Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: May 04, 2023 03:21PM

> [] › lekcii › yoga ›
> yoga-audio › meditaciya-haribol-nitaygoor
> The mantras are: This time we are going to sing
> the mantras. But first let's pronounce them as we
> did at the beginning just to make sure we can do
> it correctly. Ok, everybody ready? HARIBOL

Balakhilya das wants to be correct so much? Why then he does not wear tilaka on his forehead during lectures? Only lectures. Not all the time. Only the time he supposedly represents Parampara....

> First of all: Haribol is not a mantra. It's a
> phrase. It means to chant the name of the god
> Hari. Nitai Gaur is not a mantra either. It cannot
> be found in any vedic or puranic scripture as such
> and at best it qualifies as a "bhajan", a
> sentimental sing-song for devotees of the
> so-called incarnation of "god"(s) Krishna and
> Balarama some 500 years ago in Bengal.

That is an argument.

> Second, these "mantras" were speculated and
> adopted by Siddhaswaripananda/Butler as a way to
> avoid singing "Hare Krishna" in public so as not
> to associate his group with ISKCON. That is all.
> This is the only reason. A partisan, sectarian
> concern.

That is interesting. That's what Caitanya wanted was congregational chanting of Maha Mantra.

> Finally, Hare Krishna is also not found in any
> scripture besides ONE very unlikely Upanishad that
> is really only recognized by Gaudy Vaishnavas. Any
> other mention of it is also only in books only
> accepted by Gaudiyas.

That's their choice.

> I'll tell you what. It's called cult dynamics.

Yes, you can see deviations and changes in philosophy, rituals or behavior. Existing term - prakrita sahajiya.

> Hare Krishna started 500 years ago. By the time
> the so-called Goswamis died, the religion fell
> apart. It was resurrected by Bhaktivinode and his
> son. Mostly based on claims they made based on
> their dreams.

As Bhaktivinod Thakur admitted, he was inspired by the teachings of Jesus Christ as well.

What is interesting is the fact that Hari-bhakti-vilasa (Worship of Hari) Gopala Bhatta Goswamin was the co-author of this book (written on the order of Caitanya Mahaprabhu). It describes the rituals and norms of behavior of devotees of Krishna. The order was for Sanatana Goswami.

> Today, Hare Krishna is nothing more than a garden
> variety religious faction movement hiding under
> the label of "hindu". Hinduism is a sectarian
> religion. Its' gods, stories and ideology is
> firmly based int he historical sects and beliefs
> of India. The very god Krishna is a cow-loving god
> wearing Indian clothes, living in an Indian
> village and speaking an Indian language. Current
> day adherents of Puranic Hinduism make up the
> majority of what we call Hindus and Hindu
> Nationalists. Hinduism and its various sub-sects
> are relevant to India. Not to the world at large.

One should also consider emigration or jasyr after the Battle of Kosovo.

> Their cultural relevents and significance are
> squalor within India. and it's arguable how much
> good it is really doing for India as a whole at
> this point and time in history. Most intelligent
> young people in India are moving passed it and
> hate that their country is plagued by it. That is
> a fact. That it has cultural roots that go deep in
> India is largely a plague on the life of the
> average Indian today. Politically and socially it
> has few if any redeeming qualities.

No doubt India has experienced many stages or incidents of destruction. While Alexander the Great stopped and Hindu and Greek cultures intertwined (i.e. Bhaktria), Muslims invaded India and caused many changes. Then there were the British and their East India Company.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2023 03:24PM by Culthusiast.

Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: May 04, 2023 06:31PM

Hari-Bhakti-Vilasa, 199-200


In giving the mantra and performing siddha-sädhya and other rituals, the spiritual master should consider whether the disciple is from his family or another family, is young or old, or is man, woman, or eunuch. The spiritual master should also consider where the stars are in the räçi, whether it is time of wakefulness or sleep, and whether the disciple is wealthy
or in debt.

On the way to the Transcendence circumstances matter - limited power of mantras? Or attitude? Of course - what mantra.



In the Tantra is given the following exception to this mantra:
"He should not purify the siddha and other mantras when they begin with Om, come from the Vedas, or glorify
Nåsiàha, Sürya, or Varäha.

not purifying? And what about "Om-Hari-Om" - begin and end ?



"He should not purify the siddha and other mantras when they are obtained in a dream, given by a woman, are mälämantras, have three letters, or have one letter.

So what about woman leaders giving mantras? What mantra?

And another contradiction in SIF - business oriented:



In the Narada Purna it is said:
"O brahmanas, the Supreme Personality of Godhead is attained by devotional service, not by giving money. Lord
Visnu fulfills the desires of they who worship Him with devotion.

Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2023 06:48PM by Culthusiast.

Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: May 04, 2023 08:59PM



Although Chaitanya himself insisted that anyone who is devoted to Krishna automatically becomes a brahmana, there were only very few non-brahmana, who played a role of leadership in the young group of Gaudiya Vaishnava movement.


Haridasa was 35 years older than Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and his prayers along with prayers of Advaita Acharya were the reason for Chaitanya Mahaprabhu descent.


Advaita Acharya repeatedly proclaims that becoming a Vaishnava, regardless of one's background, removes all past conditioning.

But still this conditioning - accoriding to Hari-Bhakti-vilasa - matters when initiation is concerned.


Haridasa Thakur was chanting mantra consisting of the names Hare, Krishna and Rama. Hare Krishna mantra appears originally in the Kali-Santarana Upanisad:


He was asked to join forces with Nityananda who was older than Chaitanya by some eight years, and he believed to infuse into the movement a great passion

Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2023 09:25PM by Culthusiast.

Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: May 06, 2023 10:38PM

A reminder of the story of Bogdan and Malgorzata, the death of their child and court cases. Bogdan is also dead.


Their child had died before, now they could have two more. Parents are followers of Hare Krishna
The trial of Malgorzata and Bogdan N., accused of extreme neglect of their children, has started. Piotrus and Wojtek were hospitalized in a state of complete exhaustion. Earlier, their 14-month-old son Pawel died in mysterious circumstances




They did not receive professional care

The couple faced two charges. One concerns Piotrus, and the other concerns his brother Wojtek. The boy was looking forward to the doctor for a long time, although he suffered from diarrhea and vomiting. The experts concluded that he was in a life-threatening condition. Parents explained to investigators that the child was treated with homeopathic medicines.

According to experts, parents are responsible for the poor health of the boys. They did not care about regular examinations, they did not use professional medical care. Therefore, they will be responsible for endangering the health and lives of children. The justification of the indictment in this case is 20 pages long.

Educated people

Malgorzata and Bogdan N. are educated people. They have six children, but none of them go to school. Malgorzata N. teaches them at home. Her husband is a teacher in one of the secondary schools in Zamosc Both are followers of Hare Krishna.

In February 2013, their 14-month-old son, Kacper, died. The boy was supposed to fall over while playing with his older brother. The doctor had doubts about the cause of the child's death and how he had been cared for. An autopsy, however, showed that the baby was healthy.

The prosecutor's office discontinued the proceedings. Now Malgorzata and Bogdan N. are facing up to 5 years in prison.

And now Balakhilya das wants to talk about:


"A recipe for a happy life"

Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: May 27, 2023 03:30AM










“Kali Santarana Upanishad is one of the smallest Upanishad and contains the importance of the chant Hare Rama...Hare Krishna...”
“The Kali-Santarana Upanishad, also called Kalisantaranopanisad, is a Sanskrit text. It is a minor Upanishad of Hinduism. The Vaishnava Upanishad was likely composed before c. 500 CE. ...”

“The Kali Santarana Upanishad is widely considered by many to be a later interpolation, for multiple reasons: there are no ancient commentaries of it or ancient references to it; I think it’s the only Upanishad that mentions the Yuga system, which was only mentioned in later and more recent Itihasas and Puranas...”

There are mahamantras for every god and goddess in India. Mahamantras appear all throughout Indian scriptures. That a claim is made for a Hare Krishna mahamnatra is nothing novel. There is mahamantras for Ganesh, shiva, durga, Hanumna, Indra, Mahaveera etc etc. The list goes on.

Every tradition and subtradition of Viashnavism, which covers the worship of Vishnu and his many incarnations has a mahamantra. That a highly suspect later addition to the upanashadic cannon mentions the Hare Krishna mantra is as irrelevant as it gets. If anything, the word Krishna used in traditional sanskrit vedic context simply meant “black”, that is it. There was no esoteric version or interpretation. The god is not even developed fully until the Bhagavata Purnana, composed some 1500 years ago at best. The hare krishna mantra is not mentioned in the Bhagavatam, nor is Radha or her significance. Her evolution happened also very recently and was mostly developed by Jayadev and other bhakti poets who felt that Dwarkadish krishna needed to have a more intimate paramour in a time when erotic poetry was in vogue in India and making it’s way literally into every spiritual tradition including Islam, Buddhism and other tantric movements.

“Hare” is the vocative form of the word Hara, which is a name of lord shiva. Vedically, the word Rama, again, simply means “dark in color” and refers mostly to night in vedic verses.

The much much later devolution/evolution of Sanskrit resulting in Vaishnavite’s uses of these words as “names of god” is no different than the name Robert (glory/fame in proto germanic) referring simply to the guy at the gas station.

Sure, with intent, one could theoretically chant themselves into a frenzy if all they do is chant 64 rounds a day (literally 6-7 hours of your life if you include urinating and taking an occasional shit). One could also obliterate much of ones thought process and conscious critical thinking by such incessant chanting, no doubt. But once you take a break, will your thoughts about other stuff come flooding back in? You betcha.

Most of the time such ritualistic cult activities amount to nothing more than distractions. Usually from deep fears of death and loneliness. In and of themselves they are not bad. But when coupled with an ideology of service to Butler or to a bunch of clown gurus who are feeding you a line, it’s destructive. Mainly to raise your kids in such an environment. No child should ever be raised and told who to give allegiance to and worship. You rob them of their own journey and life decisions. Same with religious dogma and ideology. It stifles critical thinking and imprints upon a young mind to simply believe whatever bullshit the guru says.

All people who are born and raised in cults reflect on the great positive aspects of their upbringing and at the same time on the many drawbacks and ways that it handicapped them. A major way that such cults handicap kids born into it is that they NEVER will question or give up their mental dependence on viewing the world in some way through the lens of the cult’s dogma. Some aspects of it will always linger with them. In many cases they are hopelessly stuck, mentally, in the cult they were raised in forever because the core psychology of those formative years have woven into the very fabric of their thought process. Look at Tulsi Gabbrad from being pro-life, pro choice, and back to pro life to the point of banning abortions altogether. She went from being militaristically anti-gay to pro-gay and now anti-gay and queer again. She will never be able to shake her bias and intolerant hare Krishna upbringing. Never. It’s woven into her mind and a part of everything she believes about the world. She thinks the world is full of demons and anyone who wants to broaden the spectrum and be more inclusive of differences and fight for equality is somehow a “woke demon”. These ideas have been sqaulry planted in her brain by Butler, not her own critical thinking. Don’t believe me? Look at any Butler devbot and you’ll see the same message being parroted in uniform order. If Butler changed his tune they’d all sing to it. Any form of autonomous thought has been largely weeded out of their lifestyle. And the type of crowd that Gabbard and Tusli attracts is also the type that wants to live by blind dogma rather than common sense. Don’t believe me? Read her twitter feed.

I have seen over the years so many krishna kids who had been abused and raped in this cult and they still go back to it and believe in it all.

Even the folks that have come on this forum, seemingly leaving this cult, will always make some reference to “karma” and “guna” and other hare krishna lingo that they still hold on to as some sort of unalterable fact. All of it is bullshit amigos. That you can juggle words to try to show some “benefit” or amazing aspect of say, Ekadasi or chanting Indian words is simply all it is: Word Juggling. I see devotees trying to prove the existence of flying swan airplanes and monkey and bear armies helping rama build a bridge from India to lanka all the time by posting links to conspiracy alien websites and other bullshit. All laughable and ultimately sad.

There is not even any proof of a Kurukstera war. No proof of any major kingdom in Dwarka or any birthplace of the chaitanya saint. NONE. Does it stop them from trying to by hook or crook show some “science” behind it? No. They will try till krishnas cows come home.

The reality is that SIF and Gabbard et al are a result of a westernization of hinduism. In Many ways their final culmination. Chaitanya vaishnavism had NOTHING to do with politics, nothing to do with yoga asanas, nothing to do with temple building, varnashrama, or even philosophical preaching. At its fundamental core, at best, was a movement related and emerging from Bengal and it’s socio-religious dynamic. Kirtan did not take off during chaitanyas time beyond Bengal. Bhaktisiddhnata and his fathers contribution to modern Gaidiya Vaishnvaism was the introduction of Brahmanism, Brahmin and Sanyasi diksha, and otherwise speculative attempts at making Gaudiya Vaishnavism relevant as a modern day cult of social brotherhood. And even in that it had and has failed. No modern day krishna devotee practices Gaudiya Vaishnvavism as proposed by Bhaktisiddhanta. Even ISKCON has liquified into nothing more than a temple building church. It’s founders hopes for the movement largely ignored and swept under the rug of “time, place, and circumstance”.

So what do we do with all of that? Running is a start.

Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: May 27, 2023 03:36AM

Religious movements are created all the time. Some gain momentum, some attract only a few followers then dwindle and die. Some are riddled with hypocrisy and corruption, some hide it well, and some are otherwise benign with simple teachings of brotherhood and communal service/kindness.

We don't know much of anything substantial about Chaitanya. The supposed and claimed scholar left NO WRITTEN VERIFIABLE WORK. None. So all we have is secondhand "stories" that read like exaggerated fairy tales.

We have little to no info about the so-called maha-mantra. Other than a single questionable (only Gaudiya Vaishnavas really accept or know about this scripture) text, there is no mention of Kirtan being a yuga dharma in the gita, or any authentic vedic text. Is ritual chanting a part of religious culture in general, absolutely! But nowhere is it explicitly mentioned that the Hare Krishna/Hare Rama mantra is a "maha-mantra" any more than there are many "maha-mantras" in assorted scriptures. There are shaivite mahamantras, vishnu mahamantras, ganesh and sri laxmi mahamantras etc etc... Too many to count. AND, many of those mahamantars have substantial mention in many verified scriptures. To be "absolutist" and factually "vedic" mantra chanting was the domain of the priests and upper castes. In fact women were not allowed to hear or chant the mantras traditionally. Vedically, as far as true aryan culture from which these myths and literature came from made zero claims of Krishna being a top diety, nor vishnu nor shiva. At best, brahman is loosely and doubtfully espoused as a primordial eternal and all-encompassing force. The rig vedas most famous verses even doubt if what they state is factual:

“Who really knows, and who can swear,
How creation came, when or where!
Even gods came after creation's day,
Who really knows and who can truly say,
When and how did creation start?
Did He do it? Or did He not?
Only He, up there, knows, maybe;
Or perhaps, not even He.”

The so-called "brahma Samhita" is a questionable text that was likely written by Gaudiyas to bolster their claims of superiority. As were other supplemental texts that only gaudiyas accept as authentic and will quote exclusively and adnaseum to support the idea of chaitanya saint being a avatar incarnation of a little-known puranic goddess names radha and the playboy cowherd god krishna. Not to mention, the so-called brahman samhita is not mentioned in ANY other scriptures. AND, all that is claimed to be found is the 5th chapter. Who knows what the rest of it said. I f one follows the general train of thought of most so-called vedic/upananshadic/puranic works, the samhita may very well have changed it's tune mid-way and given an entirely different conclusion in the end... who knows? Maybe not even he...

The purnaic evolution of the krishna god is an amalgamation of divinities both greek, persian and Indian to construct an ideal deity. No vedic text even mentions him once. None of the 4 vedas state anything about radha or krishna. Largely the vedas are worldly texts that are telling of human desire and the ritual habits of a pastoral peoples priestly caste. At best a pegan faith with anthropomorphic nature deities found in most ancient religions cultures. Later, to try to create a chain of authenticity, such deities were woven into Puranic tales to create a loose connection to so-called "vedic" knowledge. Which, to this day is difficult to really explain what that really is.

Bhaktivinode created a patriarchal sampradaya when his son became the sole heir to the one true "gauduya" line (and never let anyone forget it). To bolster this, they had visions and dreams to dictate new areas of Yogapitha and demeaned and insulted any baba and sadhu that disagreed with them—instructing their followers to keep away from all other Gaudiya groups. Even Bhaktisiddhnatas own brother did not agree with much of his "siddhanta".

Name one text that you have read of Bhaktisiddhantas that is intelligible. Mostly it is mindless neo-scholarly mumbo-jumbo he is making up on the spot. Same for his father. They cherry-pick a verse here and a verse there and mostly use scriptures only recognized by their own cult. and while there is absolutely no question they believe it and are 100% devoted to it, it does not negate the reality that they made it up and based it on obviously questionable ideology...

Hinduism, as a faith grew to such proportions because the fundamental quality of vedic teachings in early Upanishads, was focused on Brhaman, the universal, all-pervading conscious energy that is all we perceive. Other concepts like karma and reincarnation were borrowed and amalgamated and pretty much taught in all major eastern schools. If you want to get technical pretty much all world religions believe in a version of karma theory, and reincarnation is taught in both theistic and atheist schools as an idea of transformation of forms both physical and subtle.

Bhaktivedanta was a hardline literalist in his conception of vedic and puranic ideology. He literally thought krishna was a blue god who held a flute, liked cows and wore yellow on a daily basis. These things were not just symbolic ideation to help in formalizing a meditation on brahman or how these idols and gods were used by Upanashadic thinkers as mental talismans and focal points to train the mind.

Bhaktivedanta's ultra-literal translations of the bhagavata and other puranic and upanashadic works is at times so naive and laughable it hurts that so many fell so hard for it. But then again, it was the 60s, and drugs had done a number on many hippie brains.

Bhaktivedanta mostly led his cult with fear. Look at the images he had his artists paint for his books of so-called hellish planets and Narasimha tearing intestines from HIrnayakashipu. He taught a philosophy on the sole premise that we should chant a mantra with faith all things will fall into place. I am not sure if you have met a single devotee that has worked out for at face value, advanced or neophyte alike.

While dancing in the street chanting is largely harmless and may be a happy activity, preaching and proselytizing as a religious practice lacks in taste and is invasive, arrogant and exhibiting of the lack of faith people actually have in their god. Any god who requires that people shave their heads, wear robes and chant like fools in the street is surely making a mockery of humankind.

Spirituality is a personal practice. "Divinity" (or an inherent sense of wonder and mystery) exhibits itself in ones life in some personal way that is unique to each of us. A god that asks for uniform expression of worship from all followers is a human invention for mass control. A true opiate for the people. Inducing docile thinking and rote behavior and, well, stupidity, lack of critical thinking and naivety. Basically making sheep of men. Hence it's so easy to tell a bunch of devotees to walk around a tulsi plant multiple times or chant repeatedly and mindlessly on beads to finish their "rounds" without anyone stopping and asking why. If a mantra is so powerful and like god, why does one have to repeat it a million times to hopefully see some unmeasurable benefit?

If karma and sukriti dictates if one comes to "god" in the human form, then isn't it a bit odd that we need to preach, host public kirtans and distribute books that end up in the trash? If a person is not ready karmically for receiving a certain knowledge what are we wasting our breath for? again, it's a sign of a lack of faith in their own god to even make an attempt to preach as it goes against their own beliefs about karma, sukriti and so on.

On top of that, Kirtan and other invasive preaching tactics also elicit a negative and "offensive" result as most people approached by Hare Krishnas in these ways recoil and have the immediate thought "Go away you idiot". So in that sense, they are inviting blasphemy and offenses. There is a reason that for most of history, so-called spirituality was practiced privately and in forests and with small groups of very dedicated practitioners.

And a devotee cannot say that chanting publically is "purifying" the general public when their own scriptures state that unless one hears the name of god from the lips of a pure devotee it has no effect. That unless one chant free of offenses it has no effect. This is in their own text. So how can something have no effect and at the same time be the prime spiritual activity for the age??? Bit this is simply one of a litany of contradictions in the cult. Siddhanta saraswati said that god does not even accept service from someone who is not chanting 64 rounds. I don't think Butler or his followers have ever chanted 64 rounds in their entire life. The point is, this so-called all-merciful process and unconditional love is actually very conditional. It requires 64 rounds, avoiding 10 offenses, a pure devotee guru (no way of really gauging who is a pure devotee and what that even actually means in a practical and observable sense), etc etc. Not to mention that Bhaktivinode plainly calls all those who worship god in a mood lower than that of a manjari cowherd girl is an "Ass-like_ devotee. This is in his books. I have posted this here and links to it before if you want to rummage through old posts. In fact, most of the lingo used by these "top" acharyas about other Vaishnava groups is generally derogatory and dismissive of their faith and practices. But then all of a sudden hey somehow try to attract new-comers by stating it is a "non-sectarian"?Sanatana Dharma available to all irrespective of their conception of god. But we all know this is just a disingenuous preaching method. And one you are in the cult, nothing could be further from the truth. don't believe me? Try to go into a SIF center and start a kirtan chanting the holy names of Allah and Ra and Zeus. Good luck with that...

I recall in these cults it was always the "preachers" that got a lot of attention and praise. But the fact is that we know from a psychological perspective that many people are introverts and the last thing they feel naturally compelled to do is "preach" and bounce around in public singing off-key. Never mind the fact that somehow preachers are immediately elevated to the level of "pure" and treated in the cult as celebrities. The reality is that I can give a very compelling lecture on any number of krishna conscious topics with little to no belief in the actual words coming out of my mouth. So preaching and preachers, as I have seen with my own eyes, are not generally the shining examples of what they propose and speak of anyway. Take Bhaktisiddhanta. Did he cross the seas by boat and airplane by sky to give the message of Chaitanya to the rest of the world? No. You know what stopped him? Naive ideas and beliefs. Fears really. He was a big proponent and believer in astrology for example. A totally bullshit "science" that dictated whether he should travel by car or not that day. All these clowns believed in astrology and had their "charts" done. And as you can imagine, they were always eager to tell everyone what "elevated" house or planet they were born under. Bollocks.

In ISKCON there is a tradition to praise the big money collectors after Artik publically on the loudspeaker. Everyone yells "Jai!!!". In many of these cults, at least the ones I was in, including SIF, the big donators and money makers are the ones given the most praise and attention and considered "important". This is not an exaggeration, it's a fact. Why is one praised for such things but no one is praised for cleaning a toilet? Is there such duality in measuring of "service" and position that people have to vie for the ever-highest ideal? Why are the gopis dearer to krishna than say a blade of grass? Does god discriminate so much? Sounds like a human behavior. My point is that much ado is made of gopi bhava in the gaudiya siddha pranali cult of bhaktisiddhanta, yet no one ever asks why, ironically, the most appealing relation with god is based on sexual tension. Could it be that this is what fascinates the human mind the most due to biological and evolutionary impulses? Hence it makes for a cool focal talisman for believers. Who doesn't want their god to be a Playboy sexy womanizer?

Bhaktivedanta always favored those who were giving the most money and making converts. The list goes on. All modern krishna cults center around the ability to start new temples, create more converts and give off the vibe of opulence. Because, Bhagavan, you know...

Butler kept people close to him and posted them as being pure devotees or important if they gave money, promoted a political agenda that bolstered his ideology and were natural-born preachers. Tusta, Katyayani, Acharya das, Bhalakilya, Vishnu das etc. And many others were given much accolades mostly related to running successful businesses for butler or preaching. Anyone who tried to also preach or surpass them in any way do to natural talent or spiritual verve, was typically called out as "arrogant" and "trying to be guru" (only so many pure devotees allowed). There is only so much room for positions of power. So in a cult where everyone can supposedly be "guru", actually we prefer that there is less gurus and more followers.

Most devotees living in a temple/ashram/community are essentially freeloaders. They don't have any viable skills except moving their mouth to chant and repeating some crap they read in a book. No original thought and life skills. Without the community, they are no better than the schmuck on welfare praising jesus every minute.

The mechanism of authority in so-called spiritual matters is rarely subject to any scrutiny as the act alone of doubting/being skeptical or questioning such things is deemed offensive, arrogant and blasphemous. So most nod their heads in agreement. First, the idea of being a soul and karma and reincarnation sounds plausible and like a cool concept. Before you know it you're bowing to the guy who told you this and giving him money and praise. Then you wake up one day believing in elephant-headed gods, blue gods and hoping that when you die you will wake up in krishna loka as a cowherd girl...

I'm not judging belief. I am observing the mechanisms at work and the dynamics in these groups. Hare krshna as a religious movement is largely undergone a pop-cultural transformation and is a funny relic of the 60s. Much like Mormonism in terms of contemporary religious ideologies, it's generally harmless. I think the early days of cults are the hardest. Now the average hare krishna is a pot smoking vegan who goes to kirtan and does yoga asanas. But it's not a rigorous spiritual practice by any stretch. and thank goodness, cause you really have to be a lunatic to go fully down the rabbit hole of it all.

On his deathbed, Bhaktivedanta claimed he was poisoned. He was afraid of death and confused and no different than any number of other people who are dying. Don't believe me? Watch the video, it's online.

Bhaktisiddhanta's last words towards the end of his life warned of association with other groups besides his Gaudiya Math. He also claimed that "Bhagavan will not accept anything that is offered by a person who doesn't chant Harinam one-hundred thousand times daily (1 lakh of names)."... If that's the case I think we can comfortably say that no modern-day hare krishna devotee is performing real service. Or it's revealing of the level of fanatic religious idiocy of one man.

Now, don't get me wrong, the ideology espoused by these gurus was idealistic. They thought that their ideas would result in some mass conversion of humanity to a loving brotherhood of everyone doing the same thing. They obviously lacked any naturistic observation of history and nature, as anyone can see that this is simply not how anything came to be in the world, including India and its spiritual systems. Variety is the spice of life. Even in matters of spiritual exploration, one cannot simply do one thing forever and be satisfied. The very nature of the mind is that it fatigues with repetition.

One thing that is of interest to me as of late is the topic of transcendentalism. It was an american philosophical movement in the 1800 that was spawned in part by philosophical WESTERN research of the Upanishads. The 4 original vedas were largley unintelligabel and still are. Thier intent/goal/message remains a mystery even to India's greatest scholars.

What's interesting is that Bhaktisiddhnatas and his father's movements leaned heavily on the western transcendentalism that was no doubt making it's way to and fro from Inida ot the west. It allowed a lot of hocus Pocus and mumbo jumbo ideas to be quickly swept under the generic umbrella term "Transcendental", with little to no need to explain what made something "transcendental". We use terms like this all the time. Language in general has given man the ability to spread ideas quickly and often times these ideas become ritualized in language with no real explanation given after the fact.

Growing up in SIF we heard this term all the time. If something was hard to swallow or understand for us, it was "Transcendental". If it was supposedly really amazing and beneficial, it was "transcendental". Everything basically becomes transcendental. Can't understand what the guru is saying or doing? Well, it's transcendental!

Anyway, you can read about it more if you like, but it is amazing how assorted philosophical and spiritual movements can change the way we speak about otherwise ethereal and highly subjective topics like "spirituality", which is another one of those terms we bat around with zero agreed upon definition—especially in "spiritual" circles.

Cults rely HEAVILY on linguistic nuances like this. They adopt certain ways of speaking and assorted phrases and terms that often go well over everyone's head and have the effect of, "Well it must be true!", simply because we don't understand it. And since we are told we are so low, fallen and stupid, and don't know what is in our best interest, we simply must have faith that by doing XYZ, some amazing thing will happen. When it never does, we again look at ourselves as the fault, when in fact, sometimes, it is the process that sucks or is otherwise useless.

I'm not saying that something complex and beyond our understanding exists that may or may not be worthy of further exploration or interest. However, we often spend a lot of time on so-called spiritual journeys and emotions and visions without really stopping and asking what exactly the purpose is. At its best, fervent spirituality is an elitist luxury as it has always been of a certain class of people who society supports based on some naive idea that something good will come of it. We support "mystics", "healers" and anyone who is willing to tell us that there is more to the puzzle than meets the eye. Alas, no one has shown that this is the case. Millions of years later and we still know jack shit what happens after death and what is beyond this domain. Sounds like "god" is telling you "this is it guys!", and isn't it amazing as it is? We always want more and think there is some "other". But history and time has show the proof is in the pudding. And while society builds and creates all manner of faiths and idealisms, the truth is staring us right in the face: We are here to make what we want of this thing called life. No one is the wiser. I can guarantee it.

I've always said, it may be cool to think of oneself as a "spirit soul" in a body and it may even have its uses in terms of psychology or other mindfulness practices, but as a general rule it's irrational to live with that as a constantly acknowledged fact. It's actually impossible. Same goes for chanting many rounds or worshipping statues and reading fairy tales about gods and demons. It may have some therapeutic value to an extent. Yet, the fact remains that life goes on, we will die and no one really knows what happens next.

While unabashed materialism is rarely the answer to a lack of religious belief, I can assure you, abandoning spiritual pursuits in exchange for real-world experiences is immensely more rewarding, less stressful and realistic. I need not ponder if god is blue or pink or what my role in his "eternal" pastimes will be since that is something that is simply not knowable. Anyone who claims that they do know or have seen that is full of shit, no matter how you slice it. The senses are either imperfect and unable to conceive and realize the so-called transcendent aspect of reality or they are. If they are it is not transcendent. If it is not knowable to the human brain and senses, then we need to consider it any more than a fart in the wind. As the saying goes, if we are made in the image of god, then why are we not invisible?

So chant and be happy if that's your cup of tea, but do know that that is NOT AT ALL WHAT this cult is about. The chanting part is one small part. Then there is a host of other ideas, rituals and beliefs you must entertain to call yourself a real gaiudiya vaishnava, and my question to you is: Is it worth it? Do you really believe some god is going to pop out of a pillar to save your ass on a bad day? Let's get real...

Truthwins—700+ people have viewed the ISKCON Pedophilia ring post. At least 50% are hare krishnas in complete denial, making excuses for Bhaktivedanta and his appointed goon squad. The sad part is this is FAR from us hearing the end of it. A fanatical religious society like this will always find a way to justify, make excuses and never really change anything.

Just because Bhaktivedanta said a few smart things does not negate the overwhelming weight of the idiotic things he said, believed in, and promoted (milk with salt causes leprosy, one of my all-time favorites).

Bhaktisiddhnata and his father were self-righteous clowns writing volumes of books about literally nothing. Fluff. Empty-minded bullshit that is really hard to come by even in bad writing. And the sad part is that it's considered offensive to "edit" and "alter" any of their works to make them mildly intelligible, so, there they remain, as sentimental relics of a made-up 500-year-old religious offshoot that Vaishnavism as a whole is largely embarrassed to be associated with. Ever read Bhaktivedant's unedited" writing...?

In fact the gaudiya tradition as a whole has a bad habit of claiming "scholarly" personages, from Chaitanya to Bhaktisiddhanta, with literally zero proof of any scholarly works available for study. Bhaktisiddhanta's most ambitious writing reeks so hard of self-riotous arrogance that it's hard to read even a few pages without stiffening up in discomfort. Bhaktivinode had to forcefully submit his Chaitanya biography to western universities to even be included in their repertoire of hindu studies texts. Many, if not all scholarly works on chaitabnya vaishnavism paint the same general picture: A faction sect/cult of chanting and dancing arose much around the same time in Bengal as Islamic devotional chanting cults. Chaitanya is written about in a mythological writing style in the only few books available about his so-called life. Bold calims are made about his divinity and no single text even within these central cult scriptures really explicitly mentions the chanting of the hare krishna mantra. The popularity of said mantra was largely made in the 60s by Bhaktivedanta and his modern day revivalist gaudiya vaishnav cult. Moral of the story? There is literally nothing of scholarly import written about the renneissance saint known mostly within Bengal. No local government records, nothing of major substance to verify that it was anything more than a movement much of the same impact and depth as Mormonism. In fact, we know more real information about Joseph Smith and even christian "saints" of the era of chaitanya than we do about supposedly "god himself" appearing on earth some 525 years ago... I thought "bhagavan" means full of all ooppulances, including fame. Well, not many people really knew about the guy during his brief life. The two or three books written about him can't even quite agree how he died! His followers made it sound like they were keeping tabs on everything he did, yet somehow everyone's MIA when the great saint is dying?

No guru or society has the ability to actually tend to the care and welfare of its followers/disciples. It's impossible. In traditional ancient India, a guru/disciple relationship was NEVER institutionalized. A guru took on few if any disciples and spoke to very small groups of real seekers. Not some yahoo who is interested in yoga stretches and jumping around like a lunatic in Kirtans. There is no choice for such modern-day religious offshoots of vedic ideology to simply turn into just another church where you go on Sunday, pray and "wipe" your sins and then go back out into the "real world" of so-called maya and rinse and repeat.

Children (eventually adults) usually suffer the most and are the biggest risk of the ideologies of these groups and gurus since they never will question it all. That is another thing you will not find in ancient Indian spiritual traditions: Kids being sent off to schools halfway across the globe away from their parents. Gurukula was a Brahminical practice for those born into the priestly caste. Basically, the kids grew up in a social structure that had very vivid caste divisions and a child born into a brahmin caste was sent to such a school.

Prabhupadas' naive ideology of trying to adopt an archaic medieval varnashrama system in a Western mind/society was a brutal reflection of his shortsightedness as a religious leader. Any psychologist would have seen where that would lead eventually. Needless to say many modern Hare Krishnas are quick to rebuttal and state that "today's hare krishnas are normal members of society who don't do anything culty"... give me a fucking break. I can smell a hare krishna from a mile away with their little bead bag and pointer finger popping out. Three strands of wood beads around their neck and jaganatha bumper sticker. They're just better at hiding all the culty stuff and buttering it over as "yoga" and "mindfulness" and "Hinduism" and "Sanatana dharma", my ass.

You don't put a bunch of boys in a school together in mid-puberty and a bunch of unqualified teachers and formerly homosexual "sanyasi" gurus or ex-druggy hippies and expect a transcendental miracle to happen cause you know, the holy name and guru/scriptures will "do the rest" of the magic... That is called naive, shortsighted, and for lack of better words, dumb. It was Bhaktivednata's idea. His followers ate up his opinion and word without question and still do. They will never make a change or admit that the founder's ideas were not all they were cracked up to be. It's against the very foundation of their ideology to do so. All that will happen is the same thing that happens with all fundamentalist traditions: People break off and start their own variations and variants of it. Those then in turn suffer from their natural human failings and claim that it's because of XYZ, never the teachings, philosophy, or founders. That is always held as perfect. Yet, no one ever notices that the very scriptures and founders words support much of the inevitable issues that arise.


Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: May 27, 2023 03:40AM

On dreams about the cult:

Yes, I too occasionally dream abotu the cult. Mostly gurukula and beig stuck there. That is literally the dream. I canot leave or I have returned and am panicing that I cannot leave, miss my family etc. Never pleasant. Otherwise, I do not dream about the anything specific about this cult.

My personal attempts here are not a result of not being able to let go of this cult. I am here to hopefully she light on how utterly redicuous they are, rthe philosphy is and the practices, beliefs and ideology can be. With he sole hope of others readign it and tryingt to get out.

I do not care if many devotees "like" being devotees or if there is some for whome it works and makes them "happy". That's not my "target audience" so-to-speak. I am speaking to those who still have a brain and have doubts and questions that have not been answered byt he cult and have seen ample proof that it is not what i seems to be. It is not just about "chant and be happy". Tha there is a rabbit hole and it goes deep and once you cross that threshold it becomes very difficult to use critical thinking and see things with an objective eye.

I'm here for the krishna kids that grew up in this and the folks that have seen stuff but fear speaking out because they literally believe in yamaraj and narashingha dev ripping them up or that they will be all of a sudden making some sort of "elephant offece" etc etc. I'm here to say I have been speaking out against these groups for years and I've not had anything but a rich, fullfilling and wonderful life that I have zero regrets about and feel grateful for.

Dreams are great. It's an amazing thing to dream something and have it be so vivid and real to us. However, to base ones decisions or put much weight into what dreams might mean or symbolize is as beneficial as wondering what hidden meaning is in an episode of spunge bob.

About ekadasi and ritualism in the hare krishna:

Prior to the agricultural revolution some 10-12K years ago, humans foraged seasonal fruit and tubers and primarily hunted. You know, survival. When man started to modify and have control over the production of crops and store grains, he was finally able to stop toiling and sit on his laurels and make up religions and philosophies as he put to work his subjugated slaves.

In such a society, to create hierarchical divisions and lower and higher castes, such brahmins would create ritualistic distinctions that had a direct impact on the lower castes to continue the divisions of "purity". To do so, they created rituals where the lower castes had no choice, due to their subjugation and poor living conditions to eat some type of grain all year around just to survive. While the brahmins had ample milk, likely even meat from cattle and excess grain they had full control over. Making special days of observing avoidance of certain food groups that the lower case had no way of knowing about, or even real choice to give up eating considering by then society was completely agrarian and relied heavily on grain, allowed the higher caste to continue the narrative that such "lower" castes did not observe such and such ritual and so they remained impure.

There is no scientific logic otherwise that can be shown, let alone a karmic correlation to killing your own mother or teacher because you ate barley and rice on a made up astrological "holy day".

Fasting and avoidance of certain food groups have only one scientific value: They mimiced ancestral access to seasonal supply of certain food groups so they lkley had some evolutionary value in stimulating biological responses and healing processes. also, grain in those days was kept in stone/clay and developed mold. It could be very well that it took a certain amount of days for mold to develop on grains and so cycles/rituals were created to clear out old moldy grain and make room for new harvests.

In either case, no fucking demon or sins of the entire world are "taking shelter" in a rice grain on Ekadasi and no blue 4-armed god could care less if you ate a cornflake.

Aside from this, yes, fasting and takign a break from eating can be used as a way to focus more fo your mental energy on meditating on your god of choice, giving your body a break from digestion and controlling your senses if you are a total fat-ass brahmin who lives off ghee and chapatis.

There is no way whatsoever to control for or have an accurate idea of a so-called ekadasi day based on bullshit astrology calculations. Butler being reminded about ekadasi is like a tax accountant needing a reminder of tax season. He is the equivalent of the spoiled brahmin taking advantage of lower castes. His rule books (kitchen rules or how to wash his shitstain undies) are the equivalent of bahmins making up their rules that keep everyone else "impure". If you make enough rules, there is always one bound to be broken. And if the price of breaking a rule like eating a grain of rice on ekadasi is akin to killing your mama, well fuck me, we're pretty screwed.

In the cult I was chastised about the size of my sikha, what kind of neck beads I wore, how many times I wrapped the aroudn my neck (Gaudiya Vaishnavas wrap neck beads 3 times around the neck and they must wear them—not wearing them is like being naked apparently). If you brahmin thread touches your dick while you are showering by accident you must break it with a mantra and apply a brand new thread. Tilak is applied to 12 areas of the body and a mantra is to be recited for every application. All food must be offered to god with a prayer. Never mind that god could care less about your bag of Doritos.

The basic idea of modern day krishna rhetoric is that one "never forget krishna and always remeber him". MOst of these cults do not stress or even teach any more esoteric aspects of the ideology, because, for lack of better words, it sounds silly and is offputting. So now they focus on just telling people about the gita (not a hard sell philosophically), and chanting a bit and eating some food.

There is zero evidence to suggest that any sort of "yuga" cycle exists. If anything, we have ample proof that some 3 million years ago a few species of apes adapted to their surroundings and started to walk upright and eat lots of meat (mammoths and large ancient cattle were hunted to near extiction by early humans). Another million years they discovered some basic tools to improve their chance of survival and eventually, through brutal and horrid circumstances, they killed and maimed their way to modern man. No, there was no amazing ancient civilizations with elaborate "vedic" cities. The closest we have to anything "amazing" was primitive structures like pyramids and Harappan towns with simple plumbing and animal husbandry. Life was brutal, people were brutal to each other, and eventually, kingdoms and cities arose that were, you guessed it, mostly brutal. We are barely now, in the last 200 years, seeing some effort towards a unified and equal system of democratic rule, capitalism that allows those who work hard to excel, succeed and have autonomy and control. And while these modern advances have not been kind to all and we certainly have a vastly larger population, the average human lifespan has increased, access to basic systems of welfare and care are present in most societies and religion no longer dictates human behavior nearly to the degree it had for thousands of years. Bravo to us. Now that astroid can come and wipe us out. We did what evolution set out to do with us...

Think about it: Harrappan, Mesopotamia and Egypt barely had regular use of the wheel. Fire was harnessed by early humans and revolutionized control over their environment and life. As we pass through the stone age, bronze age, iron age into contemprary society we have visible imprvements to the conditions of human life. The vedas don't make any mention of dinosaurs and pre-human existence. One can visiby see things mentioned in the Puranas both linguistically and historically that date their composition to no earlier than the last 2-3000 years. Old, yes, but hardly unique in the development of human civilizations throught the world that all branched out of africa. That's the hard science we have right now. Now Ramachandra with monkey armies and 10-headed demons. Not even a shred of evidence of a large scale war in the so-called kurukstetra are.

Honeslty we do not even have actual proof of any claims of the hare krishnas. I hate to say it, even down tot he so-called notion that consciousness is anythign more than the product of complex evolutionary brain adapatations. And while as ex-devotees we have develped a lingusitic "cringe" response to the word "material world" and "materialism". We are basically that: Physical beings having a complex brain and often overthinking the mechanics of our existence. This has often come with a price: Anxiety, depression, over-indulgence, desire for control/power etc. But alas, this is our reality. Nothing before or after this reality is a gaurantee. No one can assure you of anything more than this very moment you are having. A very material, materialistic, self-involved, human moment.

So yeah, Butler sitting in his "bhajan kutir" served hand and foot for over 40 years by weak, docile humans is not on my list of a successful outcome of human achievements. All I see is archaic systems of control at work for the mental satisfaction of one bozo.

Hare krishna parents who tell their kids that their "goal" in life is to serve Butler and "please" him and serve some fantasy blue god up there in cow-land goloka is their primary directive are literally hacking their kids at the knees. They are spilling mental sewage into their still-forming brains and handicapping them. Way to go!

Nowadays devotees try to appeal to reason and sense by naming their cult the Science of Identity and the "science of krishna consciouness". There is nothing in these cults that has been studied, verified or any sort of scientific procedure, double-blind studies or otherwise done to show that eating grains on Ekadasi is doing anything to the human brain, body, mind etc. No mass study of chanters of assorted mantras has ever shown that someone's overall quality of life, mental state etc has improved by any significant amount beyond that of listening to some pleasing piece of music you enjoy, reading a book or goign for a run...

So, Run instead! You have evolved to run (humans are the prime apex endurance animal on earth—our bodies literally adapted and evolved to be efficient hunters), not sit and rub little wooden beads for hours or eat rabbit food. You don't have hair on your head so you can shave it off and leave a little tail on the back of your head and look like a fool (just wait for nature to make you bald naturally!). You did not invent all manner of instruments, styles of music and amazing literature so you can read one book with one message, chant only one type of song and bow to one guy expecting a miracle to happen...

All glories to running! ki jai!!!!

Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: May 31, 2023 02:13AM

Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: May 31, 2023 03:58AM


> []

Interesting text. It overlooks, however, the fact that British culture is a combination of Romanized Normans and Celts, said to have come from the barrow region in southern Germany between the Bohemian Forest and the Rhine. Celtic society consisted of three strata (priests, warriors and farmers) - so there were no sudras and chandals here. Interestingly, illegitimate children were looked after by the whole tribe as children of divine or royal origin - as opposed to varna-sankara - undesirable population.

> []


Of the pantheon, Ram and Sita will take front stage as the ideal for men and women respectively. Krishna will continue to be the overarching source of inspiration for Hindus through the Bhagavad Gita, but will recede somewhat as the role model for the average Hindu, reflecting the pronounced puritanism that can be observed in urban India today.

This is an interesting aspect. Rama and Sita. Not Krishna and Radha. Especially when Radha in earthly Vrindavan was married to a eunuch supposedly Abhiman. Although she was actually supposed to be Krishna's wife married in a secret swap.

Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: May 31, 2023 04:14AM

> Butler kept people close to him and posted them as
> being pure devotees or important if they gave
> money, promoted a political agenda that bolstered
> his ideology and were natural-born preachers.

As can be read in Hari-Bhakti-Vilasa, Vishnu does not accept money.

> Prabhupadas' naive ideology of trying to adopt an
> archaic medieval varnashrama system in a Western
> mind/society was a brutal reflection of his
> shortsightedness as a religious leader. Any
> psychologist would have seen where that would lead
> eventually. Needless to say many modern Hare
> Krishnas are quick to rebuttal and state that
> "today's hare krishnas are normal members of
> society who don't do anything culty"... give me a
> fucking break. I can smell a hare krishna from a
> mile away with their little bead bag and pointer
> finger popping out. Three strands of wood beads
> around their neck and jaganatha bumper sticker.
> They're just better at hiding all the culty stuff
> and buttering it over as "yoga" and "mindfulness"
> and "Hinduism" and "Sanatana dharma", my ass.

Varnaasrama is interesting because of its psychological characteristics and tendencies. The modern world is obviously very diverse when it comes to professional qualifications. Kshatris can be divided into the police, the army (types of troops and armed forces, specializations), border guards, customs guards, etc., civil and military intelligence services. Brahmins for doctors, engineers, etc.

Genetically, humans are chimeras. From the varnaasrama point of view, such vajsis were supposed to have business tendencies but to look after animals. So acting for profit, but still empathy for animals. On the other hand, today the sudras - workers are very skilled.

Nevertheless, the breakdown by trends or a combination of them - a conglomerate is an interesting and valuable thing.

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