It is the position of a particular Native people as a collective to decide if they wish to teach outsiders or not and how much they should be taught. Interference from outsiders backing either side of an issue creates a problem. Also Outsiders designating who is part of a community and who isn't is a problem.

Comparing how things were when the white man arrived is very problematic. For someone who is claiming to learn from Native culture with respect and understanding to make such a claim shows a great amount of ignorance. This very claim puts Native identity as being static, as you suggesting that the way to identify Native people is by the degree to which they resemble the people that the first white explorers made contact with. In addition to not allowing Native culture to be a living a culture you also put way to much trust in the people who made first contact. If you need it I can show you how problematic this is. I will supply you with several references.

I studied in a Native Studies program (now called Indigenous studies) and I it was also focused on finding a respectful and tolerant place for an outsider. Some activities were appropriate for outsiders and some were not.

When you make a claim about the teachings of Native communities belonging to greater human family you are taking yet another piece of Native culture away from the people. You are removing the right for them to decide the destiny of their culture. This type of action has been carried by outsiders since the beginning. There is a lot of evidence that the system of Federalism and the American Constitution was influenced by the Iroquois Great Law but credit is not given.

This is dangerous territory and not one to be traveled by people who don't know their history.

Hi notanantiGnostic.


Your post was a difficult one to read and a difficult one to take. I confess that it shook me a little bit.

Before I respond to this, I think I should point out that I am a very small cog in the machine and I can only give my opinion. I don't represent the tracker school in any way and some of them might disagree with what I say, or perhaps even be mad at me for saying it.

Also, as as I mentioned above, Tom's books and later his classes may have saved my life. Needless to say, I have a strong fondness for him. I'm also well aware that many people consider him a liar.


OK, introduction aside, I think, in essence, this is the question:

Is it OK for Tom Brown (a white man) to teach me (a white man), Native American skills, like tracking, basketmaking, primative cooking, and philosphy including the vision quest and sweet lodge and more, or is it not OK?

You say that it is the choice of the people who those traditions belong to:

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notanantiGnostic

It is the position of a particular Native people as a collective to decide if they wish to teach outsiders or not and how much they should be taught. Interference from outsiders backing either side of an issue creates a problem. Also Outsiders designating who is part of a community and who isn't is a problem.

When you make a claim about the teachings of Native communities belonging to greater human family you are taking yet another piece of Native culture away from the people. You are removing the right for them to decide the destiny of their culture. This type of action has been carried by outsiders since the beginning.

And this is a difficult thing to disagree with, but if I may, I'd like to point out that, if you believe the story of Stalking Wolf, he saw a vision to wander and learn as many skills from as many tribes as he could, and later, to teach what he learned, not just from his tribe, but from many tribes, to a white man, and he instructed that white man to teach others.

So, if you believe the story, then it came from within the tribes to teach those outside. If you don't believe the story, or if you believe the story was misinterpreted, then you are 100% right and I made a mistake taking the classes I have taken. It wasn't just Grandfather who chose to pass some teachings down to Tom, but Grandfather's entire tribe was behind him, and many tribes that Grandfather met in his journeys were behind him too.

Second, you say that I am an outsider "designating who is part of a community", I never said Tom was part of a community, you're putting words in my mouth.

What I actually said was this

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I believe that Tom Brown is a good teacher and that he has tremendous respect for native american culture and tradition, but I'm hardly an expert.

It's perhaps a somewhat fine line, but saying "I believe somebody is a good teacher" and saying "this person is part of the community" are NOT the same thing. If you are going to correct me, you should correct my words, not different words.

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notanantiGnostic

Comparing how things were when the white man arrived is very problematic. For someone who is claiming to learn from Native culture with respect and understanding to make such a claim shows a great amount of ignorance. This very claim puts Native identity as being static, as you suggesting that the way to identify Native people is by the degree to which they resemble the people that the first white explorers made contact with. In addition to not allowing Native culture to be a living a culture you also put way to much trust in the people who made first contact. If you need it I can show you how problematic this is. I will supply you with several references.

I studied in a Native Studies program (now called Indigenous studies) and I it was also focused on finding a respectful and tolerant place for an outsider. Some activities were appropriate for outsiders and some were not.

All I was really trying to say that there is nothing inherantly exclusionary in their philosophy. I certainly never meant to suggest that anybody should follow a static philosphy and I most certainly don't believe that. But to me, this is a minor point and I concede it to you. I'll not use that example again.

I'm not sure it was necessary for you to say that I show a "great amount of ignorance" either, but that's your call and I'm interested in what you studied. You probably know a great many things that I do not.

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notanantiGnostic

There is a lot of evidence that the system of Federalism and the American Constitution was influenced by the Iroquois Great Law but credit is not given.

This is dangerous territory and not one to be traveled by people who don't know their history.

I've heard about how much Thomas Jefferson borrowed from the Native Americans in writing the constitution and declaration and I agree that credit should be given.

Whenever I speak about what little I've learned, I always give credit to Grandfather Stalking Wolf. Whenever I have heard Tom Brown speak, he does too. I agree completely with what you said here, but I'm not sure how it applies to my post, or where I suggested that anybody should not recieve deserved credit.


It's OK if you disagree with me, but please disagree with what I said, not with what I didn't say.

Hi Amhebera,

Just so you know I have not been able to evaluate Tom Brown Jr's program or teachings but i was writing on the general problems that come about when non Natives interact with Native teachings. Also I was not really responding to comments just trying to pass along a general understanding.

There a few things that may also be good to consider. How do you know that Grandfather Stalking Wolf is a legitimate teacher? Further how does the particular community he is from feel about their teachings being taught?

From my experience the generalization that the best teachers stay on reserve and don't interact with outsiders is not universally true across the continent. That may be true in particular areas but in some communities the best are encouraged to teach outsiders. It is also important to remember that Native people have specialist just like any other community. So an expert in history or culture might teach outsiders but someone who is trained in some of the deeper spritualities would not. How would we judge who is the best teacher? This is rather problematic.

Further since this is cult education side it is quite likely that someone could exploit Native culture in the source of their teachings but not be what we would call a dangerous group. The opposite is also true.

I hope this clarification helps.

Mr. Brown book Awakening Spirit provokes fear of traditional religions. His statments are vague, exaggerated and written in a tone of drams to move one to think "something" better is being vested inside his character of Grandfather. If you look historically at his claims
1. Grandfather learned the beliefs and doctrins of all religions in his life time...the reader needs to do independent consideration of the impossible nature of this statement. In the 1800's American had not transitioned mulitple extensive doctrine of all religions nor were language barriers removed adequately to even begin to digest them.

2. His use of the word Shaman would also have never been used. American Indians refer to their spiritual teachers as "medicine man." If Brown knows so much about Indians he would not make that error in recapping Grandfather's life and saying Grandfather's people called him a shaman. That word I believe is actually referring to indians near Russia and China. It is now integrated by us not American Indians.

3. A medicine man lives to serve people. A Native American's spiritualism is evolved beyond rituals to living with values than emulate the goodness of the Creator. One of the strongest values from this is their loyaly and love for family and their tribes. For a medicine man to turn his back on his people would be an enormous act of betrayal to himself, his people, his family, his Creator.

4. There are people who feel a bit taken back when they hear that Native Americans would not give their teaching to a white man..and those that say on this forum that historically they do show Indians shared their ceremonies with settlers. There is no harm intended in either thought. The fact is that the gift of being a medicine man or woman is one that comes through the lineage of the people and their faith. A medicine man still would offer healing to anyone for his life is service. Ceremonies where multiple races come together are like other religions..There is one ordained minister, priest, clergy who has studied for decades to earn the right to be in a position of leadership but his congregation can consiste of the baptized believers or non baptized believers for services open to them. Even Christian beliefs have such limitations such as "communion" which can only be celebrated when one has gone through teaching etc.

5. The character of Grandfather was said to have a grandson, Rick. This means Grandfather had at least one child. In all these years Mr. Brown has not answered anyone to give evidence of their existence nor has his brother, or anyone else. For a grandfather of such spiritual knowledge to extinguish his own linegage would never happen. His child or grandchilde would be taught and chershised as part of tradition.

6. You have to consider the history. Brown says Grandfather lived without a job, or any contact with people.
He was hiding from the white man.. False. Even at extreme times when Indians may have left a reservation to avoid the army 99% of the time they stayed in contact with their Tribe. Also, Lipan's like all Tribes had enemies so to stay in contact with their people he would have had limited areas to live.

7. Read the book The Awakening Spirit. Here him write about the white man in the early years of Grandfather and then realize he says Grandfather lived in Mexico for 20 years. History tell you Spain owned Mexico there were no white man oppressions..Spanish, Mexican. But Brown knows most people won't research..because people who believe Brown are seekers,, questioning..

8. His teachings are not of good, kindness , love compassion.. Ultimately, Brown teach fear and writes with a fear and hateful tone. Fear sells. And Brown sells the protection of the fear he creates. Look at his classes.
He teaches you have to get close to evil to know it..He teaches "family can't heal family.--why to divide you from loved ones who will stop you from his work--He is so involved in teaching you evil pretending that then once you know it so well you are more protected that your fear escalates..Your heart decsenends into his next step his prophecy of the end of the world..Great Fear..so you have to learn to survive where he gladly sells you those skills as well..He becomes "God Like" The one whose voice you hear and believe.

10. Facts: He asks you to read about mind control and one of his assistance to his group has a Masters in Hypnotism and does transcendal work. Think..his classes push the body to exhaustion, so you are undernourished, lack of sleep, and phsycially worn..the perfect storm he creates and then your mind becomes open to his suggestions...You think you are in control when actually you are being controlled

11. I have hear and seen from someone close to me the reality of his spiritual system. I have spoke to Apache members, I have researched historical and anthropological evidence.. It takes time and effort but isn't it better to know than just follow blindly. If you love nature and tracking their are hundreds of people who can teach you.

12. Mr. Brown was a boyscout. I questioned him enough to look into this influence. Go to Amazon and look up books by EArnest Thomas Seton, the founder of the Boyscouts. He hated religion, he wrote a story called Rolfing in the Woods about a boy and his indian friend, he wrote The Gospel of the Redman and many more. In Mr Brown's book the Tracker, in the first section he tells you he was a boyscout and his love for nature drove him to spend many hours in the library.. Mr. Seton book were written 1800- early/mid 1900's.. Brown I believe was born in 1950' all these books to his generation..my generation..were read and well known.. A mentor is only good when you can use his work for good and not ego.

13: Mr Brown could have removed doubt from himself many many years ago if he had shown authors, publishers, or the public the paperwork to his friend Rick's birth, family. etc. He could have had them tell of their own Grandfather. Also, because American Indians hold their truth in the stories they tell of great leaders and medicine man Grandfather's legacy would have first been told by the many tribes that Brown claims he did come into contact with..Grandfather born 1872/1874 died in 1967. This of our history and communication evolutions.. Mr Brown is he truly has gifts to share with people should remove the barriers and bring forth the amazing things himself. His book says. "Spritual Selfishness was foreign to Grandfather." How about you Mr. Brown..stop charging..do it the 'shaman way." they never charge..FACT!

14 Also. Mr Brown was born in 1950 met Grandfather at age 7 wrote about Grandfather almost 30-40 years later. Tell me how many details could you remember from age 7 of stories told to you by family. With no other references to remind you since nobody knew this but Brown?

15; As for the prophecy..well, If there was no Grandfather there was no prophecy only that which is in the bilbel and other known predictions. Anybody could write that, anybody could tell you a prophecy came true after it happened..and said it was part of the prophecy..

16. One thing of interest. Mr Brown uses an owl on his philosophy page. I asked an Apace friend who said, the Apache see the own as a bad omen, warning. I feel warned.

I want to chime in with my own experience with Tom Brown Jr. because becoming involved with him and his organization had a severe impact on my life and led to me nearly fatally injuring myself.

Synopsis: Tom Brown Jr. preys upon vulnerable minds at his tracker school by creating and reinforcing fears and insecurities. He uses hypnosis/storytelling/NLP techniques to do this.

The short version:

My mind was ripe to be captured a story that appealed to my belief that humans were doing damage to the planet. I became obsessed with Tom Brown Jr's books and signed up for a class. Though the week left me feeling strange and off, but I was addicted to the idea of becoming like the characters in Tom Brown Jr.'s stories, getting his approval, and saving the world. I was hysterically and unrealistically concerned with my perception that society was on the verge of disintegrating into chaos, an idea Tom Brown Jr. strongly promotes. Family members told me I was being unreasonable and were concerned.

I attended more classes and became more obsessed and negative. I attempted to really force myself to see the "spiritual reality" outlined by Tom Brown Jr., I didn't get much sleep and friends and strangers asked me if I was on drugs. I felt myself losing normal control of my mind. This scared me and I stopped thinking about it for a while. At some point, a renewed interest and obsession with Tom Brown Jr. emerged and I forced myself again to see the "spiritual reality", and this time I actually forced myself to experience paranoid psychosis. I suffered serious injuries that I will deal with the rest of my life due to decisions I made while delusional. I was diagnosed as having schizoaffective and bipolar disorders. My delusions were totally based on ideas from my experience with Tom Brown Jr. and the tracker school.

I had never been psychotic before. I took medication for a couple years, then stopped. I have not had any symptoms of psychosis and my psychiatrist believes I do not have schizoaffective disorder or bipolar disorder. Tom Brown Jr. and his organization the tracker school had an incredible, terrifying effect on my thoughts and emotions.

The more I listen to people who studied NLP in the 70s and 80s, particularly Richard Bandler and Mark Cunningham, the more I am convinced that Tom Brown Jr. was one of these people, who then miscredited what he learned about human psychology as "spiritual skills taught by an imaginary Apache man".

Another tactic I remember Tom Brown Jr. using at his Tracker School is, after building up an us-versus-them perspective during the week, was telling the students that when they go home they will find that people will be upset that they are on this path (i.e. Tracker School participants) and hardships will be encountered, but all of those things just mean that they are on the path to the light and that's the darkness targeting them for attack. That's fucked up. He is creating a loop in the minds of his vulnerable, desperate patrons, where hardships are inevitable and family members are bound to be concerned for their loved ones who are stuck believing in Tom Brown Jr's fabricated fantasy.

I would like to clarify that I have no conclusive evidence for the statements in my last post. And I have to face the fact that despite having attended classes, I didn't put into practice very much of what was taught at Tracker School, so I can't comment about whether much is valid or not.

Importantly, I left out of my story the fact that I had been using drugs heavily during the periods when I became partially or completely psychotic. I shirked my responsibility for how this affected my mental health negatively in order to try to make a scapegoat. Now that I have been clean for a little while I am thinking differently. The few things I have gotten a little experience with have validity I can see with my mind not addled by drugs, despite my initial opinions.

One thing for sure is, despite what I assumed about Tom Brown, there are students of his out there who are publicly doing things I admire and speak favorably of him.