Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know that it is really tough to swallow red
> pills because going down the rabbit hole,
> connecting dots, critical thinking are very “life”
> shattering.


It requires a lot of courage to jump out of a speeding train. But with each bad fruit - which for the serious observer does not come from a frivolous attitude towards the principles of religion but from the very principles of the cult rules - it becomes easier.


> I truly get why some put up with the fear, misery,
> control, fatigue... to stay.

Effects of persuasion, manipulation etc. Answers to fundamental safety needs - death insurance, simple answers to push the pushchair of your life. To the next garbage can.

> But blind faith does not satisfy me anymore.

Blind faith without philosophy is fanaticism:

[en.wikipedia.org])

Quote

Cenobites were once human, having transformed to their current state in their pursuit of gratification.[3] Cenobites are so removed from their former humanity and so dedicated to exploring physical experience that they no longer distinguish between pleasurable sensations and pain.

> I would gladly try to forgive butler and his
> minions if they publicly admit what a bunch of
> posers, liars, misled sheep they are.

When the construction and expansion of the sangha results from creation and persuasion, admitting takes its meaning from the basic tool ...

> Unconditional love, forgiveness are not easily
> achieved.

What is love and what is unconditional love in the material dimension - full of hard dependencies.
Interesting is the story of the king in Markandeya Purana, who committed many pious deeds, made mistakes and went to hell. His presence in hell made him succumb to sinners because of his piety. He decided to cede his merits towards the punishment of sinners. As far as I remember, the demigods and the yamaduts praised this act very much, saying that it showed even more his glory - however, in the scale of the universe, this act was of no great importance.


> Reality can be a nightmare but it is best to face
> a nightmare than to be a puppet in the westworld
> dream of a crazy guru.

That's the point. Face reality. Face Absoluth Truth whatever it is - in accordance with the sense of principles, values etc. Regardless of the cost. Difficult proposition.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2021 06:52AM by Culthusiast.

An example of a complete non-realistic teachings (bull-shit) of the great but false pseudo guru Johnny Baldwin Midgett aka Balakhilya das, who in his lectures in Poland or in Ukraine, insistently argued that nowadays we have all the facilities to "please our senses". Midgett's pseudo guru, who lives in a hacienda in Hawaii and when there is no electricity and water, it is a tragedy that makes him a hero. A great false guru with his companionship who have been accused of financial scams in India, Indonesia and the Philippines.

[www.newsweek.pl]

Quote

He explains that while the scale of poverty in Poland was decreasing by 2018, it is not decreasing now, on the contrary. Last year, 1.6 million people lived in extreme poverty, now 400,000 more. Extreme poverty means living for around 600 zlotys a month, which is an average of 20 zlotys a day. However, after paying the fees, some people have no more than 4 zlotys per day for food. Apart from this group, which lives in existential threat, there is a group of as many as 15 million Polish women and Poles who live in poverty: they can afford to buy groceries, but very often they cannot afford new shoes or a jacket, buy new furniture or replace the washing machine, when tries to break down.

600 zlotys a month is 147,12 dollars a month.

Fuck you Midgett, deceitful trickster, false guru. Fuck Tibby.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2021 01:11AM by Culthusiast.

Culthusiast,

That is the basic formula. This cult has always been about the exaggeration of facts, half-truths and disingenuous talking points that don't in fact reflect what they are about at all.

Some claims they make that don't add up at all:

1. The religion is over 5000 years old. Not true even remotely. Chaitanya Vaishnavism accepts Chaitanya as an avatar of vishnu/krishna based on zero verifiable scriptural references. At best the most of what is considered the hare Krishna faith these days is about 500-1500 years old.

2. Chanting the Hare Krishna Mantra is an ancient practice. Not true. The mantra is barely mentioned in one very very questionable Upanishad of more recent compositions.

3. Their core scriptures like Gita do not mention anywhere the chanting of the so-called maha-mantra or any reference to their major practices and deities. Bhagavtama has no mention of Radha and the goddess is portrayed as Krishna's aunt in most scriptures/poetic works that have been composed no earlier than 500-1200-1500 years ago. What the scriupture does dwell on is the superiority of brahmins, castism, violence in the name of dharma and superstitions ideas sprinkled with some truth nuggets, which I would hope would be there consoderting people vouch for it being a book of "wisodm".

4. The founder of the modern-day Hare Krishna, Bhaktivedanta swami suggests his religion is universal and claims that anyone who worships whatever god they believe in and practices their religion "perfectly" is ultimately going to achieve the perfection of human life. Yet, this rhetoric is not true. The Gaudiya's, including Bhaktivedanta are firm in their assertion that their specific god is the topmost and only worshippable god if one wants perfection. Thus his religion is sectarian and is very much mythologically and philosophically centered on the Indian Hindu Vaishnava deity. Yet to appeal to public sentiment and attract followers they will say anything to make it sound
"universal". I'd like to see a "devotee" who chants Allah Allah Allah or Jesus Jesus Jesus Christ Christ Christ.

5. The religion is touted as "equal" and promotes unity, yet the fact is that women and men are not viewed as equal (never mind Prabhupadas abhorrent comments on women, black people and Butlers rants against Homosexuals and other minorities). The Swami has made that clear in many lectures and their own scriptures make it very clear in many passages how they view women as lesser than. What to speak of Bhaktisiddhanta establishing, of all things, Brahmin initiation. Traditionally bhakti movements arose as a protest against Brahmanism and even Chaitanya says in his prayers, "I am not a brahmin etc etc" yet somehow they felt it necessary to add this level of hierarchy, what to speak of Sanyasi diksha.

6. They promote the idea of a soul and shun body-centric identification while very much focusing on externals: Men women, how people dress (saris/dhotis etc), the fact that not until very recently not a single contemporary image of Butler was circulating and ISKCON temples all feature an anatomically correct plastic replica of the Founder guru, Bhaktivedanta. Wai Lana is featured in excessive loads of makeup and much of Butler's crowd is into yoga fitness culture and clothing.

7. Butler has time and again shown himself to not be "lower than a blade of grass and more tolerant than a tree". Since almost the inception of his faction Gaudiya group/cult, he has lived in the lap of luxury served hand and foot by followers who subscribe to irrational rules in his service.

8. The followers are asked to follow all manner of rules, yet, when convenient the rules do not apply to the gurus. Bhaktivedanta used Tabacco snuff daily and Butler broke his sanyas vows to marry a disciple of his. It's not about the imitation of so-called "pure devotees", it's about the so-called role of the acharya or one that teaches by example.

9. The mantras are said to hold some power to purify or raise one's consciousness, yet there is really no living, practical example of such a person. The closest thing to it is devotees like Krishna Das Babaji who were literally chanting 24/7, which is obviously completely unfunctional for the average person. For those that are not on that level of "total surrender," the end result is that they still will need to take birth again and again and deal with the so-called maya always throwing them off. So basically a devotee has to go all the way or risk suffering again and again.

10. Devotees paint an over-the-top view of the world as some place of misery and non-stop suffering. They exaggerate the power of the things they do and lack any rational explanations for most of their practices.

11. Much of the preaching of devotees is based on a type of virtue signaling where they position what they are doing as the "highest" and "absolute" truth. This immediately negates other sincere seekers on other paths that may actually have more vivid results and practically applicable practices.

12. Devotees love using the term "pure" and "perfect". They establish that

13. The ultimate goal of the gaudiya devotees is to realize ones form as a 12 year old cowherd maidservant of the gopis. Yet this is hardly ever preached or explained to anyone. So basically you have to be brainwashed into those "deeper" concepts. No one ever talks about Bhaktivinode getting Siddha pranali diksha and the fact that many of the acharyas are deemed to have eternal bodies as manjaris. No one even asks what that actually means in any functional sense to "realize" such a thing. So, such a state is largely concocted and speculated upon and there is literally nothing that showcases what it means to have such a supposed transcendent experience in a functional way, thus no one can be the wiser whether they are indeed having some authentic realization or simply imagining themselves as a 12 year old manjari girl, which is what I have always suspected. The same goes for the so-called bliss one gets from chanting. What does that even feel life and can it not be easily replicated by many other methods? When Butler chants, what about his chanting and personality indicates in any way that he is somehow experiencing perfected consciousness as opposed to coming up with some clever fag joke in his mind?

14. Is a poor devotee happier when living in Hawaii versus living in the pits of a Polish neighborhood? I'd venture to say yes, no matter how sincere or how many more rounds they chant or if they are doing service on one of Butler's many useless projects 24/7. The fact is that many factors affect people's sense of well-being and it has little to do with the sounds you make with your lips.

15. For as much money as it takes to glorify god, there is little to show for it of functional value to society. Take the Mayapur Temple. So far it has cost some 72 million to build a structure that hopes to "educate" people about vedic cosmology (i.e. suns being pulled around by chariots [www.harekrsna.de]). I thought this process was simple? Chant and be happy. all of a sudden it apparently also takes a whole lot of money as well (a whole lot of spending money to do it right!). The average devotee is asked to give some 10-50% of their income to such "service opportunities". When I started to leave this cult, I recall how my mother and the devotees used to harangue me to "at least keep your donations to the temple and gurudev so you stay "connected" in some way". These devotees are willing to live in poverty while their guru is massaged daily and lives in a beach house or otherwise in the lap of luxury snorting tobacco snuff.

16. The oldest civilization in the general regions the so-called pastimes of Krishna and any sort of "vedic" civilization took place have left no evidence of an "advanced" civilization in contrast to today's societies. There is mostly dirt/brick structures, archaic ritualism and a diet super high in meat. Average lifespan 30-70 years and high infant mortality. Zero proof of any specific worship of Krishna. Some hypothesis based on the iconography of perhaps shiva but more likely proto-Vedic deities. No official scriptures in the Puranic tradition with any verifiable proof of common usage until about 3000 years ago max. Anything prior to that is pure conjecture, speculation and fanatical wishful thinking. So no 5000 year old nothing.

17. All the gods in this religion are India-centric. The animals they ride, clothes they wear, etc etc are all things based on India. There is nothing in it that is symbolic of it having universal appeal. Gods are different based on culture. Hence an atheist or agnostic is mostly saying they do not believe such human inventions of divinity, not that there is no source. we simply cannot in all good faith know authentically what such a beginging, causual source is. We can't even fathom or specualte so why waste ones time. So far such adherance to this or that god/cult/guru/religion has laregly resulted in suffering and pain throughout history.

Logic dictates, like with everything else in the known universe, this religion and its gods and beliefs evolved incrementally over a few thousand years. The prehistoric version of it may date back to even as far back as the dawn of common agriculture some 10-12,000 years ago, when cow husbandry became a thing. Cows figure into the economic growth of Inida exponentially.

It is naive and disingenuous to suggest otherwise. Yet time and again we are told about this "5000 years old" ancient tradition going back to the sun god and lord brahman sitting on a lotus flower coming from the bellybutton of Vishnu. That's not beautiful and wonderful, that's corny and silly. If there is a personal god, it is enough to consider the wonder of the phenomenal universe and nature, no need for cheesy stories to drum up his glory. Man made such stories to fill in the blanks in a time when most humans did not read or write and had no access to the internet and real archeological and scientific papers about history. The vedas do not predict the Internet. Certainly, that was a big enough invention for humans to mention it. The vedas make no comment about dinosaurs, Ice age or any other established REALITIES. The vedas are full of nuggets of wisdom (so does a superman comic strip), but they are by no means an "authority" on life or happiness or anything. yet the entire ideology of Hare Krishna is based on the flimsy rhetoric of undeniable authority of the veda/bhagavatam.

Religion and such cults need to try harder in this day and age to convince people to follow their ideology. And frankly, they would do best to dismantle and allow their adherents to practice whatever their belief system naturally leads them to instead of trying to convince and keep adjusting to fit their biases and narrative. Most religions and cults these days are in a race for confirmation bias. They look for anything and hand on to anything that mildly supports their religion. Discovery of shards of clay vases on the coast of Dwarka! Must mean Krishna was real. Landmass connecting Mainland India to Sri Lanka! Must mean Rama was real and Hanuman built the landmass. Discovery of a coin from Haraapaan civilization featuring a Chariot with two soldiers! Must be Bhagavad Gita!!!!!!!!!! A galaxy looks like a giant eye! Must be the universal form!!!!! It's downright humiliating and sad.

Imagine it. And perhaps this is already organically happening. A group of "devotees" who don't feel the need to start preaching centers and temples, but simply practice what they believe on their own merit and accord. The words of the gurus in the tradition act as simple suggestions if they make sense to such followers. If they don't, they are free to use what they find useful and move on without feeling judged or unanchored. Do you need a living guru? I think the answer is already staring most followers in the face, When was the last time anyone saw the living butler? Or Prabhupada? No one has seen Krishna, so why the charade of deity worship and making statues of someone if we cannot even make such a statue in their true likeness. Ancient Indians already figured that one out and started worship of half-formed deities like Jagannath or even rocks and pieces of wood worshipped more as a talisman rather than some literal interpretation.

The point is that there is nothing really unique or remotely necessary about many of the pointless rules and rituals they preach. If they truly believe that other religions that practice their faith sincerely achieve the same "love of God" as they do, then why even preach anything? The answer lies in the fact that like all cults and religions, they simply think their god is the best. That's all. They might as well admit it and stop trying to play coy about what they are really offering.

It's really silly to walk into a Butler meditation center and see no pictures of Butler and the gurus in the line. It's even more silly that they go out of their way to chant everything BUT the maha mantra in most of their centers (when we joined they actually forbade us to chant the hare krishna mantra except silently on beads—and even then we were mostly told to chant "gopala govinda rama or Nitai Gaura. Why is that??? Are they ashamed of their religion? Are they ashamed of their gods and the silly stories in their scriptures? I could barely explain to my daughter the picture of Narashigha ripping the guts from Hiranyakashipus stomach. Concepts like these are foreign to any rational thinking person let alone attempting to tell people that it's some "eternal dharma" crap.

All religions have the same basic formula. Some concept of heaven and hell. Good and evil. Morality etc. They all believe that you are a soul and that we somehow fell or committed some sin and forgot who we really are. Salvation and freedom from suffering in life is achieved by some rituals and belief system of adoration, worship or devotion to XYZ deity/guru. All major religions preach this same basic idea. The devil is in the details. It's the specifics that make such cults a nightmare for a rationally thinking human. In and of itself there is nothing wrong with believing you are not the body and that god is the source of all creation and we should love and take care of one another and his creation. Most humans who are not complete assholes try to live a life that follows the gold rule: Do to others as you'd like done to you.

Anyway, we know the drill. Here is another good awakened person: [iskconcultunveiled.blogspot.com]

Also leaving these:
[www.youtube.com]
[www.youtube.com]

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Culthusiast,
>
> That is the basic formula. This cult has always
> been about the exaggeration of facts, half-truths
> and disingenuous talking points that don't in fact
> reflect what they are about at all.

Good points, RUN_FOREST_RUN especially for the serious inquirer.

>
> Some claims they make that don't add up at all:
>
> 1. The religion is over 5000 years old. Not true
> even remotely. Chaitanya Vaishnavism accepts
> Chaitanya as an avatar of vishnu/krishna based on
> zero verifiable scriptural references. At best the
> most of what is considered the hare Krishna faith
> these days is about 500-1500 years old.

The aspect of the stages / schools of Vedanta is also important, where we have, for example, "purified monism". The question is how a perfect message from 5,000 years ago can be "cleansed" or "purified".


> 6. They promote the idea of a soul and shun body-centric identification while very much focusing >on externals: Men women, how people dress (saris/dhotis etc), the fact that not until very recently > not a single contemporary image of Butler was circulating and ISKCON temples all feature an > anatomically correct plastic replica of the Founder guru, Bhaktivedanta. Wai Lana is featured in > excessive loads of makeup and much of Butler's crowd is into yoga fitness culture and clothing.

Natural aging icon. With 1mm thick makeup. Or singing mantras with pajamas in front of the fireplace. Sex with a divine couple?


>8. The followers are asked to follow all manner of rules, yet, when convenient the rules do not >apply to the gurus. Bhaktivedanta used Tabacco snuff daily and Butler broke his sanyas vows to >marry a disciple of his. It's not about the imitation of so-called "pure devotees", it's about the >so-called role of the acharya or one that teaches by example

Not only a wedding with a disciple, but a broken family. Is this supposed to be a good example? What does Richie say?

> 7. Butler has time and again shown himself to not
> be "lower than a blade of grass and more tolerant
> than a tree". Since almost the inception of his
> faction Gaudiya group/cult, he has lived in the
> lap of luxury served hand and foot by followers
> who subscribe to irrational rules in his service.

Interesting facts that were recorded in the photos are, among others arati that he performs in front of his own form in the center of the lower altar, breaking the order of Parampara.

Another interesting example is the photo from Tusta Krishna das (David Muncie), where CB is dressed in a golden / yellowish outfit, suggesting that he is Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself.


> 15. For as much money as it takes to glorify god,
> there is little to show for it of functional value
> to society. Take the Mayapur Temple. So far it has
> cost some 72 million to build a structure that
> hopes to "educate" people about vedic cosmology
> (i.e. suns being pulled around by chariots
> [www.harekrsna.de]).
> I thought this process was simple? Chant and be
> happy. all of a sudden it apparently also takes a
> whole lot of money as well (a whole lot of
> spending money to do it right!). The average
> devotee is asked to give some 10-50% of their
> income to such "service opportunities". When I
> started to leave this cult, I recall how my mother
> and the devotees used to harangue me to "at least
> keep your donations to the temple and gurudev so
> you stay "connected" in some way". These devotees
> are willing to live in poverty while their guru is
> massaged daily and lives in a beach house or
> otherwise in the lap of luxury snorting tobacco
> snuff.

Better as a veggie to feed homeless people.


> It's really silly to walk into a Butler meditation
> center and see no pictures of Butler and the gurus
> in the line. It's even more silly that they go out
> of their way to chant everything BUT the maha
> mantra in most of their centers (when we joined
> they actually forbade us to chant the hare krishna
> mantra except silently on beads—and even then we
> were mostly told to chant "gopala govinda rama or
> Nitai Gaura. Why is that??? Are they ashamed of
> their religion? Are they ashamed of their gods and
> the silly stories in their scriptures? I could
> barely explain to my daughter the picture of
> Narashigha ripping the guts from Hiranyakashipus
> stomach. Concepts like these are foreign to any
> rational thinking person let alone attempting to
> tell people that it's some "eternal dharma" crap.

And why there is no "Radha" in "Gopala Govinda Rama" mantra, there is no Radha with Govinda, or Sita with Rama (ok, Ravana's fault), but why Govinda alone? Gopal, cowhered boy ok -with friends, boys and cows...Etc.

And there are no Nitai-Gaur deities in India. They are Gaura-Nitai.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2021 05:13AM by Culthusiast.

“I was shipwrecked before I even boarded . . . the journey showed me this— how much of what we have is unnecessary, and how easily we can decide to rid ourselves of these things whenever it’s necessary , never suffering the loss.”—SENECA, MORAL LETTERS, 87.1

The bottom line is that we are kept in total darkness. The only solace may be blind faith and accepting one of the religious programs that this reality offers us.
It seems as though this reality is hard to handle without belief and faith.
At the end of the day if one has to be on a spiritual crack 24/7, Krishna is still more pleasant and less boring than other religions and scriptures.
A god with a form is more relatable than the one we must imagine.
The lengthly stories and books will also keep one busy for life.
It is just a collective fantasy world. But a sweet one really if gurus such as butler and some nasty devotees do not rain on your parade.
Also no matter whom one thinks god is (krishna, allah, Jehovah , jesus…),that entity can be either related to via love or fear.
Whatever those beings are, they relate to those who relate to them.
Is there a more organic, kinder source above these gods?
We do not have much info about that either.
So are we to do? Speculate all day long?
Letting an Ahole like butler or other devotees distort that relation is our own responsibility.
So what has been my life and fate now that I am an expert critical thinker. An experiencer of the supernatutal. One who has gone as deep as possible down the rabbit hole. One who cannot be easily brainwashed…
Does this make me happier than the days I was in Krishna or god lala land?
The security of going home and having a purpose.
Yes life is not easy when faith in god is all that you have known since childhood.
What if it was all a god damn illusion. What is not an illusion anyway?
The likes of butler have created a walking on eggshells spirituality. They have turned many totally off a path that actually has some positives too.
I know some people in the soi group who are genuinely running nice and kind centers devoid of fear and fanaticism.
However they are still linked to butler and midgett and see them as spiritual authorities. And would possibly jump off the window if they told them to.
I totally load the whole middleman system of guru.
What is this retartded system of staying in diapers your whole life and ask another person what you can and cannot do.
How can a person mature spiritually under so much guidance, doubt and control?
It does not matter who and what a person wants to worship. What stories they want to believe in.
That relationship should be personal, without fear, without a mask, without control…
It is so sad that people should actually protect themselves from gurus and other devotees.
If the goal of bhakti is mindless worship and some bliss here and there, then I guess that soi will do the job.

Therapy is of paramount importance when leaving these Cults. Can't stress it enough.

After years of it making mashed potatoes of my brain I benefited greatly from one on one and group therapy.

Eventually I had enough confidence to trust myself again.

Regardless if you come out believing in God or a guru or religion, try focusing on REALITY. In a cult that bakes your brain in fiction, it's a valuable life skill to have. Recognize when you're needing to highten your critical thinking. Generly, if you're not Constantly bombarded by hare Krishna bullshit you're guard can be let down a bit and you can just enjoy your life. Gurus spend most of thier time trying to convince you that you're unhappy or something is inherently wrong with you. The Same basic mechanism of Christian ideology of original sin.

Krishna religion is just as boring as all the other religions. Don't believe me, look at the average devotee kid at a kirtan. Everyone else? They're just waiting for the food. The only time my mother smiled was when someone was taking a picture. The rest if the time she was as miserable as they come. Suggesting a therapist to her is like committing the elephant offense.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So what has been my life and fate now that I am an
> expert critical thinker. An experiencer of the
> supernatutal. One who has gone as deep as possible
> down the rabbit hole. One who cannot be easily
> brainwashed…

It's such a paradox. And Iankoviak could become a professor of Indology ....One of the best..

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They're just waiting for the food.

Don't leave dude, wait for food
Bol Bol get sweet ball
Jai jai don't you cry
payed the price, you get rice

Dolphee, dolphee come to me
got weed package here for thee
put the package in the ass
money is the greatest sense...

and what next,
then we have sex,

we have villas everywhere,
there no hustle, bustle there
but when comes the nasty beep
you're again a common sheep




Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2021 06:06PM by Culthusiast.

- What is your name?
- Sir Workalot of Chantalot
- What is your quest?
- Seek what sells the best
- What is your favourite color?
- Green? No! Blue!- aaaaaaaaa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2021 06:34PM by Culthusiast.