For Indigo Guy: The Guru Papers
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: July 18, 2010 03:48AM
For Indigo guy,
Everyone here is bringing up a lot of great points. Take it seriously. It doesn’t take much time to be “influenced” and you have been around for 2 years trying to make inroads in the levels of “seriousness”. That is obvious. You know the party line very well. Perhaps these postings are a test of some sort to “defeat in argument” those that oppose Butler to gain points. I am not sure if you are here to debate or get confirmation on your doubts.
In either case, the Ofshe article that Rick posted is one to really look at. Don’t be so cavalier with your own life. [www.culteducation.com]
I’ve read it several times while considering the Butler group and see more and more with every read.
I also recommend you look at all the documents I posted with letters and instructions from Butler concerning children and his own personal care.
The following is a response to reading "The Guru Papers". Thought this post was worth repeating.
Everyone here is bringing up a lot of great points. Take it seriously. It doesn’t take much time to be “influenced” and you have been around for 2 years trying to make inroads in the levels of “seriousness”. That is obvious. You know the party line very well. Perhaps these postings are a test of some sort to “defeat in argument” those that oppose Butler to gain points. I am not sure if you are here to debate or get confirmation on your doubts.
In either case, the Ofshe article that Rick posted is one to really look at. Don’t be so cavalier with your own life. [www.culteducation.com]
I’ve read it several times while considering the Butler group and see more and more with every read.
I also recommend you look at all the documents I posted with letters and instructions from Butler concerning children and his own personal care.
The following is a response to reading "The Guru Papers". Thought this post was worth repeating.
Quote
Vera City
Regarding:
Science of Identity Foundation
Jagad Guru Chris Butler
Siddhaswarupananda
Science of Identity Foundation Cult
It never ceases to amaze me how the pattern remains the same . . .
What follows is an eloquent description of guru cults ~ which also fits the cult of Butler. My comments relating to Butler specifically are in blue. Pay close attention to what is bold and colored red from the article.
Excerpted from:
The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power
by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad
The following quotes are taken from Part One of the Guru Papers
and are deemed by ex-members to be strikingly accurate in describing
the dynamics of a cult guru.
“If an authority not only expects to be obeyed without
question, but either punishes or refuses to deal with those who
do not, that authority is authoritarian.” (p.15)
“Gurus can arouse intense emotions as there is extraordinary
passion in surrendering to what one perceives as a living God.” [or the pure representative/ agent of G0d.]
(p.33)
“In spiritual realms fear and desire can become
as extreme as they get.. When a living person becomes the focus
of such emotions, the possibility of manipulation is correspondingly
extreme.” (p.41) [not only the emotions of desire for bliss/perfection/ a perceived spiritual achievement, but also when one puts their total focus of love and passion on to a guru -- the possibility of manipulation is an absolute.]
“In the East a guru is more than a teacher. He is a doorway
that supposedly allows one to enter into a more profound relationship
with the spiritual. A necessary step becomes acknowledging the
gurus specialness and mastery over that which one wishes
to attain. The message is that to be a really serious student,
spiritual realization must be the primary concern. Therefore,
one’s relationship with the guru must, in time, become one’s
prime emotional bond, with all others viewed as secondary. In
fact, typically other relationships are pejoratively referred
to as attachments.(p..49) [sound familiar? How many times have the followers of Butler been told this or have been instructed to prioritize their love, service, energy, and money to the PRIME RECIPIENT - Butler!]
“So although most gurus preach detachment, disciples become
attached to having the guru as their center, whereas the guru
becomes attached to having the power of being others center.”
(p.50)
“The ways people deny and justify are similar: Since
supposedly no one who is not enlightened can truly understand
the motives of one who is, any criticism can be discounted as
a limited perspective. Also, any behavior on the part of the guru,
no matter how base, can be imputed to be some secret teaching
or message that needs deciphering.” [Or excused as the undecipherable act of the pure lover of G0d, which no one can understand => that there must be a pure purpose behind it all. In Butler's case, extreme OCD, paranoid, or narcissistic behaviors are easily discounted as being due to the misdeeds of followers or having to take on the karma of diciples.]
By holding gurus as perfect and thus beyond ordinary explanations,
their presumed specialness can be used to justify anything. Some
deeper, occult reason can always be ascribed to anything a guru
does: The guru is said to take on the karma of others, and that
is why his body has whatever problems it has. The guru is obese
or unhealthy because he is too kind to turn down offerings: besides,
he gives so much that a little excess is understandable. He punishes
those who disobey him not out of anger but out of necessity, as
a good father would....
He lives an opulent life to break people’s simplistic preconceptions
of what ego-loss should look like; it also shows how detached
and unconcerned he is about what others think. For after all,
Once enlightened, one can do anything. Believing
this dictum makes any action justifiable.” [In Butler's case, his opulent lifestyle is excused in the following way. You are told that it is an austerity for him to accept the offerings of followers to benefit them spiritually. You are told that he does not want or need these things but only does it for your benefit, that he would rather be left alone or go back to Krishna in the spiritual world, but out of his mercy he graciously accepts your gifts. You are told that he is as good as G0d and should be treated like he was G0d, and you are told often enough how far you fall short from this, so you keep trying to give more and better. You are told he is not G0d, only His humble representative, so this paradoxically seems to make it all right . . .]
People justify and rationalize in gurus what in others would
be considered unacceptable because they have a huge emotional
investment in believing their guru is both pure and right.”
(p.52)
“That interest in one’s own salvation is totally
self-centered is a conundrum rarely explored.” (p.54)
“So disciples believe they are loved unconditionally, even
though this love is conditional on continued surrender. Disciples
in the throes of surrender feel they have given up their past,
and do not, consciously at least, fear the future. . . Feeling
totally cared for and accepted, at the universe’s center,
powerful, and seemingly unafraid of the future are all achieved
at the price of giving one’s power to another, thus remaining
essentially a child.” (p56)
“It is not at all unusual to be in an authoritarian relationship
and not know it. In fact, knowing it can interfere with surrender...
Any of the following are strong indications of belonging to an
authoritarian group:
1. No deviation from the party line is allowed. Anyone who has
thoughts or feelings contrary to the accepted perspective is made
to feel wrong or bad for having them.
2. Whatever the authority does is regarded as perfect or right.
Thus behaviors that would be questioned in others are made to
seem different and proper.
3. One trusts that the leader or others in the group know what’s
best.
4. It is difficult to communicate with anyone not in the group.
5. One finds oneself defending actions of the leader (or other
members) without having firsthand knowledge of what occurred.
6. At times one is confused and fearful without knowing why. This
is a sign that doubts are being repressed.” (p.57)
“The power of conversion experiences lies in the psychological
shift from confusion to certainty.” (p.65) [Anyone who has experienced an "initiation", a new name, the emotional high of complete and utter acceptance of the guru knows this feeling of certainty. It is a feeling more powerful than anything experienced in one's lifetime. You are in the arms of an UBER PARENT and no longer need to think or wonder if you are doing the right thing in life or not. The security and contentment you feel is fantastic, but it is false. You spend the rest of your time in the cult using your higher cognitive powers of analysis, evaluation, and synthesis to protect this feeling of abusrd certainty that you have all the answers. It robs you of your energy and creativity. It robs you of life lessons and earned wisdom. You remain a child and can not escape it because of an addiction to that initial rush of conversion.]
“People whose power is based on the surrender of others
develop a repertoire of techniques for deflecting and undermining
anything that questions or challenges their status, behavior,
or beliefs. They ridicule or try to confuse people who ask challenging
questions.” (p.66) [Dear people in or exploring this cult, please consider this statement very carefully. Can you really deflect everything cleanly, with absolute certainty or do you need to rationalize away many things you know to be true? or at least once knew to be true? or are you knowingly continuing with the charade?]
“Is experiencing intense energy a sign of spirituality,
or is the experience in the same vein as young ladies who swoon
in the presence of rock stars?” (p.68) [When Butler was a cute, young buck, the swoon factor was very prevalent with both young ladies as well as with men. Feigning to hate this, Butler wielded this power over people very artfully. Now he has money, power and a well established mythology, along with a strong army of followers willing to propagate his myth, even after his death.
“To be thought enlightened, one must appear not only certain
that one is, but certain about most everything else, too.”
(p.70)
“Gurus undercut reason as a path to understanding. When
they do allow discursive inquiry, they often place the highest
value on paradox. Paradox easily lends itself to mental manipulation.
No matter what position you take, you are always shown to be missing
the point; the point being that the guru knows something you do
not.” (p.74)
“Their stance toward outsiders is of benign superiority.”
(p77)
“As long as the guru still sees the possibility of realizing
his ambitions, the way he exercises power is through rewarding
the enthusiasms of his followers with praise and positions in
his hierarchy. He also whets and manipulates desire by offering
carrots,and promising that through him the disciples
desires will be realized, possibly even in this lifetime. The
group itself becomes an echo of the guru, with the members filling
each other’s needs. Within the community there is a sense
of both intimacy and potency, and a celebratory, party-like atmosphere
often reigns. Everything seems perfect; everyone is moving along
the appropriate spiritual path. The guru is relatively accessible,
charming, even fun. All dreams are realizable-even wonderful possibilities
beyond one’s ken.” (p.78) [When the guru is no longer accessible, the followers take the place of the guru, continue the hierarchy, and propagate the myth through stories and old photographs when the guru was a young man. Followers homes and businesses become guru franchises.]
“People are especially vulnerable to charismatic leaders
during times of crisis or major life change.” (p.87)
“People don’t want a second-rate guru; they want the
one who seems the best. [How can you beat being the follower of a Jagad Guru,which means Guru of gurus, guru of the whole world, which is what Butler proclaims himself! Their new party line covers this up by saying that "Jagad Guru" only means that he is a "yoga master
whose teachings are relevant to and can be applied in the personal lives of every person—regardless of their ethnicity, nationality, or sect." Don't kid yourself. This is just another smoke screen and lie. He still wants your money, your time, and your adulation. After you have been primed, indoctrinated and found useful you will be told the their real beliefs. All his teachings are only relevant to how you can serve Butler. He has no concern for your material or spiritual welfare whatsoever.]
Since purity is the standard measurement
of the gold or Greenwich meridian time of the guru world
each guru has to claim the most superlative traits. This
is naturally a breeding ground for hypocrisy, lies, and the cultivation
of false images of purity. Gurus are thus forced to assume the
role of the highest, best, the most enlightened, the most loving,
the most selfless, the purest representative of the most profound
truths; for if they did not, people would go to one who does.
Consequently, it is largely impossible for a guru to permit himself
real intimacy, which in adults requires a context of equality..
All his relationships must be hierarchical, since that is the
foundation of his attraction and power.” (p.88)
“Since adulation from any one person eventually becomes
boring, gurus do not need any specific disciple they need
lots of them. Gurus do give special attention to those with wealth
and power.” (p.89) [In Butler's case, he also seeks out followers with special talents that he needs for his kingdom - such as artistic, musical, interpersonal abilities, etc.]
[Pay close attention to the following statement! Very powerful.]
“Gurus likewise do many things to ensure that their disciples
prime emotional allegiance is toward them. In the realm of sexuality,
the two prevalent ways control is exerted are through promulgating
either celibacy or promiscuity. Although seemingly opposite, both
serve the same function: they minimize the possibilities of people
bonding deeply with each other, thus reducing factors that compete
with the guru for attention.” (p.92)
“Many gurus and spiritual authorities negate, make light
of, or even ridicule the use and value of Western psychotherapy
because its concepts of the unconscious undermine their authority
and power. To acknowledge that unconscious factors may be operative
in oneself means that one cannot be totally sure one is selfless.”
(p.102)
Because of the nature of the relationship which demands total
surrender, gurus . . . cultivate and reward
transference, for a parental type of authority is at the very
core of the gurus power over disciples. The power to name,
arrange marriages, and dictate duties and behavior are ultimates
in parental authority, especially in traditional societies like
the East. To give someone the power to name or marry you is to
profoundly accept their parental role in defining who you are.
The ostensible motivation behind this has to do with an attempt
to break the ties of the past so the person can become new.
A deeper reason is that this aids the guru in becoming the center
of the persons emotional life, which facilitates surrender.”
(p.105)
“Successful gurus, rock stars, charismatic leaders of any
sort, experience the intensity of adulation amplified beyond most
peoples ken. This can make ordinary relationships pale
by comparison. Being the recipient of such adulation and devotion
is exceedingly addictive. Here addiction is used in its loose
sense to mean mechanically needing an on-going fix
of adulation to where it becomes the central focus of one’s
life. Adulation has powerful emotions for the sender as well,
and can be easily mistaken for love. It is likewise addicting
for the sender, as it is an easy route to feelings of passion.
Since adulation is totally a function of image, should the images
crack, adulation disappears, demonstrating that it is essentially
empty of real care.” (p.112)
[It is my wish that this website help those struggling within this cult and those who have dear ones in its grip to use this information to crack the facade, expose the charade, and see Butler for what he is -- a pathetic attention whore with an addiction to adulation. Nothing more. All nothing.]
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
indigoarthur
()
Date: July 18, 2010 04:30AM
Vera City,
Thank you for your response. I had already stumbled upon and read that post of yours. I see its many valid points. However, and this is in my world a very valid question, would they not exactly apply to a "real" guru as well, that is, a person with some form of true spiritual realization, who happened to be "teaching strictly?"
[...]
If the guy is a fake I will eventually come to know that. If you guys can save me some time that might be nice. But so far the strongest arguments I have heard is that he is intolerant and uses "brainwashing."
[...]
Is there evidence of evil misdeed on Butler or his Vaishnavas part?
[...]
As for financial stuff, again, is there evidence of crime? Handing over possessions to one's spirtual guru is a common practice in many traditions far and wide on this planet. I have read of and seen it from many people far removed from Butler.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2010 09:25AM by rrmoderator.
Thank you for your response. I had already stumbled upon and read that post of yours. I see its many valid points. However, and this is in my world a very valid question, would they not exactly apply to a "real" guru as well, that is, a person with some form of true spiritual realization, who happened to be "teaching strictly?"
[...]
If the guy is a fake I will eventually come to know that. If you guys can save me some time that might be nice. But so far the strongest arguments I have heard is that he is intolerant and uses "brainwashing."
[...]
Is there evidence of evil misdeed on Butler or his Vaishnavas part?
[...]
As for financial stuff, again, is there evidence of crime? Handing over possessions to one's spirtual guru is a common practice in many traditions far and wide on this planet. I have read of and seen it from many people far removed from Butler.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2010 09:25AM by rrmoderator.
purpose of this thread
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: July 18, 2010 05:42AM
Quote
indigoarthur
It seems I cannot address the discussion without veering into "preaching."
Yes, I am partly here to "rationalize, spin and apologize for his behavior." But is that not merely another side in this discussion's viewpoint? If you do not permit the pro-Butler-Organization (and I repeatedly state I am not necessarily pro-Butler, I have only seen/heard him through tapes) people to state their opinions, or classify any attempt at pointing out the potential positive or the philosophical justification for the behavior that is this thread's subject matter as preaching... well, so pretty much only negative viewpoints are permitted here?
FYI, this is a website that precisely and CRITICALLY reviews cults and other organizations that exploit people. According to standard and accepted definitions of a harmful cult, Butler's fits the bill. This thread is maintained by people who have decades of experience with Butler and have been injured by his cult. This is NOT a place for philosophical discussions, preaching, or debates. Rationalizing, spinning, and apologizing for the documented, known, and harmful behaviors of this cult is NOT another side of the discussion. As rrmoderator says, "The issue is the behavior of Chris Butler and how he profits from his group." That is the topic.
If you want to study how cults work and manipulate people and ask questions about what really goes on in Butler's cult --- what the man behind the curtain is really all about, and to ask questions related to that topic, then this is a good place. If you have doubts about Butler and need a safe and anonymous place to talk, then this is a good forum for you. We don't all agree with each other and have diverse backgrounds and lives.
What all the exers here are unanimous on is that they are a lot happier out of Butler's clutches. We don't want others to fall into the same trap, so we post. Before you judge them all as undiciplined, dull eyed, lazy, maya driven, drug and sex crazed "gross materialists" why don't you take the time needed to review the information here, away from your Butlerite peers.
The focus of this forum is also to dicuss what was lost because of being in Butler's not-so-inocuous cult. A few positives have been mentioned, like Z gratefully saying he missed the whole disco era, caught a lot of good waves, met some beautiful people, and made music. If you asked him if it was worth it to lose over a decade of his life for Butler, he would say, “HELL NO!”.
Your posts have sadly illustrated the many cliches and justifications used to exploit followers for Butler's ultimate addiction to adulation. I would hate to see you get kicked off this forum unless your sole purpose is to cause disruptions and make arguments.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: July 18, 2010 06:15AM
Dharmabum --GREAT POST and wise words! I laughed out loud about the dasi's jiggling boobs and Guru Google!
Quote
dharmabum
By the way, by espousing the term DEMONS as you like referring to others other than them, I think you're already trapped. Run boy run, there is still time...
The hypocrisy in the group is immense. There are brutalities, gossips, affairs, anything you find in the outside world, they often criticize, are also or much more in there. Believe me, bro, been there, done that. You'll be in better shape joining the Greenpeace. At least they are authentic, and they bring documented results. These guys you don't know what happens behind closed doors, they are a cult, Why do you think they are so secretive, so afraid to come out in the open? Believe me, Chris Butler will not stand a chance get scrutinized by the thinking public. Thus he hides. Typical cult leader.
When you escape, bring your two mentors with you. They may have a good heart but they don't know what they are talking about. That "Krishna in your heart will reveal to you" is a trick. Another woohooh experience trick cults employ to entrap gullible people. Many of us heard that before, and it actually worked. Look at us now? Don't be so naive, that woohooh experience you had, is not exclusive to them. Go to India, this happens everyday. Read the life of St. Bernadette, or go to any mental institutions. One word — PSYCHOSIS. That's what it is all about. Read neuroscience, it's observable now, it's just the wiring in our brain.
Stay away from cults, they all are the same. Do you really want to know what the Truth is? The Truth is nothing that we humans should be obsessed about. We are like amoebas in the ocean. Even the gods are no bigger than us. If you understand how vast this universe is, what these gurus claim or what were written about the gods become laughable. The knowledge you get from Science is more awesome in magnitude than all the so called holy books combined. At least Science never claim to have the Truth, it's just pure eagerness to know more.
Just be as like anybody else and accept the world for what it is - both good and bad. As long as your good outweigh your bad, that's all you could do, man. Be compassionate to others and be comfy in whatever situation you are in. There will always be somebody greater and lesser than you. Stop being judgmental, or feel superior or purer. In the end, we really don't and can't know anything outside that that is under our noses. There are much to do in what we already know. The unknowables religious leaders have claimed over and over to have answers for, you can look back now and know not one of them got it right. If all these representatives claim to have come from the same source, why can't they agree with one another? It's just as simple as that. No mystery, no seven virgins, no reward for all the good things that you do for somebody up there, or for those who claim to be THE REPRESENTATIVE. When you do good, expect nothing in return. Always have a sense of humor and stop taking things so seriously (most of the time, that's when trouble comes in), you'll be fine as a human being. Stop bowing to all these dorks they all shit the same way you do. Nothing more. When they say they don't get a hard on looking at those lovely dasis, jiggling their boobs in pujas, believe me, they do. That Butler guy, I think he's a maniac, just like the rest. He claims to be a celibate, oh, give me a break. He's a liar. I will bet my neck, if he is willing to submit Wai Lana to a medical test. He's an idiot. Stop wasting your time and your life, expecting nirvanas from following these pretenders. Do you really want self-realization? I have a guru for you. Guru Google, he's got all the answers these gurus are no match to. These gurus are just after your money and the services you could give, with Guru Google, you pay nothing, ZERO, FREE. There is still time, bro, don't be stupid, escape.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: July 18, 2010 09:42AM
indigoarthur:
The repetitive religious preaching was edited out, but your comments regarding behavior were allowed through.
Sadly, you do come across as "brainwashed" and largely unable to think critically about the group.
You don't really seem to care what Butler does.
Your observations contradicting Margaret Singer are ridiculous.
Singer was a psychologist who worked at Walter Reed and grew up around the Marines. It was daily life growing up, as her father was a Marine. She also professionally counseled more than 1,000 former cultists and taught psychology at the University of California in Berkeley.
Bu your responses do demonstrate how shut down your mind is now.
In my opinion, Butler is little more than a "con man" exploiting and living off of his followers.
"Intensive therapy specialists" indeed.
They have no clinical training and not qualified in the field of "therapy," but that's a telling description that lines up with "coercive persuasion."
Try to spin in way you wish, but you have become involved with a group that has a deeply troubled history of very serious complaints, many former members alleging abuses, no real financial transparency and a totalitarian leader without any meaningful accountability
The repetitive religious preaching was edited out, but your comments regarding behavior were allowed through.
Sadly, you do come across as "brainwashed" and largely unable to think critically about the group.
You don't really seem to care what Butler does.
Your observations contradicting Margaret Singer are ridiculous.
Singer was a psychologist who worked at Walter Reed and grew up around the Marines. It was daily life growing up, as her father was a Marine. She also professionally counseled more than 1,000 former cultists and taught psychology at the University of California in Berkeley.
Bu your responses do demonstrate how shut down your mind is now.
In my opinion, Butler is little more than a "con man" exploiting and living off of his followers.
"Intensive therapy specialists" indeed.
They have no clinical training and not qualified in the field of "therapy," but that's a telling description that lines up with "coercive persuasion."
Try to spin in way you wish, but you have become involved with a group that has a deeply troubled history of very serious complaints, many former members alleging abuses, no real financial transparency and a totalitarian leader without any meaningful accountability
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Malcolm Wesley WREST
()
Date: July 18, 2010 09:54AM
Dear Indigo Arthur,
You will of course have already recognized that this comment (here I quote you)....
.....how do I know that Chris Butler is really God's representative?"
The answer: "You don't, but if it is meant to be, Krishna will reveal it to you in your Heart."
...is exactly what the Mormons claim to those who ask after their faith.....that by sincerely paying to God for a confirmation of these things (in the Book of Mormon), the "truth" of them shall be made "manifest" to them....(hence you'll consequently "sign up" and join, won't you!)....
...the statement itself PREDISPOSING one to surmise that if the DON'T receive a "confirmation of these things" that they are in fact themselves, insincere.....hence their "unworthiness" is the reason for any lack of response....wheras getting an answer, then REASSURES the inquirer that they are in fact "sincere"....
The corollary of the comment to you, would likewise, seem to be that were you NOT to have the experience that you clearly believe you have had, that Krishna would not apparently have deigned to communicate with you...
Disregarding the mysteriously similarity in approach here.....doesn't this seem just a little manipulative to you?
I am merely reproducing some of the excellent points already made earlier by Veracity here, however in Robert Liftons work, he states that "mystic experiences", the "demand for Purity" and "milleau control" are some of the techniques, for example, employed by the unscrupulous to persuade individual members of the wider public to "come on board"...
Dr. Robert J. Lifton's Eight Criteria for Thought Reform
Milieu Control.
This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.
Mystical Manipulation.
There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes.
Demand for Purity.
The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.
Confession.
Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders.
Sacred Science.
The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.
Loading the Language.
The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking.
Doctrine over person.
Member's personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.
Dispensing of existence.
The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also. (Lifton, 1989)
[www.csj.org]
Your accounts of your "loose involvement" do for the moment remind me of the Moderators earlier comments that "Basically, what your group seems to be doing is breaking you down to gain influence, induce submission and ultimately manipulate and use you like a "pawn."..."
However perhaps I'm being unfair.....as a little experiment, would you like to try mentioning to some of the Vaishnava's who may have personally impressed you, that you have been in contact with several long standing critics of the organization....
Reactions that fundamentally sought to "isolate" you from other perspectives on Chris Butler and that "restricted" your access to information,
would to my mind, say a little bit about the quality of the "spiritual authority" you are dealing with....
If I may conclude IndigoArthur, with a little quote from Edwin Arnolds translation of the Bhaghavad Gita (from the ending paragraphs of the third Chapter)
"Govern thy heart! Constrain th' entangled sense! Resist the false, soft sinfulness which saps Knowledge and judgement! Yea, the world is strong, But what discerns it is stronger and the Mind strongest......."
You will of course have already recognized that this comment (here I quote you)....
.....how do I know that Chris Butler is really God's representative?"
The answer: "You don't, but if it is meant to be, Krishna will reveal it to you in your Heart."
...is exactly what the Mormons claim to those who ask after their faith.....that by sincerely paying to God for a confirmation of these things (in the Book of Mormon), the "truth" of them shall be made "manifest" to them....(hence you'll consequently "sign up" and join, won't you!)....
...the statement itself PREDISPOSING one to surmise that if the DON'T receive a "confirmation of these things" that they are in fact themselves, insincere.....hence their "unworthiness" is the reason for any lack of response....wheras getting an answer, then REASSURES the inquirer that they are in fact "sincere"....
The corollary of the comment to you, would likewise, seem to be that were you NOT to have the experience that you clearly believe you have had, that Krishna would not apparently have deigned to communicate with you...
Disregarding the mysteriously similarity in approach here.....doesn't this seem just a little manipulative to you?
I am merely reproducing some of the excellent points already made earlier by Veracity here, however in Robert Liftons work, he states that "mystic experiences", the "demand for Purity" and "milleau control" are some of the techniques, for example, employed by the unscrupulous to persuade individual members of the wider public to "come on board"...
Dr. Robert J. Lifton's Eight Criteria for Thought Reform
Milieu Control.
This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.
Mystical Manipulation.
There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes.
Demand for Purity.
The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.
Confession.
Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders.
Sacred Science.
The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.
Loading the Language.
The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking.
Doctrine over person.
Member's personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.
Dispensing of existence.
The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also. (Lifton, 1989)
[www.csj.org]
Your accounts of your "loose involvement" do for the moment remind me of the Moderators earlier comments that "Basically, what your group seems to be doing is breaking you down to gain influence, induce submission and ultimately manipulate and use you like a "pawn."..."
However perhaps I'm being unfair.....as a little experiment, would you like to try mentioning to some of the Vaishnava's who may have personally impressed you, that you have been in contact with several long standing critics of the organization....
Reactions that fundamentally sought to "isolate" you from other perspectives on Chris Butler and that "restricted" your access to information,
would to my mind, say a little bit about the quality of the "spiritual authority" you are dealing with....
If I may conclude IndigoArthur, with a little quote from Edwin Arnolds translation of the Bhaghavad Gita (from the ending paragraphs of the third Chapter)
"Govern thy heart! Constrain th' entangled sense! Resist the false, soft sinfulness which saps Knowledge and judgement! Yea, the world is strong, But what discerns it is stronger and the Mind strongest......."
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: July 18, 2010 11:54AM
Malcolm, thanks for your insights relating the Butlerites to the Mormons. I always enjoy your posts both here and on the other forum.
Butler Quotes
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: July 18, 2010 12:18PM
Are you stubborn as a mule and motivated, not by sweet words, but a kick in the ass? Lets save everyone a lot of time and effort. Too attached to the material world? Need a guru but don’t have decades to offer up all your time and income? Your fav guru no longer makes public appearances? No worries.
Instant Chris Butler Science of Identity Intensive Therapy Specialists are now here! Presenting Attack Therapy / Surgery / Depolarization that is guaranteed to reduce your attachment to Your False Ego!
Brainwashing you say!? Now that is just silly. We are more like a mind/spiritual colonic! Just ask the lord in your heart! Get it now! Get it fast! Get it for free!
These are actual chastizements given by Jagad Guru to devotees better than you! Imagine the possibilities and spiritual progress you donkey types can make with these very same blessing bashings! You will be grovelling in no time to the next kirtan completely deconstructed! .
“What the f### are you doing here!? You wanted to see me? So? Now you see me.”
“ You are all demons, you are just like f###king ISKCON, Your all condemned!!!”
“I am not condemning you, you are condemning yourself.”
“My Godbrothers in Iskcon are clumps of dog stool.”
“ If I don’t want to answer you, you are at fault not me.”
“If you don’t know you are not supposed to know.”
“Tell that a-hole the only way he can come to a gathering is if he pays 100 dollars each time.”
“Tell a-hole I changed my mind, he has to pay 1,000 dollars every gathering he comes to.”
“As soon as you realize you have nothing to offer me and you don’t know anything maybe then I can teach you something.”
“It is your fault, the guru is faultless.”
“My disciples make me sick.”
“You would think with 25 kitchen servants and 35 preparations a day, spending over a hundred dollars a meal, you a##holes could make something good to eat. Instead I have to go to a Chinese restaurant to get a bite to eat. A-holes!!!”
“You fool don’t say the metal detectors are to detect guns, say they are to detect beeper watches, you know what a great offense it is to wear one near me. Oh I am so irritated by that sound!!!”
“Damn it keep your gun in your bead bag. That’s what it is for idiot!! You probably thought you were supposed to keep beads in that bag. Fool!!! I have to teach you guys everything!!!”
“WTF is a##hole doing here, tell him to get the f##k out of here.”
“Tell J--- I don’t want to see his face, but because I have to talk to him and deal with him, he can wear a bag over his head, then I don’t have to see his face.”
“I am more humble than anyone, even my own guru.”
“Damn bogus guru! They all have guruitis.”
“My disciples all have guruitis too!!!”
“My disciples are all f###king neophytes.”
“Everyone has guruitis but me and VD.”
“Insulting VD is worse than insulting me you idiot.”
“Are those a-holes still running that store in Lahaina, why don’t they give it to DTE, a-holes--- and they call themselves my disciples make all kinds of money while their kids skate and surf, a-holes, they should give it to me.”
“WTF!!!!.. you guys have been working on getting this house together for 6 weeks now. You expect me to live here after you shit all over it??? You missed a space there dumb shit, cover it with tin foil so I can live here in peace. Straighten out your germ mask idiot.”
“Tell Sankirtan das to stay out of my house, he has dirt between his toes.”
“Tell Wayne and Krishna das, WTF, I let them get into politics and now they act just like politicians!!!! They became politicians those buttheads!!”
‘ I let my disciples dress like karmis and materialist and now they act like karmis and materialists, a-holes.”
“Call the head of personal service, everyone fast for 6 months, the milk in the refregerator is out of date. Call a meeting world wide. Tell the head of personal service to get her ass here right now!! WTF is this hair doing in my soup gaddamit. Tell everyone fast for a year, six months is too lenient. Tell the head of personal service not only must she fast from food and water she has to fast from sleep too!!!”
Get that sh###t out of here, you call that prasadam, a-holes!!!” Everyone is fined 1,000 dollars each.!!!”
“ You spend a fuggen 100,000 dollars on this air machine and I still have to use an oxygen bottle, can’t you guys do anything right??”
“What you expect me to breath common air?? A-holes!!”
“What? Just because you come here and clean my floor and wash my dishes, eat my toenails and drink my footwater you think you have the right to talk to me, write me a letter a-hole.”
“The only person I can trust is VD.”
“The guru is never attached to the opposite sex.”
“Where is VD, I have not seen her in the last 10 minutes.”
“What you think I spend all my time with my wife because I am attached? A-hole this is pure devotional service, me and VD will serve together in the spiritual world too you envious snake!!”
The pure devotee is peaceful and does not need anything or anyones service, he has Krsna.”
The pure devotee is self satisfied, always peaceful and never troubled by the duality of the world.”
“The servant of Krishna has no enemies.”
“What is that A-hole doing here, I told him get the hell out of Hawaii and go back to New Zealand.”
“Ok you can take off the bag now, I think you learned your lesson.”
"Where are my f###ing mangoes!"
"Everybody off site except VD and her kids, they are the only ones who care about me".
"Can't someone make some f---ing decent food around here, poor VD has to now order from a Chinese restaurant".
"Would the person who cut out my f--ing labels in my shirts come and tell me which way is the right way to put them on"
You stay in that f---ing hotel room by the phone until I tell you to leave, and to f---ing bad if you are hungry"
"Keep my disciples poor that way they will always be subservient to me"
"what the f--K are you doing here, I thought I told you to leave"
" so you want to be my disciple, okay then I accept you, now you are mine to use in Krsna's service"
Question by disciple,” If you have illicit sex and loose your semen do you lose your intelligence?”
Siddha, “Is that why you are so fu##king stupid???”
Q. My wife is hard to get along with, we are having problems.
Siddha, “You married a fu##king truck and now you’re wondering why you got run over.”
Female disciple that just came back from the beauty parlor with a new hair do.
Siddha, “What the fu#k happened to your head?”
Siddha to his female disciple on the phone, “You fu#king cunt, you fu#king whore!!!”
~ Thanks to quotesman and a few other exers for these quotes.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2010 12:24PM by Vera City.
Instant Chris Butler Science of Identity Intensive Therapy Specialists are now here! Presenting Attack Therapy / Surgery / Depolarization that is guaranteed to reduce your attachment to Your False Ego!
Brainwashing you say!? Now that is just silly. We are more like a mind/spiritual colonic! Just ask the lord in your heart! Get it now! Get it fast! Get it for free!
These are actual chastizements given by Jagad Guru to devotees better than you! Imagine the possibilities and spiritual progress you donkey types can make with these very same blessing bashings! You will be grovelling in no time to the next kirtan completely deconstructed! .
“What the f### are you doing here!? You wanted to see me? So? Now you see me.”
“ You are all demons, you are just like f###king ISKCON, Your all condemned!!!”
“I am not condemning you, you are condemning yourself.”
“My Godbrothers in Iskcon are clumps of dog stool.”
“ If I don’t want to answer you, you are at fault not me.”
“If you don’t know you are not supposed to know.”
“Tell that a-hole the only way he can come to a gathering is if he pays 100 dollars each time.”
“Tell a-hole I changed my mind, he has to pay 1,000 dollars every gathering he comes to.”
“As soon as you realize you have nothing to offer me and you don’t know anything maybe then I can teach you something.”
“It is your fault, the guru is faultless.”
“My disciples make me sick.”
“You would think with 25 kitchen servants and 35 preparations a day, spending over a hundred dollars a meal, you a##holes could make something good to eat. Instead I have to go to a Chinese restaurant to get a bite to eat. A-holes!!!”
“You fool don’t say the metal detectors are to detect guns, say they are to detect beeper watches, you know what a great offense it is to wear one near me. Oh I am so irritated by that sound!!!”
“Damn it keep your gun in your bead bag. That’s what it is for idiot!! You probably thought you were supposed to keep beads in that bag. Fool!!! I have to teach you guys everything!!!”
“WTF is a##hole doing here, tell him to get the f##k out of here.”
“Tell J--- I don’t want to see his face, but because I have to talk to him and deal with him, he can wear a bag over his head, then I don’t have to see his face.”
“I am more humble than anyone, even my own guru.”
“Damn bogus guru! They all have guruitis.”
“My disciples all have guruitis too!!!”
“My disciples are all f###king neophytes.”
“Everyone has guruitis but me and VD.”
“Insulting VD is worse than insulting me you idiot.”
“Are those a-holes still running that store in Lahaina, why don’t they give it to DTE, a-holes--- and they call themselves my disciples make all kinds of money while their kids skate and surf, a-holes, they should give it to me.”
“WTF!!!!.. you guys have been working on getting this house together for 6 weeks now. You expect me to live here after you shit all over it??? You missed a space there dumb shit, cover it with tin foil so I can live here in peace. Straighten out your germ mask idiot.”
“Tell Sankirtan das to stay out of my house, he has dirt between his toes.”
“Tell Wayne and Krishna das, WTF, I let them get into politics and now they act just like politicians!!!! They became politicians those buttheads!!”
‘ I let my disciples dress like karmis and materialist and now they act like karmis and materialists, a-holes.”
“Call the head of personal service, everyone fast for 6 months, the milk in the refregerator is out of date. Call a meeting world wide. Tell the head of personal service to get her ass here right now!! WTF is this hair doing in my soup gaddamit. Tell everyone fast for a year, six months is too lenient. Tell the head of personal service not only must she fast from food and water she has to fast from sleep too!!!”
Get that sh###t out of here, you call that prasadam, a-holes!!!” Everyone is fined 1,000 dollars each.!!!”
“ You spend a fuggen 100,000 dollars on this air machine and I still have to use an oxygen bottle, can’t you guys do anything right??”
“What you expect me to breath common air?? A-holes!!”
“What? Just because you come here and clean my floor and wash my dishes, eat my toenails and drink my footwater you think you have the right to talk to me, write me a letter a-hole.”
“The only person I can trust is VD.”
“The guru is never attached to the opposite sex.”
“Where is VD, I have not seen her in the last 10 minutes.”
“What you think I spend all my time with my wife because I am attached? A-hole this is pure devotional service, me and VD will serve together in the spiritual world too you envious snake!!”
The pure devotee is peaceful and does not need anything or anyones service, he has Krsna.”
The pure devotee is self satisfied, always peaceful and never troubled by the duality of the world.”
“The servant of Krishna has no enemies.”
“What is that A-hole doing here, I told him get the hell out of Hawaii and go back to New Zealand.”
“Ok you can take off the bag now, I think you learned your lesson.”
"Where are my f###ing mangoes!"
"Everybody off site except VD and her kids, they are the only ones who care about me".
"Can't someone make some f---ing decent food around here, poor VD has to now order from a Chinese restaurant".
"Would the person who cut out my f--ing labels in my shirts come and tell me which way is the right way to put them on"
You stay in that f---ing hotel room by the phone until I tell you to leave, and to f---ing bad if you are hungry"
"Keep my disciples poor that way they will always be subservient to me"
"what the f--K are you doing here, I thought I told you to leave"
" so you want to be my disciple, okay then I accept you, now you are mine to use in Krsna's service"
Question by disciple,” If you have illicit sex and loose your semen do you lose your intelligence?”
Siddha, “Is that why you are so fu##king stupid???”
Q. My wife is hard to get along with, we are having problems.
Siddha, “You married a fu##king truck and now you’re wondering why you got run over.”
Female disciple that just came back from the beauty parlor with a new hair do.
Siddha, “What the fu#k happened to your head?”
Siddha to his female disciple on the phone, “You fu#king cunt, you fu#king whore!!!”
~ Thanks to quotesman and a few other exers for these quotes.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2010 12:24PM by Vera City.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
dharmabum
()
Date: July 18, 2010 01:44PM
Please stop wasting time on people like Indigo. Let him wallow in his woohooh experience if that is his wish. He's a big boy, and it is in his every right. In my opinion even if God himself came down from heaven and told him that Chris Butler is a fraud, he would still stick to what he wants. The heart will follow what it desires. This doesn't just apply to sex and infatuation, professional gurus are great seducers of the heart. Just leave him alone. It's like trying to wake up someone who is pretending to be asleep. It's a complete waste of time.
Hey Terranaut, here is a great example of what I was telling you about — those who would choose whatever they want to belong to. THE WILLING PARTICIPANTS/INNOCENT VICTIMS DEBATE. I wish Indie falls in the former. I'm just not sure for what benefit? If he's a victim, it looks like he's a lost cause. I don't think he is seriously seeking evidence of his guru's misdeeds as stated, because there are tons on this forum. His agenda is clear, to be a mouthpiece for his exposed guru. But I don't think he is succeeding though. The more he opens his mouth, the more his guru and his racket get exposed. I'm sure there are fence-sitters there reading this, and Indie's poor showing will help pave the way for them to reconsider their unfortunate predicament.
It's just unfortunate, cults will still be with us longer than we thought. There will always be people like Indie, no matter how progressive our societies have become. Fortunately, unlike the past decades, these morons are getting lesser and lesser as societies become more and more educated. I think this forum have amassed copious materials would be victims can help themselves to and help make up their minds. With lost causes like Indie, no amount of materials are enough to change their minds. It's nature of the beast. We are complex species, we may just have to accept that — there are incredible species like Indie, sick as it may be.
Hey Indigo, can you at least do the world a favor? Stay away from innocent children please? To help minimize the damage cults bring to this world? I would really appreciate that. I'm pretty sure not just me, but the world at large. If you're happy with that game, go play to your heart's content. Sad to say, this forum will not stop from sharing our experiences and bring out more and more materials about exposing dangerous cults. We will always zero in on Butler's activity, unfortunately; that will not change either. Nothing personal, it's just that we share the same concern the modern world has about religious cults — they are a menace to society.
When you get tired playing your game, OR, when you get fired for bringing more trouble to your already troubled cult, and would like to sit down and share your experiences with posters on this forum, I assure you, anyone of the posters here will be nice enough to share some well-meaning thoughts with you or anybody like you, including me. Meanwhile, I'm personally giving up spending precious time to listen to your woohoohs. That just reminds me and brings more unsavory memories of how stupid we were being exactly like you. I have lesser patience with cases like yours. Hopefully, somebody on this forum will have longer line in trying to save your ass. I'd rather stick to my number one concern — the innocent victims, especially the children. You will not hear from me from now on. You can feel relieved now.
Give my regards to my ex-godbrothers and sisters there and tell them there is more to life for me after the cult; next time, send here somebody more heavyweight than you as a mouthpiece; and they've got to be ashamed of themselves for involving their children and feeding them cereals with foot wash and toenails. Yuck. How sicker can this cult go?
Hey Terranaut, here is a great example of what I was telling you about — those who would choose whatever they want to belong to. THE WILLING PARTICIPANTS/INNOCENT VICTIMS DEBATE. I wish Indie falls in the former. I'm just not sure for what benefit? If he's a victim, it looks like he's a lost cause. I don't think he is seriously seeking evidence of his guru's misdeeds as stated, because there are tons on this forum. His agenda is clear, to be a mouthpiece for his exposed guru. But I don't think he is succeeding though. The more he opens his mouth, the more his guru and his racket get exposed. I'm sure there are fence-sitters there reading this, and Indie's poor showing will help pave the way for them to reconsider their unfortunate predicament.
It's just unfortunate, cults will still be with us longer than we thought. There will always be people like Indie, no matter how progressive our societies have become. Fortunately, unlike the past decades, these morons are getting lesser and lesser as societies become more and more educated. I think this forum have amassed copious materials would be victims can help themselves to and help make up their minds. With lost causes like Indie, no amount of materials are enough to change their minds. It's nature of the beast. We are complex species, we may just have to accept that — there are incredible species like Indie, sick as it may be.
Hey Indigo, can you at least do the world a favor? Stay away from innocent children please? To help minimize the damage cults bring to this world? I would really appreciate that. I'm pretty sure not just me, but the world at large. If you're happy with that game, go play to your heart's content. Sad to say, this forum will not stop from sharing our experiences and bring out more and more materials about exposing dangerous cults. We will always zero in on Butler's activity, unfortunately; that will not change either. Nothing personal, it's just that we share the same concern the modern world has about religious cults — they are a menace to society.
When you get tired playing your game, OR, when you get fired for bringing more trouble to your already troubled cult, and would like to sit down and share your experiences with posters on this forum, I assure you, anyone of the posters here will be nice enough to share some well-meaning thoughts with you or anybody like you, including me. Meanwhile, I'm personally giving up spending precious time to listen to your woohoohs. That just reminds me and brings more unsavory memories of how stupid we were being exactly like you. I have lesser patience with cases like yours. Hopefully, somebody on this forum will have longer line in trying to save your ass. I'd rather stick to my number one concern — the innocent victims, especially the children. You will not hear from me from now on. You can feel relieved now.
Give my regards to my ex-godbrothers and sisters there and tell them there is more to life for me after the cult; next time, send here somebody more heavyweight than you as a mouthpiece; and they've got to be ashamed of themselves for involving their children and feeding them cereals with foot wash and toenails. Yuck. How sicker can this cult go?
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
indigoarthur
()
Date: July 19, 2010 03:31AM
[...]
I ask again: is there evidence of abusive activity beyond verbal? I ask in hopes of getting pointers that will not require me to read 290 pages parsing for something "substantial."
Yes they are "brainwashing". I ask again: is there evidence they are brainwashing people to commit abusive or illegal acts?
I have heard here of families/children being victimized. If possible I would like to know more so I can try to see how those situations relate to Butler.
I do wish to hear the best evidence, I'm not so much looking to "discuss" this any longer. Thank you.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2010 06:53AM by rrmoderator.
I ask again: is there evidence of abusive activity beyond verbal? I ask in hopes of getting pointers that will not require me to read 290 pages parsing for something "substantial."
Yes they are "brainwashing". I ask again: is there evidence they are brainwashing people to commit abusive or illegal acts?
I have heard here of families/children being victimized. If possible I would like to know more so I can try to see how those situations relate to Butler.
I do wish to hear the best evidence, I'm not so much looking to "discuss" this any longer. Thank you.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2010 06:53AM by rrmoderator.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.