DASSI

I don't know what the actual divorce rate is in the Butler group, but it has been as high or higher than the general population. Why is this an issue? Because if your system really worked, your divorce rates would be a lot lower because of your understanding. The practices, as stated, should have brought people to a spiritual understanding and purified them by the "holy" name. You all should be enlightened, unmaterialistic, and mutually serving your god. After years of chanting, you should be on the same page. But CB has excuses for this as well. It's not HIM, but everyone elses fault for not pleasing him enough, not sending him enough money... blah, blah...

To really look at the reasons for the high divorce rate in CB's group you will find some unique ones compared to regular post-modern problems. Many married couples could not deal with the demand for celibacy unless they wanted a child. Other reasons included poverty and lack of a normal family life due to long absences working for guru for free. Many devotees depended on state welfare, which did not bother Chris one iota. Many children were not raised with a lot of attention or given a proper education. There are of course exceptions, but we are talking about reasons for divorce peculiar to the Butler group. There were also MANY affairs between followers. Infidelity was rampant. I know Chris did not approve of this, but he did nothing to discourage this. His advice and philosophy did nothing to establish a peaceful society. All he was ever concerned about was if money was rolling in for he and his consort ,or if his pet projects were going well. He was never an example of a saddhu or householder in the Vedic tradition. All this has been covered on this forum before.

The divorce rate is no different than what the general populations is. I know for a fact that people get divorced for reasons that are very common in everyday relationships. I can agree that celibacy was at a higher demand than it is now, but that no longer is being pushed liked it used to be. But celibacy is taught in all forms of religion. Its taught in Catholic religion which is what I was brought up in. In christian religion also. I agree that many children were/are being brought up without the proper education that will sustaina decent life but that is purely the choice of their parents but I wish to see a change in that. Infidelities are common among everyday people. Its one of the number one reasons people get divorced along with money problems. So to say thats a large cause for JG followers to be divorced it is no different than the general population. I think that yes JG should address these issuses and not just sweep them under the rug but it is shunned upon.

You forget that there were also a lot of people who gave up their education, lives, and money to Chris Butler thinking him to be a pure devotee, which he clearly is not. Also, public, political figures like Gabbard have misled his constituency by denying and distancing himself from Butler's group. This makes him disingenuous. Homophobia also has no place in politics. It is not modern and cool. It is a fact that has existed since time immemorial. Some people are homosexuals. They deserve the same rights and services as any other citizen. I knew Mike. He was not particularly homophobic. He took this position only at the request and direction of Chris Butler. Which brings us to the real problem. Chris Butler has meddled in Hawaii's politics for years using his followers. The voters really need to know what Reed's, Nishiki's, Gabbard's, etc. influences and agendas were to make informed decisions.

Again those who gave up their education willingly...well...shame on them. I have found a way to have the best of both worlds education and spiritual life and no one has ever said anything to me about it. As far as the Gabbard's misleading his constituents...WOW...lets mark this day in history that for the first time every a politician has misled his constituents. I feel there are far greater dangers out there in the political world than the Gabbard's. Like the tabacco industry, the oil industries, and the public media. Which can do far more harm than the Babbard's could ever do. Homophobia does has its place in politics. If homophobia has no place then neither did giving blacks the same rights as whites. Aside from my spiritual beliefs...my political beliefs were formed well before I knew JG. I am not against gays getting married but I am against indoctrinating that belief into our school system and teaching young children of society that being gay is OK. Or to question themselves wether or not he/she is gay or strait. You are NOT born that way and there is no proof to say otherwise. I feel that being gay has something to do with childhood trauma from being molested or some other sort of perversion, or the person themselves are just perverted. Simply my opinion. People meddle in politics all the time. People with so much money that it makes what monies JG has pocket change...literally...Billions of dollars...The Gabbard's arent gonna change the world nor will they change Hawaii.

Donating money may be by choice, but if you don't give, you are told that you will be "spritually dead" if guru is low on funds. I experienced this first hand...not from one "bad apple", but from old Chris himself. When I was involved with DTE, you are right, there was no using "flirty" techniques to lure the opposite sex like the "Chidren of God" cult. I have no idea if they adopted that later on.

But...ahem...erm.... young girls and boys have had sex before marriage. You must be really naive. There are some famous children of followers who got knocked up or knocked someone up. Hate to break this to you... it happens.

Finally, I'm glad to hear that you guys are human and have sex on a regular basis. Maybe that is why you seem so comfortable in the cult.

Donating money can be on an anonymity basis. I donate all the time and know one knows when or how much I donate. Yes boys and girls are having sex but it is far more under control compared to the general public. And sex is not the reason why I am comfortable with JG. I was simply stating that married couple have sex on a regular basis as anyone els does.

It is very easy to pick apart one's words to make yourself sound riotous. You're doing exactly what you claim JG is doin. Twisting words to make things fit to your benifit. With all do respect...Practice what you preach. Lets not get confused with what you think is fact is mearly you expression an opinion on things. I am pretty sure you have "some" first hand knowledge of what goes on. But lets not mislead people from fact and opinons.

Hello Krsnacon. It is good to see you contibuting to this discussion. Obviously, the more viewpoints and facts presented, the better it is for people trying to make up their minds about SoI. People who post here have all had some experience with the group, and are able to report on the circumstances of their involvement, and I believe they are also entitled to have formed some opinions based on their experiences. That is..based on the FACTS of their experience. That is how a person processes information, after all.

Dassi raised the idea of 'Cognitive Dissonance' in an earlier post. I think this can be compared to that lecture by JG where he is talking to the girl who wants to know if he is really the Spiritual Master. JG tells her that she should not take his word for it, but should check in Scripture, to see if what he is saying matches the things in Scripture, and she should also check with the Lord in her heart. Remember that one? Well, what happens when you see something go down that does NOT match the teachings in scripture, or which makes you feel uneasy? You are told to accept it, that maybe a certain disciple has more spiritual vision than you, or maybe you are too fallen and ignorant to understand why that thing happened, but the result is that you have a feeling about it which your mind tells you to ignore. That is cognitive dissonance.

I have felt that way many many times. I have seen people being 'chastized' in a mean and nasty way, or made to give money for trivial 'offences', money that they do not have, forbidden to come around. People are put down, made to feel unworthy, stupid and devoid of any worth. This is supposed to be good for you, helping you to get to the bottom so, presumably, you will become spiritually purified. This is questionable for many reasons:

1. Who is to say that a person is able to withstand this type of mental abuse? Depression, anxiety disorders and suicide are known events in SoI. Fact. You cannot explain it away by saying that the individual caused the problem. Any system which is based on the teachings of respect for the spirit soul, compassion for the struggling spirit soul, cannot sweep these behaviours under the rug. "and ready to offer all respects to others" is how it goes, remember?

2. It goes DIRECTLY against the teachings in scripture. Wrong, no matter who you are.

3. The people doing the chastising are the ones who should know better. Why do they not?

So, the 'cognitive dissonance' comes from seeing stuff that is directly against scripture (and decent human values), and being told it is good and true and proper. No wonder it becomes difficult to see the truth.

Homophobia is another area that needs attention. You cannot have it both ways. Either homosexuality is the result of a person being molested/abused/exposed to deviant sexual behaviour/whatever...and in that case they are deserving of some compassion, no? OR they were born that way. In which case, is it to be considered their fault? IF SoI has decided that homosexuality is such a threat, whatever happened to "it is Krishna's design, Krishna is in control" etc etc. In other words, why not just do as you are told in scripture, and leave the design of humankind up to Krishna?
The absurdity of it all is that any suffering person is considered worthy of compassion EXCEPT gays, or FAGS as the young ones are told to call them. If you truly believe that a homosexual has a huge problem, then can you not solve that problem by applying the philosophy you hold to be truth? If you were to do this, then you would invite gay people to your home, befriend them, let them hear chanting, offer them prasadam, and maybe invite them to a kirtan. After all, the Holy Names are all powerful, no? so you see.....logic is sorely missing in places.

I do hope that you will consider carefully what has transpired on this thread. Read carefully and you will see many factual accounts which might make you question some of the practices you have become accustomed to. I think that Krishna can stand a few questions, you are not blasphemous for questioning.

namaste

Krsnacon, welcome.

Many have posted here who were very close to Chris Butler. I know things have changed and now many will become his follower and disciples without ever having much contact with him. So if such persons hear some of the things on this website it may be hard for them to believe. I think you may fall into the category of one who will never have much close contact with Chris and will be shielded from many of the goings on near him.

There are a few misconceptions you stated I would like to correct. Please don’t be offended.

Down to Earth has always been a cash cow for Chris from the very beginning. I know because I used to work there and saw how the money is funneled to him first hand. After paying employees etc., ALL the profits go to Chris. The elite in the cult know that and are responsible for funneling the money. They are very clever about it and do it in such a way as to skirt the law. That was no secret even to the lesser folk like myself. Chris uses the money for the things he has affinity for, like politics and ocean front residences in Hawaii, and other posh areas. It also helps to pay the cost of chartered jets when he needs to travel.


On homosexuality and the homophobic attitude of Chris and his followers again you are wrong.

I am astounded Chris could teach something so contrary to Vaishnava and Vedic principles. I would recommend you re-consider what you have been taught concerning the subject. You are being misled to believe the attitude Chris has towards the third gender somehow represents Gaudiya Vaishnavism. IT DOES NOT..you have been misled my friend.

According to Gaudiya Vaishnava Tattva (truths)..
by previous and present karma, the soul is sometimes covered by the bodies of a male, sometimes a female, and sometimes a genderless body. Those souls covered in third gendered bodies are called khoja in Sanskrit. The Sanskrit word “khoja or kliba” is used throughout Vedic texts to describe many different types of people who belonged to a “gender-ambiguous” and neutral third sex. These people were not considered to be ordinary males and females, and they did not experience attraction for the opposite sex or engage in sexual reproduction. They were taken to be a combination of both the male and female natures, yet at the same time neither one.

Arjuna himself once took such a body due to a curse. But it was only outwardly a curse, Krishna Himself thought it a boon and useful. This story is found in the Mahabharata of which the Bhagavad-gita is just one chapter.

As the story goes… While visiting his father Indra in heaven, Arjuna had refused the amorous advances of the celestial prostitute Urvasi. Angered by this, she cursed him to become a “kliba,” a member of the third sex. The fact that they are mentioned in the “Mahabharata”, and other Vedic texts indicates that such persons were present within that society many thousands of years ago. It also indicates they were tolerated and not demonized. Arjuna was despondent over the impending curse, but Krsna assured him that this so-called curse would actually become a useful benediction. Krishna was not homophobic in any way and allowed His dear servant Arjuna to take on the role of a homosexual as a disguise.

Here is a description of Arjuna the great ‘he man’ warrior covered in the body of a homosexual paraphrased from the Mahabharata.

“Arjuna presented himself donned in a woman’s blouse and draped in red silk. He wore numerous ivory bangles, golden earrings and necklaces made of coral and pearls. His hair was long and braided, and he entered the royal palace with the gait of a broad-hipped woman. At the same time his body still remained incredibly stout and muscular. .. his feminine attire hid his masculine glory but at the same time it did not. He appeared just like the full moon when eclipsed by the planet Ketu.”

The entire story can be found in the Mahabharata.


In later times with the degradation of the caste system and the disintegration of Vedic Culture many un-orthodox practices began to sprout up in India perpetrated by hard hearted fundamentalists who know very little about Krishna Consciousness, and just like in the west third gendered persons started to experience much unnecessary persecutions that never ever took place in ancient Vedic Culture.

Was homosexuality promoted in Vedic Culture? Absolutely not…not anymore than other forms of sex considered illicit by Vedic standards. But it was not considered a big deal either. And what was the punishment for those who engaged in homosexual activity? According to the Vedic law books of mankind, the Scripture called the Manu Samita, which every Gaudiya Vaishnva recognizes, the atonement for homosexual activity is that one should go jump in a river. Preferably a holy river like the Ganges. That was the punishment, a holy bath. The lack of punishment for homosexual behavior within the Manu-smriti indicates that homosexuality was obviously not viewed as threatening or dangerous to Vedic society. On the contrary, men of the third sex (tritiya-prakriti in sanskrit) are generally described as gentle, feminine, or non-violent by nature. And according to Chris Butler what should the punishment be? He sides with the hard hearted right wing Christian fundamentalists on the issue. Just gas them like Hitler did. That is not the attitude of the followers of Caitanya Mahaprbhu.

Krsnacon you are dead wrong to say that a person is not born with homosexual tendencies. To say such a thing shows that you are sorely lacking in knowledge about how the souls come into the world. I am sure it is not your fault. Because you have been listening to and following Chris Butler you have learned all these things that are contrary to the Vedas and the Gaudiya Vaishnava Tattvas.

Go to Canto 3 chapter 20 of the Srimad Bhagavatam and read it for yourself that third gendered souls are born.

[vedabase.net]


Even Caitanya Mahaprabhu accepted the service of third gendered persons and such persons have always been sought out to give their blessings at such functions as Vedic weddings and birth ceremonies since time immemorial, and even today. Even in Jagannatha Puri, the Lord accepts the worship of such third gendered souls. This is mentioned in the Caitanya Caritamrta.
When Caitanya Mahaprabhu appeared,
many residents brought precious gifts and the father, Jagannatha Misra, also gave profusely in charity to the brahmanas and the poor. NOT THE LEAST among the guests were the dancers of the third-gender community known as the nartaka, who happily performed before the Lord. These dancers were especially used for religious occasions. Historically, people of the third sex have always played a prominent role in the arts and entertainment, not just in India but also around the world. All of these transvestites from the napumsaka or gay community were devotees of the Lord, and they prayed to God to bless the child and grant Him a long life, as was the custom. Jagannatha Misra then gave them some precious jewelry and beautiful silks, and they continued with their dancing and singing of Hare Krsna.

All the above is backed up in the following places.

Caitanya Caritamrta 1.13.106. The purport also offers a short description of the “eunuch” class.
Caitanya Caritamrta Adi-lila Chapter 13 entitled “The Advent of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.” There is also an audiotape by His Divine Grace on this pastime produced by The Bhaktivedanta Tape Ministry entitled Outline of Lord Caitanya Play, Part One, Tape no. 67—002, San Francisco, April 5, 1967.

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Srimad Bhagavatam 1.11.20—22.



His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, The Nectar of Devotion, pp. 332 and 387—388.

Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada explains,

“…such people have their own society, and their means of livelihood is that whenever there is some good occasion like marriage or childbirth, they go there and pray to God that this child may be very long-living.” (San Francisco, 4/5/67)

So I am just giving this information to show that the Gaudiya Vaishnava take on homosexuality and the Vedic take on it does not in any way resemble the take Chris Butler or his followers have on the subject. I am not promoting homosexuality or condemning it. I am just giving the Vedic facts here.

Kcon,
I am sorry for the delay with my answer as I have been very busy at work.

To kcon:

I have no quarrel with you personally. If you are content and happy chanting your rounds, going to gatherings, celebrating your holidays with friends, talking about who just had a baby, cooking the latest vegetarian recipes, or doing work that brings you meaning and happiness, then what does it matter if people are critical of your guru and religion!?

As long as you do not bother other people or engage in illegal activities, violate any ones rights, use coercive mind control techniques or violence, why should I care? I certainly do not want any harm to come to you or other members of your group based on their beliefs. There is a poor woman in Indonesia who was put in jail for TWO YEARS by Islamists because she worshipped a teapot! This is insane! Maybe you think she needed to be put in the looney bin instead of jail, but I support freedom of religion… especially my own freedom.

[www.telegraph.co.uk]

This forums purpose is to discuss cults and how they have affected people and their families. This particular thread is an open discussion about the Chris Butler group. If you are a follower, you need to understand that you will hear criticisms of your guru here. This is against Chris Butler’s rules. According to his belief system and teachings, you are putting your spiritual life in grave danger by being here. This is also a number one red flag for a cult; “No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry”. Here is where we question the discrepancies between what we learned and what we actually experienced as Chris Butler’s followers.
[www.culteducation.com]

We could show you examples of most of the points on the 10 Warning Signs list, but it would be better if you just carefully read this thread with discernment. That means that just because you have not had the same experiences in the cult that we have had, that they did not happen. Not believing it possible or that it contradicts what you think you know about this group does not make it all lies.

If you are planning on banking on, investing your whole life into something, it is important to really do research and examine the history and the present levels of success. I suggest you read the whole thread.

Chris’s teachings are supposed to be a panacea for all the ills in the world; divorce, drug use, promiscuity, crime, misery. If divorces are still going on in the group at the same rate as the general population, it just shows you that the teachings are not valid or the chanting and serving is not working. Of course you will echo Chris’s words that it is because his followers are not pleasing their spiritual master. It is their fault. That is another cult tactic: blame the followers, not the guru or his teachings. (BTW- There are religious groups where the divorce rate is much lower than the general population.) The truth is that the devotee lifestyle does create specific reasons for divorce peculiar to the teachings in addition to all the regular reasons.

Not everyone agrees about Chris’s little cult here. Everyone has had different experiences within the group. You try to invalidate our experiences by flippantly saying, “That’s just your opinion” as if they were dirty words and insults. Our opinions have been shaped by our experiences and facts. But you blow us off so easily because within your group you are taught that any one who speaks out against your guru is a demon and gross materialist. Followers conclude falsely that if I am against their guru, that I must also be some horrible drug and sex crazed materialist who eats raw baby cows!

You are also taught that your ability to know anything is faulty; therefore you need a guru to guide you back to godhead. As “terrenaut” stated, you are told to check out scripture and the Lord in your heart to validate your guru of choice. The problem lies in knowing what scripture to read? If you are an obedient follower, you are forbidden to look at books written by any one except Chris! If you are able to look at ACB’s or other translations, you will only get confused without Chris’s “New Testament” to explain the contradictions! And what the heck is the “Lord in the heart” any way! Yeah, it’s a cool concept. But how do you know you are not channeling your dead Aunt Edna, some “demon spirit”, some residual LSD (that your mom took when she didn’t know she was preggers), your fertile imagination, chemical or hormonal imbalance, or just having a little psychotic break?

How do you really KNOW that Chris is a pure devotee?
Did someone you tell you?
Did you believe them? Why?
Did you have a dream?
Did he lay his charismatic smile on you?
Have you even ever met Chris or had many conversations with him?
Have you ever worked closely with him on a daily basis?
Is your only contact through a photo on an altar and recorded lectures?
Were you raised from birth in a devotee family?
Aren’t the answers you give yourself also opinions?

There are opinions based on facts and opinions based on belief.

Followers are told how to live every aspect of life, including how to wipe their butt. They are taught to not trust themselves or develop basic critical thinking skills. They are given all the answers so they don’t have to think. That’s a real comfort for many people. Now here’s the real cognitive dissonance clincher…. You are told that you can think when you really can’t outside of the cult manifesto! You are told you are not a fanatic, when you really are, as evidenced by your intolerance of criticism! You are told not to follow blindly and yet you are required to wear blinders! It is a comfortable world, but a constricted one.

Much of the true history and facts about this group have been presented on this forum (along with a lot of crap, which is unfortunate because it makes it harder to sort out the chaff, but it is still doable). I could write a lot more in response to your comments, but it’s all been said here before by others. There are many other perspectives besides mine here. By considering other points of view with an open mind, you will develop critical thinking skills. By learning to look at things as they are instead of as you wish them to be is a painful, but necessary process for growth.

I don’t expect to change your mind by any of my comments, but I would hope that you will one day not fear the truth.

Quote
quotesman

So I am just giving this information to show that the Gaudiya Vaishnava take on homosexuality and the Vedic take on it does not in any way resemble the take Chris Butler or his followers have on the subject. I am not promoting homosexuality or condemning it. I am just giving the Vedic facts here.

Hi Quotester!
Another good point.

Chris Butler claims to base his whole teachings on Gaudiya Vaishnavism and the diciplic succession.
It is what he uses to legitamize his ascendency to Jagad Guru status.
At the same time he exempts himself from the tradition and basic tenants of the philosophy.

Hi Dassi, thanks.

I wonder what Krsnacon thinks about my post.

I wonder how long it will be before he is told to stay off this site. At least he is trying to defend his guru. That is what a disciple is supposed to do. If the disciple cannot counter those who challenge what the guru teaches then he is considered to be a type of spiritual eunuch and the guru impotent for not being able to instill in the disciple divine knowledge and correct conceptions.

It is true some of a very malicious and hateful mentality have come to this site and caused a lot of trouble and such persons can be ignored. But legitimate doubts about Chris Butler are also found here. Such persons who have legitimate doubts or question the authenticity of a guru are not demons. Many such persons with doubts can be persuaded by good logic if the guru and his followers are bona-fide. If the guru is not bona-fide then of course he has to adopt cult-like tactics to avoid being found out.



Hey goodling, you still around?

Furthermore...

It is unprecedented for a Gaudiya Vaishnava Acharya to marry his spiritual daughter, to give up vows after once uttering them in front of his guru, to engage in underhanded politics, to live a lavish lifestyle of ease and comfort at the expense of his followers, or or to go into hiding to avoid controversy. The acharya should be approachable by the common man. Our acharyas come down to our level, they do not perch themselves on pedestals no one can approach. Such activity cannot be defended citing guru, sastra and sadhu. And to avoid controversy is also condemned in the Caitanya Caritamrta.

"One should not neglect to discuss such conclusions, thinking them to be controversial, since such discussions strengthen the mind. In this way one’s mind becomes attached to Krsna." (Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi 2.117)

It is only weakness of heart that causes one to avoid controversy. It is lack of faith and it is lack of surrender to ones guru and Krishna. If some one you care about is attacked or misrepresented then our love will dictate that we defend the person and oppose his enemies. Only the cowardly who have no real faith in what it is they teach will take to hiding from controversy.

“Therefore the doubts which have arisen in your heart out of ignorance should be slashed by the weapon of knowledge. Armed with yoga, O Bharata, stand and fight.” [Bhagavad-gita 4:41]

"Devotional service of the Lord that ignores the authorized Vedic literatures like the Upanisads, puranas, Narada-pancaratra, etc., is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society." Srila Rupa Goswami