Prasadam Das is a 30-year Krishna "cult" member who has posted here largely as an apologist for "cults."

His posts typically minimize or ignore serious problems within "cults" and controversial groups.

He is invested in pretty much the same nonsense being complained about regarding "body work," which is based upon subjective feelings and anecdotal stories, not hard science (i.e. peer-reviewed scientific research published in say JAMA).

Note his comments about "subtle energies" and the so-called "Asian approach."

He is expressing a type of magical thinking that is "bogus" and not scientifically based muscle massage.

But sadly "New Age" Neo-Eastern religiouly based massage is becoming popular.

BUYER BEWARE.

It can be hook for certain religious groups to proselytize and recruit new believers, not to mention a waste of money.

Moderator:

Thank you. I do think his post is instructive, however. This is the exact rhetoric (blending "subtle energies" with science, and making seemingly rational statements to cover their agenda) that is unfortunately endemic in massage.

Sadly, with the Oriental "Bodywork" questions on this widely used civil test, it has created a situation where spiritual coercion is blamed on the State. You have to learn about these "subtle energies" and the rhetoric of Holism, since most states will question your knowledge of both before granting you a civil license.

It's really sad. And also pretty terrifying, since many cults see this as proving they, too, can use the power of civil government to enforce training and belief in their doctrines, whether on a local or statewide level.

Thank you for the warning.

Rand

In New Zealand we don't have to deal with such exams. Asian massage is very good, very effective. I don't do this type of massage but I have experienced it and believe me it is just as effective as Western approaches to body work in helping with physical conditions in most cases. Mind you this is completely physical and leaving out any traditional Asian concepts of subtle energies. Personally I feel that such exams ought to not include the Asian concepts as most therapists work purely with Swedish or Deep Tissue techniques and very few work with Asian approaches. I may be moving back to the States at some point and most likely would have to take the National exam or State exams in order to get my license so I am in full agreement with you. However, massage techniques have been documented scientifically to be effective in treating many, many physical conditions. I know that the American Massage Therapy Association that I once was a member of is involved in supporting such research in order to validate massage as complementary form of healing. Just because an approach to body work is from Asia does not mean that it is not physical effective in treating pathological conditions. I think that the stereotype of massage therapists as being flaky new agers is not really accurate. Most of the people I know involved on a professional level as therapists are anything but that. Most of my clients are sent to me by Medical Doctors who are not crackpots. I also have met many therapists who work with Asian body work who are not into the new age movement on any level.

Prasadam Das:

You did not cite a peer-reviewed scientific study that has been published within a medical journal that specifically supports the idea that there are "subtle energies" in the body that can be manipulated by massage.

I am not aware that any such study exists.

As usual you skirt the real issue and attempt to soft peddle.

So-called "Therapuitc Touch" (TT) has been proven false for some time.

TT is nonsense and so obvious a fourth grade schoolgirl easily saw through it.

See [www.cnn.com]

Her findings were published by JAMA.

Also see this report [www.csicop.org]

TT is a belief based upon "New Age" and Neo-Eastern relgious beliefs not science. And claiming otherwise is misleading.

Obviously your involvement in Krishna has affected your judgement and influences your massage practice.

Krishna (ISKCON) has bee called a "destructive cult" and has hurt many people through its sordid history.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Needless to say like many "cults" it can negatively impact critical thinking.

My main point is that Asian forms of body work are very effective on a purely physical level as well. This is a fact regardless of belief in subtle energies. I read about that experiment in Skeptical Inquirer years ago and I wouldn't say that it really proves anything. Anyway, I do a strictly Western, very technical approach to body work . I am not an expert on Asian body work, nor are you, but as an experienced body worker I do know that it is designed for helping with physical conditions.

One of the most frustrating part of losing my license is that the massage board is telling other massage therapists my connections with skeptic organizations was a large part of my loss of licensure.

Such lack of faith is a punishable offense now in the "Spiritual Profession" of massage. My own pointing out that TT has no real scientific backing was countered with the "fact" that the underlying beliefs are considered true by the State, and thus I had no right to question them.

One of the massage therapists who was told about my loss of licensure in his school (and this was across the U.S. from me) was told my skeptical background was a large part of my loss of licensure, since disbelief is no longer tolerated in "our spiritual profession."

I've always been a cautious believer in the Spiritual movement, realizing the gulf between what people believe and what can be scientifically proven. But with my loss of licensure becoming an advertisment that civilly enforced beliefs can take legal precedent over scientific or religious freedoms, it's gotten really ugly. Disbelief, at least in Massage, is not tolerated by civil boards. Heresy against the State is a civilly punishable act.

You might see why I'm getting death threats over this. Fanatical groups are lining up to back this "new paradigm" of legal precedent, where belief can (and is) sanctioned and supported by law.

Incidently, this movement is also becoming hostile to Hindu and Taoist beliefs, even though they borrow from both. Only the whole doctrine as put forth by the NCE, a synthesis of various beliefs from a wide variety of sources, is Truth. My own beliefs resemble in many ways these beliefs, yet that wasn't enough. They must mirror these Truths, and defend that faith against all other "inferior" beliefs.

The "Catechism" of massage (and I have heard it called that) which includes the "Trinity" of Body, Mind and Spirit, as set forth by the NCE are the only beliefs tolerated in the Spiritual Profession of Massage.

This has actually reached the point where, in some areas, the Hindu Chakras are seen as State recognized, but the Jewish Chakras, as put forth in the Kabballah, "aren't good enough" to be state sanctioned. So this test is becoming a bludgeon to enforce total spiritual conformity, where even other Spiritual beliefs are questioned if they vary from the state-enforced "Truth" of massage.

It is not everywhere, but it is a growing movement. In our area it's a huge problem, since our massage board is bragging they have proved civil rights take second place to "their" truth. And using other religious and political fanatics to help enforce this new legal "fact."

Rand

Prasadam Das:

You play the same game over and over again.

You are on this board to blunt criticism and/or offer apology for cult or cult-like groups.

Now its TT that you are attempting to play this game with.

The "main point is" TT has no scietific basis as supported by a peer reviewed publihed sceitific study.

And despite your subjective observation, that you "wouldn't say that [the fourth grader's work] proves anything," JAMA disagrees with you.

When it comes to a a "strictly Western, very technical approach" JAMA would be a definitive source for information not ISKCON (Krishna) and Neo-Eastern mystiscm.

rrmoderator wrote about Prasadam :


"He is invested in pretty much the same nonsense being complained about regarding "body work," which is based upon subjective feelings and anecdotal stories, not hard science (i.e. peer-reviewed scientific research published in say JAMA).

Note his comments about "subtle energies" and the so-called "Asian approach."

He is expressing a type of magical thinking that is "bogus" and not scientifically based muscle massage."

Subjective feelings and anecdotal stories....

My observation of this website is the same. Anonymous posts reflecting their subjective experience of something they usually say they didn't like. Those who dare claim they did like something are "labeled" apologists.

"not hard science (i.e. peer-reviewed scientific research published in say JAMA). "

Excellent point! Much of the discussion on brainwashing on this site has little reference to scientific studies also. I did find something on the (APA) site that supports some of the claims made here. And calls into question some others.

for more click here, balanced, informative:

[www.apa.org]

I guess I don't see Tony Robbins or Landmark fitting into the coercive brainwashing paradigm of Communist China or Jonestown. The people I've met seem normal to me. Although I must admit that some of the "true believers" of many religions, Group Awareness Seminars, and even Amway participants "appear" brainwashed to me also!

But at the end of the day, I have not seen any scientific proof to indicate that they are anything more than victims of social coercion at worst or simply bad personal judgement.

random factor,

it's very interesting what you are saying. I have been involved with body work since the 70's but did not actually go through a formal program until the mid-80's. When I was in school I would say maybe three or four of the students in my class of 22 would have been the types open to subtle energies ( One of whom was me). Most of the students in my program were more oriented toward deep tissue. Several went on to specialize in sports massage and a few others went on for more advanced training with a focus on medical massage for injury recovery. As someone who believes in subtle energies I must state that part of why I chose the program that I attended was that I personally wanted an education with a focus on science and physical technique. I think that what you are experiencing is wrong and I suggest that you talk to people in your local AMTA chapter as they might have some ideas and be able to help you. You DO NOT have to believe in chi to work with body work. Chi in New Zealand is the name of a sparkling mineral drink with Kiwi fruit. ( It has Chinese herbs in it too, but I think that is just to attract the new agers< it tastes good none the less.)

There has been some historical controversy regarding the issue of "cult mind control" within the APA as the link "warytraveller2" posted demonstrates.

However, much of this was historically orchestrated by "cult apologists" working closedly with groups like Scientology and the Unification Church.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Jeffrey Hadden, now deceased, discusses this in the above linked memo that he distributed in 1989. Iminent psychologist Margaret Singer was essentially being targeted for her anti-cult work.

To better understand the APA controversy regarding the report Singer submitted on cult influence--

See [www.culteducation.com]

The understanding of thought reform or "brainwashing" has long been accepted through the works of Robert Jay Lifton as expressed through his book "Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism."

See [www.culteducation.com]

Lifton's work has been embraced by both psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health professionals.

Philip Zimbardo, past president of the APA, likewsie has expressed support of these same themes as understood within cults.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Regarding the problems posed by mass marathon training such as Landmark Education psychologist Philip Cushman offers the following research and analysis--

See [www.culteducation.com]