Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
cultreporter
()
Date: May 28, 2007 01:57PM
This is great reading, the link goes straight to the forum page, but there are other articles on Sai Fi there
[www.fathershomepage.com]
[www.fathershomepage.com]
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
atheist
()
Date: May 28, 2007 02:32PM
I keep meaning to spend a lot of time going through all the posts, but there sure is a lot of stuff!
Someone, a while back, was wondering if ISKCON is still out there selling books and trying to recruit members on the streets.
In Waikiki, the answer is: "Yes." There are recruiters/solicitors on Kalakaua Ave in Waikiki, the main drag most of the day and just about every day of the week. They have stickers that say "I Love Your Smile" or "I Love Hawaii." They used to have a sticker of Lord Jagganatha that they not only offered up to tourists, but pasted around Waikiki. Sometimes you would find them on the sidewalk in front of a McDonald's or Burger King.
I haven't seen the Jagganatha sticker for a couple of years.
The ISKCON recruiters on Kalakaua Ave, often approach Japanese tourists.
For someone who is interested, they have Prabhupada books available. I have a collection of such books that were discarded around Waikiki.
Sometimes, to start a conversation, they will go up to a man and say something like "you've violated a law, I caught you smiling at that woman." I've seen ISKCON recruiters even give targets phony "tickets."
You can read about such tickets at:
[newsworthy2.tripod.com]
The ISKCON recruiters often wear photo ID badges that say they are from "Food for Life," and that they are raising funds to feed the poor.
There is another guy from ISKCON who pushes small art posters. Donations for the posters (he wants at least $5) are to go for a "concert for the environment.' This guy claims to be from an organization called "P.E.A.C.E." (People for the Enlightenment of All through Cultural Enlightenment). I was never able to find anything on the internet about "P.E.A.C.E."
This guy was on Kalakaua Ave five years ago and I saw him there last week.
One other thing that I wanted to mention and that may have been previously discussed here is that people who have an obscession with homosexuality are often homosexual themselves.
The long-term preoccupation of Chris Butler and Mike Gabbard with homosexuality, certainly makes me wonder: Are they self-hating gays themselves?
Of course, Gabbard has an openly lesbian sister and is said to have a gay son.
Way back in 1982 (or so), author Perry Deane Young wrote "God's Bullies: Power, Politics and Religious Tyranny"
[www.amazon.com]
A major thesis of "God's Bullies" is that many of the leaders of anti homosexual groups are homosexual themselves.
Someone, a while back, was wondering if ISKCON is still out there selling books and trying to recruit members on the streets.
In Waikiki, the answer is: "Yes." There are recruiters/solicitors on Kalakaua Ave in Waikiki, the main drag most of the day and just about every day of the week. They have stickers that say "I Love Your Smile" or "I Love Hawaii." They used to have a sticker of Lord Jagganatha that they not only offered up to tourists, but pasted around Waikiki. Sometimes you would find them on the sidewalk in front of a McDonald's or Burger King.
I haven't seen the Jagganatha sticker for a couple of years.
The ISKCON recruiters on Kalakaua Ave, often approach Japanese tourists.
For someone who is interested, they have Prabhupada books available. I have a collection of such books that were discarded around Waikiki.
Sometimes, to start a conversation, they will go up to a man and say something like "you've violated a law, I caught you smiling at that woman." I've seen ISKCON recruiters even give targets phony "tickets."
You can read about such tickets at:
[newsworthy2.tripod.com]
The ISKCON recruiters often wear photo ID badges that say they are from "Food for Life," and that they are raising funds to feed the poor.
There is another guy from ISKCON who pushes small art posters. Donations for the posters (he wants at least $5) are to go for a "concert for the environment.' This guy claims to be from an organization called "P.E.A.C.E." (People for the Enlightenment of All through Cultural Enlightenment). I was never able to find anything on the internet about "P.E.A.C.E."
This guy was on Kalakaua Ave five years ago and I saw him there last week.
One other thing that I wanted to mention and that may have been previously discussed here is that people who have an obscession with homosexuality are often homosexual themselves.
The long-term preoccupation of Chris Butler and Mike Gabbard with homosexuality, certainly makes me wonder: Are they self-hating gays themselves?
Of course, Gabbard has an openly lesbian sister and is said to have a gay son.
Way back in 1982 (or so), author Perry Deane Young wrote "God's Bullies: Power, Politics and Religious Tyranny"
[www.amazon.com]
A major thesis of "God's Bullies" is that many of the leaders of anti homosexual groups are homosexual themselves.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
just-googling
()
Date: May 29, 2007 12:07AM
Quote
Rama Das (slave name)
A little comic relief here, or is it evidence of a completely braindead cult zombie?
Now you know where all your donations to Chris Butler end up...
He just throws thousands and thousands of dollars at his simpleton wife who he, for some reason thinks is fucking brilliant.
This MUST be the biggest disaster in the history of television production while simultaneously being the funniest thing anyone who has stumbled upon it has ever witnessed.
This "woman" has dance moves straight out of "Barney", "Playschool" or "Teletubbies".
And the outfits are so hideous and asexual, she might as well just wear a potato sack... oh yeah, wouldn't want to show any wrist or elbow.
Anyways, I laughed my ass off, so I guess I should be gratefull.
[www.youtube.com]
[www.youtube.com]
Thanks for this Rama... I laughed my ass off too!
Note the artificial smile while the camera is rolling...
as soon as the cameras stop rolling, she goes back to her usual scowl...
Scowling at the commoners, the useless worker bees
who are not worthy to be in Her presence. :roll:
:x
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
MeanReds
()
Date: May 29, 2007 01:47AM
Tusta opened a temple in New Zealand in around april 1972 and December that year he had left the temple to start a farm in a remote area of northern NSW Australia due to some difficulties he was having (as mentioned below). Bhaktivedanta requested that Siddha move to Australia in December to assist him.
In 73 they had both moved back to New Zealand though I haven't figured out their movements for the entire year. In September/October that year they had demanded the price of the temple from Madhudvisa swami and then left. They hadn't received the money although at the same time in Hawaii Goursundar and Govinda dasi left and sold the temple in Hawaii.
Although attempts to sell the temple in New Zealand were made and Siddha and Tusta returned to Hawaii were the temple was sold in October Tusta sent a letter to AC Bhaktivedanta swami stating there was never any intention to take money or property as his own.
In 73 they had both moved back to New Zealand though I haven't figured out their movements for the entire year. In September/October that year they had demanded the price of the temple from Madhudvisa swami and then left. They hadn't received the money although at the same time in Hawaii Goursundar and Govinda dasi left and sold the temple in Hawaii.
Quote
I have heard that you are having some difficulties … Of course, our serving Krishna is voluntary affair, so what can I say? If you think that is the best choice, I must agree, otherwise you might go away altogether.57
News has come to me that you want to sell our temple to somebody else which I cannot believe. Even that you have been in charge of the New Zealand center, now you have taken it as your personal property and you have demanded from Madhudvisa Swami the price of the temple. This is all amazing to me. I do not know what is your decision. Tusta Krsna has already left and is in Hawaii with Siddha Svarupananda Maharaja. I never believed that again you would go back to your old habits, giving up the Krsna Consciousness Movement in a whimsical way. Please do not do this mistake … Now all of a sudden you have changed that program and taken to your original ways? I am so much aggrieved to receive all this news. For Krsna’s sake, do not do these things. I request Tusta Krsna to go back to New Zealand and take charge of your duties. Please do not leave Krsna. You will not be happy. That is my request.58
I may inform you that I have today sent the following cable to Tusta Krsna Maharaja: “DO NOT SELL NEW ZEALAND TEMPLE TO OTHERS. IF YOU WANT MONEY I SHALL PAY TO YOU. REST ASSURED — BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI.”59
I have not heard from Tusta Krsna or Siddha-Svarupa Goswamis nor do I know anything of their plans to return to New Zealand. Try to convince them to return to our Society and work co-operatively. That they have gone away is not good thing and it is a deviation from our line of parampara. Rather, avoiding faultfinding and anarchy, they should keep our standard and work maturely and not cause factions and splitting. I am not at all pleased at what they have done. 60
Ibid., 73-10-22.Mad (letter to Madhudvisa of October 22, 1973). 59
Ibid., 73-12-15.Mad (letter to Madhudvisa of October 15, 1973). 60
PRABHUPADA 1987b, vol. 5: 2866 (letter to Paramahamsa of July 16, 1975). 61
PRABHUPADA 1982b: 71 (quoting BP 11.17.27). 62
PRABHUPADA 1997, 70-09-14.Hay (letter to Hayagriva of September 14, 1970). 63
73-12-23
Los Angeles
13th December, 1973
Hawaii
My dear Balabhadra Prabhu,
Please accept my blessings. I understand from Sudama Goswami that Goursundar has handed over to you some portion of the proceeds from the sale of the Temple there. I do not know why he has sold the Temple without my permission. He had no
right to do such a thing. I request that you kindly send whatever money he has given you directly to me in Los Angeles by registered post. The old Temple BBT and Spiritual Sky debts may be cleared with it first and the rest should be sent directly to myself. We require huge sums of money for our Temple projects in Vrindaban and Mayapur so we have good use for it.
Goursundar and Siddha-svarupa have almost fallen down. Do not join them. Stay in the association of our Temple and work according to established programs as I have already directed.
I hope this meets you well.
Your ever well wisher,
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
c.c. Sudama Goswami
73-12-24
Los Angeles
13th December, 1973
My dear Govinda dasi,
Please accept my blessings. Sudama Goswami has relayed to me the news of his conversation with you recently. We require just now huge sums of money for our projects in India so I request that you send the check for $20,000.00 to me in Los Angeles by registered post.
Furthermore, please come here to Los Angeles or return to the Temple in Hawaii. Karandhar and Sudama goswami are prepard
to help you in every way. Your husband has gone away so what can be done. But you should return to our Temple and again take up devotional service as I have designed and directed at our Centers.
I hope this meets you well.
Your ever well wisher,
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Los Angeles
18th December, 1973
Kona, Hawaii
My dear Govinda dasi,
Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated December 1, 1973. I thank you very much for
the check for $20,000.00 which has been duly received by me.
I understand however that out of the sale of the Temple, $54,000.00 was taken as net proceeds so where is the balance money? Has Goursundar spent or distributed it? I also understand that Balabhadra has been paid $15,000.00 by Goursundar so $15,000.00 and $20,000.00 makes $35,000.00 so where is the balance of $19,000.00?
Anyway, I beg to request you to arrange for sending the balance money because for our Vrindaban project we require a few lakhs of rupees immediately. In Bombay also we have purchased a large tract of land at Juhu Beach so why not ask Balabhadra to send his $15,000.00 and Goursundar also to send the balance money?
My plan is to come to Hawaii by mid January 1974 when, of course, we shall meet together. I have no ill feelings against Goursundar, rest assured, neither anyone is accusing him or you.
Everyone considers it has been done by some supernatural influence on Goursundar. We suffer on account of our karma--that is a fact. In this material world our karma is responsible for everything. Therefore, due to our work we create our own circumstances. So, if you like to cooperate with our missionary work you are welcome to return back. I have already written a previous letter to you, a copy of which is enclosed.
At the present, I am so pleased that you have found some shelter and an opportunity to preach--it is all by Krsna's Grace. If you like you can come here or if you are satisfied, stay there. At any rate, go on with preaching work--that is our main business.
When we meet in Hawaii we shall discusss everything in detail. In the meantime, kindly induce Balabhadra and Goursundar to send the balance money. I still have very high regard for Goursundar. I have praised him always for being a kind and gentle boy. All of a sudden he has gone crazy even to the extent of abandoning you. It will all be forgotten history if you again begin preaching work sincerely.
I hope this letter finds you well.
Your ever well-wisher,
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
[krishnascience.com]
Although attempts to sell the temple in New Zealand were made and Siddha and Tusta returned to Hawaii were the temple was sold in October Tusta sent a letter to AC Bhaktivedanta swami stating there was never any intention to take money or property as his own.
Quote
73-11-06
New Delhi
7th November, 1973
Sunset Beach, Hawaii
My Dear Tusta Krsna Maharaj:
Please accept my blessings. I thank you very much for your telegram dated October 29 reading as follows:
``DEAR SRILA PRABHUPAD, PLEASE ACCEPT MY HEART AT YOUR FEET RECEIVED YOUR LETTER AND TELEGRAM TODAY TEMPLE WILL NOT BE SOLD ALL PAPERS TO BE SIGNED OVER TO YOU NEVER INTENDED TO CLAIM PROPERtY OR MONEY AS MY OWN DETAILED LETTER FOLLOWS PLEASE FORGIVE ANY CONFUSION OR ANXIETY MY BLUNDERS HAVE CAUSED YOU--YOUR SERVANT TUSTA''
I am at present in New Delhi awaiting for our festival here, so your telegram has been redirected from Bombay. I am so much pleased to read it because I know that all of you, Siddha Swarupa Maharaj, Sudama Vipra Maharaj, and yourself, are all good souls, and so I also know that Goursundar is also of this same level, but I do not know why this disruption has taken place.
If there is any misunderstanding with the GBC men, that can be readjusted by mutual understanding. I wanted to see you all to mitigate this misunderstanding, but I was very busy in Bombay for the same Juhu land of Mr. Nair. Perhaps you remember that you introduced Mr. Nair to me. Now he is dead and gone, but he created so many obstacles. So I had to pay them so many lakhs of rupees black, but now the position is that it is purchased, but still there is a litle discrepancy. I hope this will also be squared up without delay.
So kindly take my word and do not leave our society. If you cannot agree with the GBC, I can take up your matter personally and do the needful. I love you all very much, and if you go away and stay independently that will be a great shock for me. I want to meet you all together. Let me know where I shall go to meet you. Just now I have received the news that in Hawaii the tulsi plants are drying for want of watering. How has Govinda dasi left the tulsi plants which she nourished so lovingly? Please therefore all of you go to your respective positions and revive your devotional activities without any further delay, and if you cannot cope with the GBC men, which I suppose there must have been some disagreement, I shall deal with you directly. But, do not leave the Krsna consciousness movement, at any cost.
If possible kindly let me know where is Goursundar. On my behalf please request him to come back to the temple and save the tulsi plants. Ask Govinda dasi also on my behalf to do this without delay.
Kindly treat this letter as very urgent and do the needful.
Awaiting your early reply.
I hope this meets you in good health.
Your ever well wisher,
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
[krishnascience.com]
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
MeanReds
()
Date: May 29, 2007 02:09AM
Hari Sauri wrote the Transcendental Diaries which is a very large trilogy of books documenting his experiences travelling with AC Bhaktivedanta Swami and serving as his personal secretary.
The following is a brief extraction regarding Tusta and New Zealand. There are a few accounts of Siddhasvarupa Swami and Siddhasvarupa Maharaj and many other names of devotees fortunately it is indexed. I have not had time to go through the entire set of books yet.
Volume 1 page 43
Page 36
Page 38
The following is a brief extraction regarding Tusta and New Zealand. There are a few accounts of Siddhasvarupa Swami and Siddhasvarupa Maharaj and many other names of devotees fortunately it is indexed. I have not had time to go through the entire set of books yet.
Volume 1 page 43
Quote
The Auckland temple is a large, two-storey suburban house with a spacious garden and scattered fruit trees. The property was originally purchased by Tusta Krsna Swami before he and the entire population of the temple abandoned it to got their own way in 1973.
Page 36
Quote
Some new controversy has also arisen over Prabhupad's upcoming trip to New Zealand. News has filtered in that Tusta's men there are informing everyone that Prabhupada is going to their farm, but not to ISKCON temple. I've noticed that when discussing the two groups, Prabhupada always refers to ISKCON as "our camp" and Tusta's group as "them"
Page 38
Quote
Lastly he replied to a letter from Tusta Krsna Swami in New Zealand. Tusta Krsna Maharaj belongs to a group of devotees who split away from ISKCON several years ago. They disagreed with certain methods of book distribution and the managerial structure within ISKCON. The leader of this group is a former ISKCON sanyassi named Siddha Svarupananda Goswami. Although members of this group have their own ideas about spreading Krsna Consciousness Tusta Krsna Maharaj writes to Srila Prabhupada regularly.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
cultreporter
()
Date: May 29, 2007 03:06AM
Quote
the snail
My memory does not serve me well as to what year it was that Curly was destined to exit this world in such a dramatic way, however to my knoweledge he was doing it on his own behest ( it was said that he enjoyed making bombs and blowing inert objects up) There was never a hint that he was encouraged to blow up abotion clinics or abbatoirs, from some higher source ( apart from something he felt justified in doing, as cow killing and abortion was against Vedic philosphy) His own Krishna Jihad.
I should have said in my last post 1977 was the year that abortion was made legal in NZ, not 1974. The story that came to me was that Tusta was giving a lecture where he made a statement to the effect that "abortion clinics should be blown up" and that this Curly Dave who did not consider himself to be a good enough devotee took this to heart and thought well here is something that I am able to do to serve Krishna. There was no sugguestion that someone actually ordered him to do it in this version either only that the mentality that was fostered among followers and the attitudes of the those presenting themselves as spiritual authorities was his motivation.
When Siddha talks about abortion he refers to it being a symptom of people being considered disposable and not recognising the true identity and integrity of living beings as spirit soul "part and parcel of God" - ironic (or rather moronic) considering that he dictates to his followers that their own children should infact be disposed of because they are not "part and parcel" of himself.
The temple selling is a bizarre event, note that the temple in Hawaii was also sold by Siddha and Goursundara and the tulsi abandoned, so there was two seperate incidents of this nature in the same month and Tamal Krishna das a controversial figure and rumored chief adversary of Siddha (primarily by Siddha) who caused disruption in the movement by making bold public statements that ACB was senile and lacked control is alledged by some ISKCON reformers to have conspired to sell or give away the temple in NZ to undermine ACB's authority.
When the temple selling was first raised here it was postulated that if this story was true that there would have most certainly been some form of legal action which is a reasonable enough assumption however this is not how things were done in ISKCON where the culture was to keep any form of controversy or sugguestion that ACB was not achieving his goals particularly in a way that sugguested divine providence internal. The child abuse was one example of this, as was the incident where Siddha's followers brutally attacked another devotee in the temple. The main agenda in resolving the issues with selling the temples was to get the money back, which in the case of NZ it was by all available accounts returned and all was forgiven.
Quote
I think what has surprised me and found quite bewildering is the sectretive nature of SoI people or whatever they call themselves.
They themselves do not call themselves anything although they are pretty universally referred to as "the Haribols" which among the devotees I met was not appreciated. It struck me as interesting reading the above that while ISKCON devotees never officially named themselves "Hare Krishnas" this was the name that they were given while Siddha's followers became identifiable by that which meants "chant the names of the Lord" the identity seems well defined as those who worshipped Krishna and those who worship service, and the "cult of devotional service"
The most common term I heard used within the cult was "devotees" or "people who chant". There was never any mentioning of Aro-tik or temple because there is neither. I never went to a gathering where there was any form of offerring made or any form of deity worship. I saw altars many times, but they alwys remained closed. These things are not being taught by Siddha's followers their focus is on the "Yoga Lifestyle" vegetarianism and creating benign euphenisms for devotional practices such as "meditation on beads".
The concept of a charitable mission which was not initially mine was to try to off-set the presentation of Krishna Consciousness in such a way and provide for those who had theological concerns to do something constructive with them. At the current time this is not going ahead simply because devotees en masse have no interest in teaching others and I personally am more occupied with research and non-theological issues through MAYA (Meditation and Yoga Awareness). I am a firm believer that one must be the change that they want in the world. I could not in good conscience defend a religion that is a selfish endeavour for self salvation throughout despite the lofty notions of having the name of Krishna heard in every town and village. As it is the names of Krishna are more often heard and associated with negative aspects such as cults and overbearing public solicitation of money and child sexual abuse than any spiritual connotation. Perhaps there is a higher reason for this.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
cultreporter
()
Date: May 29, 2007 06:43AM
Here is a link to a Gaudiya Repurcussions thread about a discussion with ACB and two of his disciples that were living outside the temple and going about their own business in Hawaii, as was Siddha and his followers, yet they still felt the need to come to ACB for clarification of some issues and still felt that they were disciples of ACB.
[www.gaudiyadiscussions.com]
These two disciples were disagreeing with ISKCON as was Siddha and thinking that they could facilitate improvement of the movement. ISKCON felt that living outside the temple and not following the rules set out by ACB that they were incapable of making any improvement even to themselves.
This conversation shows how unbelievable statements contained within ACB's books could not be explained. Most of the time when you read about Siddha leaving ISKCON and those who were seeking to leave ISKCON to follow him had to do with Siddha not wanting to sell books - could there be a connection here? If Siddha was not able to explain the philosphy and present "facts" that others could find believable then this would undermine his presentation of possessing absolute authority.
Siddha's self-made philosophy of the "Science of Identity" is wholly simplistic and one will not find any references to the Puranas or any to the Krishna books which include fantastic stories about kings with 4 billion servants and cities made of gold and jewels, the size of the universe and the location of the moon and other "science" which are incrediblle to the vast majority of the population and scientifically and archaeologically invalidated. Infact most of his books rarely mention Krishna at all and Siddha sits back allowing his disciples to do all the work while he personally selects which questions he will answer, even scripting those for his television performances and relates his "scientific" validation of Krishna Consciousness to contemporary issues rather than referring to any examples in Srimad Bhagavatam and other scriptures.
Siddha wanted to lead others to not live within the temple, shave their heads, wear robes or carry a danda (stick) so that they would not look like freaks asserting that the perception of being freakish would damage the ability to give Krishna to others. Today he instructs his followers to do their rounds on crowd counters rather than Japa beads and to not wear beads in public. There are no temples in SoI where it could be said to come here to learn about Krishna, but there is no shortage of meditation centres and retreats where one can come to learn and practice the Yoga Sound and stress relief. There may be pictures of Krishna on the walls, but there is never any pictures of Narasingha-deva because the reaction may be ooooh there is a man with four arms and the head of a lion that's really weird. Infact in the centres in Australia at least one of the most widely distributed pictures is of Radha and Krishna with white skin - although scripture is very specific about the appearance of Krishna and they are not presented in this way anywhere else. Today most of his disciples like Gabbard and others that have been involved in public affairs cannot confess to even believing in Krishna lest they not be accepted by the public which they hope to be able to gain a position of authority over with the ideal of being able to do Krishna's will. So his attempts to improve on the ability of ISKCON and re-interpret the instrctions of his own spiritual master have only made things worse as "Krishna" has become a dirty word in Science of Identity.
Further information:
Subal (an early follower of Butler was apparently the Sannyasi who asks the boy to have sex with him when he was in charge of the temple in Hawaii.)
[www.harekrsna.com]
A couple of months after the discussion :
Living outside the association of devotees is dangerous and unnecessary. You must, however, give up the association of Jamadagni and Kanupriya. Their company will not be beneficial to your Krsna consciousness.
[devotees.krishna.org]
[www.gaudiyadiscussions.com]
These two disciples were disagreeing with ISKCON as was Siddha and thinking that they could facilitate improvement of the movement. ISKCON felt that living outside the temple and not following the rules set out by ACB that they were incapable of making any improvement even to themselves.
This conversation shows how unbelievable statements contained within ACB's books could not be explained. Most of the time when you read about Siddha leaving ISKCON and those who were seeking to leave ISKCON to follow him had to do with Siddha not wanting to sell books - could there be a connection here? If Siddha was not able to explain the philosphy and present "facts" that others could find believable then this would undermine his presentation of possessing absolute authority.
Siddha's self-made philosophy of the "Science of Identity" is wholly simplistic and one will not find any references to the Puranas or any to the Krishna books which include fantastic stories about kings with 4 billion servants and cities made of gold and jewels, the size of the universe and the location of the moon and other "science" which are incrediblle to the vast majority of the population and scientifically and archaeologically invalidated. Infact most of his books rarely mention Krishna at all and Siddha sits back allowing his disciples to do all the work while he personally selects which questions he will answer, even scripting those for his television performances and relates his "scientific" validation of Krishna Consciousness to contemporary issues rather than referring to any examples in Srimad Bhagavatam and other scriptures.
Siddha wanted to lead others to not live within the temple, shave their heads, wear robes or carry a danda (stick) so that they would not look like freaks asserting that the perception of being freakish would damage the ability to give Krishna to others. Today he instructs his followers to do their rounds on crowd counters rather than Japa beads and to not wear beads in public. There are no temples in SoI where it could be said to come here to learn about Krishna, but there is no shortage of meditation centres and retreats where one can come to learn and practice the Yoga Sound and stress relief. There may be pictures of Krishna on the walls, but there is never any pictures of Narasingha-deva because the reaction may be ooooh there is a man with four arms and the head of a lion that's really weird. Infact in the centres in Australia at least one of the most widely distributed pictures is of Radha and Krishna with white skin - although scripture is very specific about the appearance of Krishna and they are not presented in this way anywhere else. Today most of his disciples like Gabbard and others that have been involved in public affairs cannot confess to even believing in Krishna lest they not be accepted by the public which they hope to be able to gain a position of authority over with the ideal of being able to do Krishna's will. So his attempts to improve on the ability of ISKCON and re-interpret the instrctions of his own spiritual master have only made things worse as "Krishna" has become a dirty word in Science of Identity.
Further information:
Subal (an early follower of Butler was apparently the Sannyasi who asks the boy to have sex with him when he was in charge of the temple in Hawaii.)
[www.harekrsna.com]
A couple of months after the discussion :
Living outside the association of devotees is dangerous and unnecessary. You must, however, give up the association of Jamadagni and Kanupriya. Their company will not be beneficial to your Krsna consciousness.
[devotees.krishna.org]
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
zelig
()
Date: May 30, 2007 03:31AM
[i:fa46b17558]I’m getting the feeling that if I post one word, “sigh...” or “ah-choo” that I will get pages of personal attacks on this forum. This is for the record, not for my critics, but other reader’s information.
I have a right to post here as much as anyone else. I have ignored and chosen not to respond to the insults, flaming, and many of the false allegations against me personally, (which do not belong on this forum) and misquotes. I am only going to address the following (as it is too tiring and boring to do more). After this, the conversation is ended. Period. The critics have had ample pages to present their side. This is mine. I therefore respectfully suggest that any attempts to connect me with the evils of Chris Butler are at best misguided and should be avoided. After this, I will only discuss topics, ideas and beliefs related to Chris Butler and cults. Thanks in advance for your kind consideration.
1. [b:fa46b17558]“I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the communist party.” [/b:fa46b17558]
I am not now, nor have I ever been, a defender of or apologist for the Soviet Union or the SOI. I am not now, nor have I ever been, a supporter of Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Castro, Peron, Guevara, Zorro the Great*, Zorba the Greek, Hank the Angry Drunken Dwarf, Mr. Burns, Krusty the Clown (even though he is Jewish), Dr. Evil, Sandman, or Chris Butler. I am not Chris Butler. I am not Chris Butler’s lieutenant or dead mother’s channeled ghost. I am not acting as an agent of the CIA, Opus Dei, The Illuminati, SMERSH, SPECTRE, The Boy Scouts of America, or SOI. Anyone who has ever carefully[/i:fa46b17558] read my posts will easily discover this.
2. Cultreporter wrote that I “PM’d” her 5X a day, as if I was obsessively communicating. In reality, I was sending her probably the only copy left of “Sai Speaks” page by page as I had time to scan and send (I work for a living and have a family). This was so she could critically review it on her blog. I also sent her other things. Info she published on her website. So to continually put forward that I am an SOI agent sent to discredit her or am CB himself, as Cultreporter’s recent PM to me suggested, is absurd.
3. Cultreporter also implied that I was trying to obtain her personal address for nefarious reasons. Request for her address was so I could mail some old tapes and other CB artifacts. If she remembered correctly, I did not ask for her personal address. I told her to send me the address of her lawyer (which at the time she claimed to be in touch with one). She did send me an address.
I decided against sending any more things because of her, IMO, unscrupulous use of information, coupled with my suspicions that she put up a phony devotee blog on Xanga, and nasty personal attacks against me. The materials that I was going to send were old and nothing of real value to the cause. The main item I was going to send her was a huge patch of the lion god [i:fa46b17558]nrshimhadev[/i:fa46b17558], in mint condition, that I was going to send as a surprise gift. Even though I do not share her same beliefs in the Hindu myths, (of which she wrote extensively about in her old blog) I knew she was very fond of this particular member of the pantheon.
4. Regarding the planting of information about her personal life that got back to her, I wonder why she feels the need to engage in subterfuge at all. At any rate, everything I wrote in my post on 5-15-07 titled “cults are bad for children and all living things” was solely from information gleaned from the internet. I was not alone in wondering what was going on, so I presented the info, as it was odd. Now, I really do not care.
5. My many ISP’s? Simple. I travel frequently. I pick up wireless connections depending on where I am. I post as Zelig and only on this RR forum because of Rick’s privacy policies.
6. IMO, there have been a few times where Cultreporter and co. have misused this forum by focusing anger against me personally. Cultreporter has additionally misunderstood and taken offence to things that I have written that had nothing to do with her. I have not publicly or privately lobbied to have her censored, as she and MeanRed have attempted.
7. There is one thing that has really been the most inaccurate, outrageous, and flagrant abuse of information on this forum. It is the English language. Frankly, the most irritating thing on this forum has been the improper spelling of the words no one as “noone”. There, I have said it. It is out of the bag. I’ve suppressed my anger way too long. I am not guiltless here, but RR does not allow us to edit once the offending grammar has been sent.
8. If you find yourself in dire need of a rhetorical club with which to beat me, feel free to PM me and I'll help you find one. There are plenty of things that I've actually said, done, or believed in which are fair game. It would be great to have a ‘Search’ button on RR so you can do this on your own. I'm a big believer in self-sufficiency, but that does not make me a Butler apologist.
9. Everyone on this forum is entitled to their opinions and I am entitled to mine. But, I will no longer read or respond to people who have flamed me.
P.S. - *I actually have no position on Zorro's lawless vigilanteism ‘out in the night when the full moon is bright’, but I support his right to pseudonymity.
[img:fa46b17558]http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j104/Yodaplanet/zorro.jpg[/img:fa46b17558]
"I have no quarrel with history, but I am often appalled by the people who make it." - Don Diego de la Vega (aka Zorro), in the episode "Zorro Fights His Father."
I have a right to post here as much as anyone else. I have ignored and chosen not to respond to the insults, flaming, and many of the false allegations against me personally, (which do not belong on this forum) and misquotes. I am only going to address the following (as it is too tiring and boring to do more). After this, the conversation is ended. Period. The critics have had ample pages to present their side. This is mine. I therefore respectfully suggest that any attempts to connect me with the evils of Chris Butler are at best misguided and should be avoided. After this, I will only discuss topics, ideas and beliefs related to Chris Butler and cults. Thanks in advance for your kind consideration.
1. [b:fa46b17558]“I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the communist party.” [/b:fa46b17558]
I am not now, nor have I ever been, a defender of or apologist for the Soviet Union or the SOI. I am not now, nor have I ever been, a supporter of Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Castro, Peron, Guevara, Zorro the Great*, Zorba the Greek, Hank the Angry Drunken Dwarf, Mr. Burns, Krusty the Clown (even though he is Jewish), Dr. Evil, Sandman, or Chris Butler. I am not Chris Butler. I am not Chris Butler’s lieutenant or dead mother’s channeled ghost. I am not acting as an agent of the CIA, Opus Dei, The Illuminati, SMERSH, SPECTRE, The Boy Scouts of America, or SOI. Anyone who has ever carefully[/i:fa46b17558] read my posts will easily discover this.
2. Cultreporter wrote that I “PM’d” her 5X a day, as if I was obsessively communicating. In reality, I was sending her probably the only copy left of “Sai Speaks” page by page as I had time to scan and send (I work for a living and have a family). This was so she could critically review it on her blog. I also sent her other things. Info she published on her website. So to continually put forward that I am an SOI agent sent to discredit her or am CB himself, as Cultreporter’s recent PM to me suggested, is absurd.
3. Cultreporter also implied that I was trying to obtain her personal address for nefarious reasons. Request for her address was so I could mail some old tapes and other CB artifacts. If she remembered correctly, I did not ask for her personal address. I told her to send me the address of her lawyer (which at the time she claimed to be in touch with one). She did send me an address.
I decided against sending any more things because of her, IMO, unscrupulous use of information, coupled with my suspicions that she put up a phony devotee blog on Xanga, and nasty personal attacks against me. The materials that I was going to send were old and nothing of real value to the cause. The main item I was going to send her was a huge patch of the lion god [i:fa46b17558]nrshimhadev[/i:fa46b17558], in mint condition, that I was going to send as a surprise gift. Even though I do not share her same beliefs in the Hindu myths, (of which she wrote extensively about in her old blog) I knew she was very fond of this particular member of the pantheon.
4. Regarding the planting of information about her personal life that got back to her, I wonder why she feels the need to engage in subterfuge at all. At any rate, everything I wrote in my post on 5-15-07 titled “cults are bad for children and all living things” was solely from information gleaned from the internet. I was not alone in wondering what was going on, so I presented the info, as it was odd. Now, I really do not care.
5. My many ISP’s? Simple. I travel frequently. I pick up wireless connections depending on where I am. I post as Zelig and only on this RR forum because of Rick’s privacy policies.
6. IMO, there have been a few times where Cultreporter and co. have misused this forum by focusing anger against me personally. Cultreporter has additionally misunderstood and taken offence to things that I have written that had nothing to do with her. I have not publicly or privately lobbied to have her censored, as she and MeanRed have attempted.
7. There is one thing that has really been the most inaccurate, outrageous, and flagrant abuse of information on this forum. It is the English language. Frankly, the most irritating thing on this forum has been the improper spelling of the words no one as “noone”. There, I have said it. It is out of the bag. I’ve suppressed my anger way too long. I am not guiltless here, but RR does not allow us to edit once the offending grammar has been sent.
8. If you find yourself in dire need of a rhetorical club with which to beat me, feel free to PM me and I'll help you find one. There are plenty of things that I've actually said, done, or believed in which are fair game. It would be great to have a ‘Search’ button on RR so you can do this on your own. I'm a big believer in self-sufficiency, but that does not make me a Butler apologist.
9. Everyone on this forum is entitled to their opinions and I am entitled to mine. But, I will no longer read or respond to people who have flamed me.
P.S. - *I actually have no position on Zorro's lawless vigilanteism ‘out in the night when the full moon is bright’, but I support his right to pseudonymity.
[img:fa46b17558]http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j104/Yodaplanet/zorro.jpg[/img:fa46b17558]
"I have no quarrel with history, but I am often appalled by the people who make it." - Don Diego de la Vega (aka Zorro), in the episode "Zorro Fights His Father."
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: May 30, 2007 04:07AM
Thanks Zelig.
No one should attack you personally.
Personal attacks are not only against the rules of this forum, they are counter-productive on this thread.
Thanks for taking the time to make the thoughtful and well-written entry.
BTW--the reason editing was deleted from this forum was due to the abuse of editing.
People would start a thread and/or lose an argument at the board and then decide to delete all their posts, which often left a thread rather bare and incoherent.
That's the reason for the current editing and deletion policy, i.e. post it and live with it.
[b:60337e3e00]Follow-up note: As it turned out "Zelig" was an apologist and a clever one. He came to this thread under false pretenses, first as "Initiate" and later as "Zelig" His purpose was to undermine this thread and spin apologies for Chris Butler. I apologize for being taken in by him, but eventually learned the truth from Zelig himself, who admitted his previous indentity through private messaging, after others on this board exposed him.[/b:60337e3e00]
No one should attack you personally.
Personal attacks are not only against the rules of this forum, they are counter-productive on this thread.
Thanks for taking the time to make the thoughtful and well-written entry.
BTW--the reason editing was deleted from this forum was due to the abuse of editing.
People would start a thread and/or lose an argument at the board and then decide to delete all their posts, which often left a thread rather bare and incoherent.
That's the reason for the current editing and deletion policy, i.e. post it and live with it.
[b:60337e3e00]Follow-up note: As it turned out "Zelig" was an apologist and a clever one. He came to this thread under false pretenses, first as "Initiate" and later as "Zelig" His purpose was to undermine this thread and spin apologies for Chris Butler. I apologize for being taken in by him, but eventually learned the truth from Zelig himself, who admitted his previous indentity through private messaging, after others on this board exposed him.[/b:60337e3e00]
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
cultreporter
()
Date: May 30, 2007 04:55AM
I wrote the beow post before RR came in and although I find it very telling that he had to tell zelig the reason that deleting had been disabled ie post it and live with it I have had enough of this. Last time zelig attacked me and I left RR asked me to stay now dim shady is getting kudos when he started the personal insults? You respond to Scientology's dossier on you Rick boring and counterproductive yes but I didnt steer everything in that direction. I love this site and I have a few times credited the work Rick has done with literally saving my life and a great inspiration so this whole affair sucks to say the least. My website and everything else that is going on will keep going on but I wont be back here.
Again zelig the final word on my credibility which I assure you as long as I am a member of this forum you will never have is still fuck off. That is not to say not to post here, it's not my forum, remember these bold statements about rights to post next time you start attacking people and driving them away. Your allegations get more and more and your exposure of Chris amounts to [b:cf45b051f2]Nuthin[/b:cf45b051f2].
What is this "I am not the only one" bullshit BTW - Do you want to identify them or will take a shot at it? Maybe this page could do with some illustrations in your opinion. If I'm not scared of SoI I surely am not going to take any shit from the likes of you. Oh yeah I dunno what I would have done without constant advice about my personal life and admonishments for picking on the poor cult people. So now you were worried about me doing research on the net?? I have people here that look after me ffs send an email dont try to attack me and then lie about it. I genuinely liked you you made some cool cartoons and everything I didnt need you adding to the shit I have been through because of SoI lately, but I'll live.
You gave me some names that it true, what did you think I was planning to do with them? Which so did about 20 other people. I named Brendon Rice on here way back and you didnt jump in to defend him I notice. I still hang out with devotees (other gurus dont have the aversion to thinking that Chris) gossip moves fast if you know the right camps to align with and the right questions to ask.
Why dont you start a thread called Cara James Exposed and kick start your own movement?? it's not so hard to find the courage of your convictions if you infact have any. Noone but cult apologists attack cult activists and your primary use of this forum of late is to just to shit all over me personally and everything that I do.
Some people call me the space cowboy,yeah
Some call me the gangster of love
Some people call me Maurice
Cause I speak of the pompitus of love.
People talk about me, baby
Say I'm doin' you wrong, doin' you wrong
Well, don't you worry baby
Don't worry Cause I'm right here, right here, right here,
right here at home
Cause I'm a picker
I'm a grinner
I'm a lover
And I'm a sinner
I play my music in the sun.
I'm a joker
I'm a smoker
I'm a midnight toker
I get my loving on the run Wooo Woooo[/color:cf45b051f2]
Again zelig the final word on my credibility which I assure you as long as I am a member of this forum you will never have is still fuck off. That is not to say not to post here, it's not my forum, remember these bold statements about rights to post next time you start attacking people and driving them away. Your allegations get more and more and your exposure of Chris amounts to [b:cf45b051f2]Nuthin[/b:cf45b051f2].
What is this "I am not the only one" bullshit BTW - Do you want to identify them or will take a shot at it? Maybe this page could do with some illustrations in your opinion. If I'm not scared of SoI I surely am not going to take any shit from the likes of you. Oh yeah I dunno what I would have done without constant advice about my personal life and admonishments for picking on the poor cult people. So now you were worried about me doing research on the net?? I have people here that look after me ffs send an email dont try to attack me and then lie about it. I genuinely liked you you made some cool cartoons and everything I didnt need you adding to the shit I have been through because of SoI lately, but I'll live.
You gave me some names that it true, what did you think I was planning to do with them? Which so did about 20 other people. I named Brendon Rice on here way back and you didnt jump in to defend him I notice. I still hang out with devotees (other gurus dont have the aversion to thinking that Chris) gossip moves fast if you know the right camps to align with and the right questions to ask.
Why dont you start a thread called Cara James Exposed and kick start your own movement?? it's not so hard to find the courage of your convictions if you infact have any. Noone but cult apologists attack cult activists and your primary use of this forum of late is to just to shit all over me personally and everything that I do.
Some people call me the space cowboy,yeah
Some call me the gangster of love
Some people call me Maurice
Cause I speak of the pompitus of love.
People talk about me, baby
Say I'm doin' you wrong, doin' you wrong
Well, don't you worry baby
Don't worry Cause I'm right here, right here, right here,
right here at home
Cause I'm a picker
I'm a grinner
I'm a lover
And I'm a sinner
I play my music in the sun.
I'm a joker
I'm a smoker
I'm a midnight toker
I get my loving on the run Wooo Woooo[/color:cf45b051f2]
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