effective form of social control. In the military, you're not ostracized or anything by those still on active duty if you choose not to re-enlist. Usually, everybody will congratulate you for finishing your contract and getting out honorably. There are no negative consequences, real or implied, for those who choose leave the military.

So I don't consider it a slap in the face, as I certainly do not miss the Army, But is it a cult? No. I knew exactly what I was getting into when I swore in. In fact, compared to what I was expecting (something like the opening section from Full Metal Jacket with the crazy DI) BCT at Benning was a piece of cake. But when you get out of BCT and AIT, and into your unit, then it's a whole other ball game.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2008 05:34AM by zeuszor.

You may be thinking, "But I thought that medics don't pull guard duty?" You'd have a good point, but medics do pull guard duty if they upset their OIC but didn't really do enough to merit a 15 or a court martial. So that's how I ended up doing ten weeks in the OP. I pissed off my OIC and he made a special arrangement just for me. It's a long story. It was boring and we had to do SALUTE reports once an hour, in the meantime looking out over the city, scanning for anything suspicious, telling stories and dirty jokes and whatnot. We drank a lot of water and Red Bull in order to stay hydrated and alert. On my FOB, we got all the Red Bull we could drink; anytime, all you wanted. That's what I did all through the summer of '05.

The first man in my battery to die was named Anderson. Next was Walters, and then Sgt. McGill. Three men in my unit died there. I knew them all, drank with Walters in the barracks sometimes before we depolyed. All three of these men had small children back home when they died. A few of our guys (no women in my unit) lost limbs and/or sustained other gross injuries. I do not recall those names, just the names of the men who died. Anderson, Walters, McGill.

And I don't want to seem like I might be exaggerating anything: our BAS would take casualties (incoming from patrols in the night, out looking for "bad guys" after curfew hours) once or twice a week, and our FOB never once was mortared or rocketed; only occasionally we'd have an RPG or two fired into the perimeter, minor harassment. But we were very very fortunate considering where we were, our neighbor hood so to speak, and even though we didn't see casualties every day or anything, we did semi-regularly and saw some gory ones. The worst injury I personally ever saw (can't resist) was to an American civilian, a contractor that got crushed in an industrial accident. He lived while he was with us, we got him packaged and transported to the CSH, and I heard that he died there the next day.


But like I said, both my unit and myself were very fortunate. I wonder how Lopez is doing these days? We haven't spoken since before I was out.



Edited 11 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2008 09:03AM by zeuszor.

Quote
blacksheep
Exactly how do you justify called the United States military a cult? As a US Navy veteran, I feel this is a slap in the face to all past and present members of the US military. I think you are going a little overboard with this.

Please know that this is not meant to disparage veterans in any way, shape or form. It is directed at the concept of military forces (as well as terroristic and guerilla groups) in general, which, in my opinion, use brutal psychological tactics to train humans to kill other humans without question. I would ask that you consider the following:

- Military forces target and use people at a vulnerable stage of their lives (18-21), playing in the need of these people to fit into a group at all costs and providing them with selective information about what the commitment to joining the group means, similar to cults.
- They isolate new members for extended periods of time and subject them to brutal psychological processes that break down their individual personalities. These are 2 major indicators of cultic behavior.
- Militaries seek (and often succeed) in breaking down one of the strongest taboos of human behavior, that of killing another person at will (or supporting the processes that do). This is done during basic training, through sleep deprivation, screaming, yelling, enforced physical labor, emotional humiliation, submission of their own wills to that of the collective will of the group, forcing the person to obey orders without question and suspending their independent decision-making ability. Once again, these are all qualities that constitute cultic groups.
- Militaries encourage an strict "us vs. them" "insider vs. outsider" mentality, once again, closely in line with cultic groups.

I am sorry that you disagree with me, and it is your right to, but the similarities are simply too close to ignore.

Military training (in Army-talk BCT and AIT) is definitely a mind-control environment in which you are subjected to a process that molds you, reorients you from a civilian to a military bearing. Of course the military subjects personnel to mind control/coercive persuasion techniques. Of course you are rewarded for conforming and punished for not conforming, as a member of the military. Of course the whole idea is to minimize your individuality and personal autonomy and teach you to think as a part of a group. Of course they control your behavior, your communications with the outside world, tell you how to stand and how to eat and tie your boots and all that. Of course they are going to "smoke" you like a cheap cigar sometimes. Of course you can become desensitized to others' pain and suffering and get to the point where you only see a rank, not a person. You are dealing with a rank, not a person in the Army state of mind. That one might be hard for people who were not in to understand. Of course it is a dehumanizing and degrading and de-individualizing process. Duh. But still I hesitate to call the military a "cult." That seems like a sloppy application of the word. Is the US military as a whole an overly controlling and intrinsically abusive organization? No, IMO. Well, doesn't an Army, any kind of potent military force kind of have to be controlling and demanding of its soldiers for the sake of order and discipline? Wouldn't it even at times have to go to lengths that from the civilian point of view be considered "abusive?" It's going to have to be tough as nails by its very nature. A lot of people abuse their power in the Army for sure and few seem to be held truly accountable. But a cult? No.

I was one of the ones who got slapped with a "personality disorder" discharge and discharged (Honorably) from the Army on that basis.

[obama.senate.gov]

[ptsdcombat.blogspot.com]

[www.npr.org]

Now, if you want to know what I really think, I think that the US Army is one of the most hypocritical institutions on the planet. 3rd ID treated soldiers like s**t when I was with them. They say that they care about soldiers and families, but they really do not. I have no love for the Army, and yet still I am proud to have worn the uniform and of my service. Anything less and I'd feel like I had given Lopez a slap in the face.

[www.rikthib.com]



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2008 04:49AM by zeuszor.

Blacksheep,
Thank you for serving in that way. But people in the military do not serve the people, military personnel serve the military industrial complex and interests of the economic elite. In boot camp, is not it made very clear to you that while you are serving in the military you are property of the US Military? That is about as cultish as a group can get. Peace.

I am exploring this thread because of its mentioning of the Diamond Way new religious movement.

BuekerC1:

The United States military is not a cult.

See [www.culteducation.com]

This link explains the differences.

The Sharon Gans group, sometimes known as "The Work" (no relation to Byron Katie's group by the same name), and "Odyssey Study Group", is still active in NYC.

They are currently engaged in suing former members who have dared to post information about the group on a blog.

They are also active in Boston.