Evidence.....?

Well we do have what Dave says....and DOESN'T say....on his own site....

(As the JC's do not "distribute" in Korea, as far as I know, I can't comment directly!)


(a) Zeusor revealed that after November, the former "disciple" were not only NOT contributing, but that they were only occasionally even "looking" in at the JC site....after his comment, McKay promptly removed this function, from the JC web site.

(b) There was the that one brief public enquiry last year about the JC's last year (Alex was it?)...David clearly trying to go to efforts to allay any suspicion of a "collapse" in his support.

(c) The "degree" of the involvement with the "Catholic Workers" would seem unlikely to have been "endorsed" by McKay....(Can anyone name a single positive thing he has ever said about the CW's....or ANYONE who offers an alternative to service to himself....on his own website?)

(d) Franky is in London...she once often remarked that she would chance upon the JC's distributing in the streets.....Has she encountered them recently?

(e) Sisi's remarks that Sue, quietly advised her that most of the JC's have an "understanding" to simply ignore McKay when he gets into a rant....


....McKay to my mind, stands chiefly condemned by the ongoing own idiocy of his mouth...


The interesting observation that someone made on Wikipedia (do we know who?) that the Jesus Christians faced criminal sanctions(contempt of court) for misuse of the funds destinied to be paid into an account for Rheinehardts ongoing rehabilitation (but otherwise spend on a "Cruise" and to the greater glory of McKay).....would provide a ready reason for "McKay" to stage a false disbanding, in imitation of Berg....

....and yet I feel, like Blackhat, that all has somehow, not quite gone according to "plan" for him (for some of the reasons discussed above)....while I would still agree with with Apollo and Stoic that it would be meet to continue to assume the worst, until proven otherwise....the Moderator having already written of the "evidence" of disbandment, that we should be looking for.....re-engagement with family.....and healthier, "Non-McKay" pastimes....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2011 08:15AM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

Someone made a pertinent remark on another thread, about another group, that I think applies to all such groups--and that is that the group the leader sees and the group the followers see are two distinctly different entities.

This would explain Sue's comment to Sisi that the followers have a tacit agreement to ignore Davejc's rants--which would indicate to the naive observer that there is some independence of thought there.
However, despite managing to ignore his rantings, the followers continue to operate his business and do his bidding--falling in behind him when he declares a position and automatically, themselves, perpetuating the lie of the moment.

It is the behaviour that tells the real story, not the assertions that the followers are able to ignore Davejc's leadership. When push comes to shove they obey him, no matter how lunatic his position. Despite her assurances to Sisi, the moment Davejc pronounced Sisi a heretic Sue turned on her former confidante, like a well-trained attack dog. She was obedient to Davejc's wish, overriding any thoughts she herself might have had about the validity of his rantings. Words are cheap, actions are a more reliable indicator of the real motives.

This has nothing to do with logical assumptions and a lot to do with the extent to which they have allowed him to dictate the order of the world for them. They are believers in Davejc, which is an emotional, not a logical position to take.

I think that is why, until there is concrete evidence of a real change of heart that is evidenced in the behaviour, not in the endless wordy justifications, it must be assumed that the followers are still under the direction of Davejc, no matter what they would otherwise have us believe.

What I currently fail to understand is why Blackhat is here on this thread constantly attempting to convert us to a similar belief in Davejc's endless wordy justifications for his appalling behaviour.
Blackhat is free to believe whatever Blackhat wants to believe about Davejc, but why try to proselytise those beliefs here? The arguments are so thin as to be laughable, and the times that Blackhat pops up to try to derail the discussion, illuminating.
For example, mention of his long COG association and the word paedophilia brings on a red herring as to the merits or not of home-schooling for people living several centuries ago.

What are you not telling us, Blackhat, that you feel such a need to defend and protect Davejc and his nefarious doings from his critics?
And why were you, normally a prolific and opinionated poster, so conspicuously absent when Davejc and his puppets were rampaging at will on the xJC's?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2011 05:01PM by Stoic.

Quote
Stoic
What I currently fail to understand is why Blackhat is here on this thread constantly attempting to convert us to a similar belief in Davejc's endless wordy justifications for his appalling behaviour.
Blackhat is free to believe whatever Blackhat wants to believe about Davejc, but why try to proselytise those beliefs here? The arguments are so thin as to be laughable, and the times that Blackhat pops up to try to derail the discussion, illuminating.
For example, mention of his long COG association and the word paedophilia brings on a red herring as to the merits or not of home-schooling for people living several centuries ago.

What are you not telling us, Blackhat, that you feel such a need to defend and protect Davejc and his nefarious doings from his critics?
And why were you, normally a prolific and opinionated poster, so conspicuously absent when Davejc and his puppets were rampaging at will on the xJC's?

I have challenged Dave far more than you ever have, Stoic. I have spent a long time on his own web site challenging him about things like whipping a black person who stole some insignificant books. I have spent many years challenging him, far more than you.

In recent times I have seen yourself and Apollo take control of this thread, and have decided that I would rather leave you to it than be engaged in your current tactic.

Regarding his long COG connection, it was actually me who brought it to your attention:

[forum.culteducation.com]

Here we go again.

Stop the petty personal attacks.

This thread should stay focused on the topic, not arguments regarding individuals posting here.

Quote
Stoic
And why were you, normally a prolific and opinionated poster, so conspicuously absent when Davejc and his puppets were rampaging at will on the xJC's?

Blackhat seemed offended by our investigation into paedophilia within the JCs cult. That was the reasoning she provided for her absence on both forums at that time. Personally I believe she was hoping to win browny points with one or two individuals on the xjcs, most notably Kevin. She felt Dave had nothing to answer for and even used Dave's ''word'' as evidence that he had no case to answer. She encouraged us to ''drop it'' on numerous occasions despite the huge amount of evidence which proved Dave's soft approach towards paedophile's was putting children at serious risk of harm, with a minimum of 19 child sex abuse victims at the last count. I personally suffered a barrage of abuse for the part I had played in this investigation. I was dismissed as a ''muck raker'' and a ''tabloid journalist knob looking for a sex angle''. Blackhat desperately tried to divert us but with the help of brave souls like Franky we have been able to make some progress.

When Dave first arrived on the xjcs Blackhat privately strongly warned me not to mess it up for everyone else as they had all been waiting over a decade for that moment. I was basically told to ''zip it'', which to be fair I initially did do until I realised Dave was being given a free reign to takeover the forum with very little sign of these people who had apparently been waiting over a decade for this moment.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2011 04:12AM by Apollo.

Unfortunately for the poor victims, we don't have to look for a sex angle--it has been there from the beginning with Davejc's long association with and admiration for the COG.

All we are doing is prising apart the veneer of lies that Tyrannus has attempted to hide behind in order to run his mini-COG operation as an untainted christian ministry and sucker in more unsuspecting, unpaid, youthful workers to run his business.
It is more comfortable, maybe, for some to profess a belief, against all odds, in those lies but that is aiding and abetting the perpetuation of Davejc's victimisation of any recruits he manages to hook.

And he continues to justify his sheltering, within the group, of known paedophiles with access to vulnerable children.

'Tyrannus', I can't get over how apt Davejc's COG membership name has turned out to be:

[en.wikipedia.org]

'The English noun tyrant appears in Middle English use, via Old French, from the 1290s. The word derives from Latin tyrannus, meaning "illegitimate ruler", and this in turn from the Greek ôýñáííïò "monarch, ruler of a polis".'


Not being much of a biblical scholar, I find the definition of 'Lebanon' Cherryjc's COG membership name, more perplexing--all I can think of is the prized wood of the cedars of Lebanon which kings used for their buildings while the poor used the more common pine :


Lebanon

[www.abarim-publications.com]

The Lebanon is a mountain range in north Canaan.

The name Lebanon comes from the root (lbn 1074), which yields a range of words that have to do with white or whiteness. See the name Laban for more details.

The name Lebanon means White Ones.

This would explain Sue's comment to Sisi that the followers have a tacit agreement to ignore Davejc's rants--which would indicate to the naive observer that there is some independence of thought there. However, despite managing to ignore his rantings, the followers continue to operate his business and do his bidding--falling in behind him when he declares a position and automatically, themselves, perpetuating the lie of the moment.


Well of course you may well be right there, Stoic (I certainly agree with you in relation to the general psychological principles at work!).....Sue and husband and child being duly "booted out" by McKay in Sydney, not long before the infamous cruise....may though, hint, that there was at least sufficient "independence of thought" lurking somewhere, for McKay to feel his authority threatened....

Were I to meet them today (in Guildford?)....I'm sure I'd get nothing but "McKay think" out of them....even though, they are no longer in fact, even, official members of the JC's. You need to allow me, the benefit of my "time frame"....(12 - 16 months, to wake up to the fact that McKay has "loved" them down the years, for nothing more than he could get out of them....)...Ash Falkingham, needed this nature of time to forget the old coot...

Jeremy and Ross both posted "one-liners" on the JC site in January....(which tells us that there is nothing physically, preventing them from posting)...nothing since then....and nothing for an even longer time frame, from any of the other JC's....McKay the creep, would read this website....He is unable then to persuade his own "disciples" to do as little as to post on the JC site?, ......if merely for nothing other than the sake of appearances?

The curtailment of any further distribution of the fiends pitiable writings is definitely important.....I would think though that the change in the perception of the "value" of McKays ideas, is well under way now....where once they were absolutely primary....they are now competing with other influences....

McKay's selfishly grasping nature and feeble intellect, will only become more and more exposed....


Let me commit myself though, to a definite "position" that may be potentially disproved...

The JC's in London, won't "look back" from the Catholic Workers...no-one there will now return to the "fold" (dependent upon McKay for approval)...and even if McKay directly told them to cut themselves off the Catholic Workers, the JC's in England now wouldn't, even were they still too frightened to say as much to his face and chose to simply lie to him....(McKay realizing that, would then instead of course, try to deceptively manipulate them, by inculcating guilt in them, for not doing enough to "spread the word" (i.e. sell his atrocious booklets)...I believe that they would be able to see through him though, even if they would still "visualize" the world to be much as he taught them)...IF they are still distributing "McKay think" in print....it will rapidly become a smaller and smaller...and smaller again, focus in their lives...

You are cordially invited to ask any friends in London to look out for the JC's, Stoic...or ask around if anyone has received their literature lately...

I can't speak about those in the US (although I think McKay will be cursing the influence of Grace under his breath) or in Kenya or Aust. for the moment.


But really, don't you guys, think this is just bliss.....having lonely McKay, slowly watch his life work crumble into nothing, before his rheumy old eyes....

...as for myself?.....I just LOVE it!!

Yes...I too, Apollo, thought it was rather a "Freudian Slip" for Tyrant McKay to so name himself.....thanks for the link!

Quote
Malcolm Wesley WREST
Jeremy and Ross both posted "one-liners" on the JC site in January....(which tells us that there is nothing physically, preventing them from posting)...nothing since then....and nothing for an even longer time frame, from any of the other JC's....McKay the creep, would read this website....He is unable then to persuade his own "disciples" to do as little as to post on the JC site?, ......if merely for nothing other than the sake of appearances?

Which suggests to me that everything is not as it seems. I believe they are under orders not to post. If there was some kind of ''disband'' the chances are a couple of them would still feel a sense of loyalty towards their former leader and would at least contribute the occasional posting. For the whole cult to completely disassociate themselves from the man (including his own daughter and son-in-law) I think McKay would have to make a MONUMENTAL error. One scenario could be McKay being caught sexually abusing a child (which seems unlikely but I certainly wouldn't completely dismiss it out of hand, considering his COG association and his friendship with numerous paedophile's). It would have to be something that extreme for the whole cult to completely disown him almost overnight, imo.

No, sorry, i'm just not buying it. They had a huge dvd recruitment drive only last summer. Before that they had a huge Youtube recruitment drive. Both have proved unsuccessful. As far as i'm aware these recruitment drives have attracted ZERO new victims/followers. I'm sure they did gain some interest but there is just so much information now available online that it's scaring away the ''potentials''. His only hope now would be to go underground in an attempt to fool his critics into believing that the cult has now ''disbanded''.

It was also only a few months ago he was trying to arrange a meeting with the parents of one of his victims/followers.

Oh, and just for the record.....I do not believe McKay was single handedly controlling all four usernames on the xjcs forum. I think it may genuinely have been Joe and another couple of his victims/followers.