Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Date: July 17, 2015 09:20AM

Rama Das (slave name) Wrote:
> North/South america only, but an amazing
> documentary about cults, mostly in New Zealand.
> One cult leader also accepts foot baths! ha ha
> []

YouTube displayed this error when I clicked your link: "The uploader has not made this video available in your country."

I did locate another copy on Hulu available at this link:


Quote below the video:

"A band of people who share the same beliefs, no matter how outlandish those beliefs seem, is not necessarily a cult—that term is reserved for groups that control followers through manipulation, intimidation, and blind obedience to a self-appointed leader."


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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Date: July 17, 2015 11:38PM

That documentary is mind blowing.

Seemingly all NZ cults, most make SOI look a little mild in comparison but that is why SOI have lasted so long.

If it had gone as far as some other cults, it all would have been over long ago.

i put the video up also, so let me know if both Flash's links don't work

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Date: July 17, 2015 11:49PM

Key terms used like TIME CONTROL control through sleep deprivation and large work load, huge in SOI.

Most disciples only slept 5 or 6 hours even less per night, boasting about how little they needed.

INFORMATION CONTROL control through limiting access to outside information

RELATIONSHIP CONTROL controlling all relationships between cult members and people outside the group.
Breaking up families, etc

Many break downs of key control techniques

Absolutely amazing cast of characters who have escaped, all amazing stories.

Part 1: []

Part 2:

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Child Abuse in the Cult of Chris Butler
Date: July 17, 2015 11:56PM

I’d like to draw attention (and the search engines) to the brave testimony of a cult survivor. We could all do her a favor by promoting her astounding videos revealing the truth about Chris Butler.

“My name is Lalita. I grew up in a religious group that is subservient to cult leader Chris Butler. I got out when I was 19, but my family and some of my extended family are still very involved in this cult. This is a channel to discuss my experiences, and share ideas, music etc that have come from it.”

Home page for Lalita’s video channel.

“This is my second video about growing up in the Science of Identity Foundation under the leadership of Chris Butler. It explains the various instances of child abuse that I know of within the group…”

At minute mark 21:14, Lalita focuses on one example of child sexual abuse within the Science of Identity Foundation.

Take a few minutes to listen to this shocking story about a friend of Lalita’s enduring sexual abuse by her brother at age 6 to 10 and the parental neglect.

Link to the Child Abuse video at minute mark 21:14:

The actual letter that Lalita quotes, blurred to avoid copyright issues. Note the phrases “I’m so messed up”, “my sex life”, “(age) 6 molested” and “14 Raped”.

Lalita apologizes to her old friend for not speaking up, for not getting help, and for urging her to go back to her abusive family. It was not until after she left the cult, that Lalita was able to see clearly. She really beats herself up, but I truly believe she has now done the right thing for her friend and for the countless other children abused in the cult of Chris Butler.


A copy of this post on my blog:

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Re Child Abuse: Exposing the Cult of Chris Butler Video
Posted by: Vera City ()
Date: July 18, 2015 12:41AM

Hey Eigener Herr,
You did a great job articulating the issue. Thanks for speaking up for the children of the cult.

"Child Abuse: Exposing the Cult of Chris Butler"]

I once heard a story of a child in the cult who was very happy going to school, but after the "order" from Butler was given, the parents were in conflict. The child did not want to leave the school. She loved it there. Teachers and other mothers witnessed that the child had been happy, engaged, had friends, and never complained. So the mother started to instill fear into the child telling her that the karmis are demons and that the Yama dutas will come for all the people who do not worship Krishna. The child was told that the songs they sang will lead them to hell. The child began to withdraw and show symptoms of anxiety at school. She was only 6 years old. After these cult parents had sufficiently twisted their kid's head, they pulled her out of school.

Isn't it ironic. Your mother fat shaming you on one hand and then telling you about how the Children of God used their appearances to recruit people into their cult --- and then contradicting herself by telling you that you should look good to represent Butler's cult. Talk about Cognitive dissonance! But the implication was that you were not good enough, which is how Butler makes all of his disciples feel. It's the currency he pays them with for their slave labor.

The mango story is even more ridiculous because he had to import mangoes at great expense from another island when mangoes were available where he was. But not good enough for g0d I guess. All of the cooks have a hard time because he has extreme issues regarding his food. I know of at least one cook who became suicidal.

Eigener Herr At 21:20
“If this is the way he is treating his disciples, they are then going on and treating their children the same way. And it all comes from him [Butler] in my opinion…in my experience, it all comes from him – the way people act towards their children is because they are trying to please him and keep him happy.”

Eigener Herr At 27:00
“If you know about the abuses in this group speak up. Tell your stories. Speak up for the kids because they can’t speak up for themselves…when they are that young. Don’t just sweep it under the rug. The only power that they have is our silence. People not speaking up - you are giving them power and you are taking away the voices of the children in this group. And you have got to speak up. I am speaking up on their behalf.”

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: AC4711 ()
Date: July 19, 2015 07:02AM

The adults who raised their kids in this insane cult are as good as child abusers. Any parent raising their kids in any form of organized religion are child abusers. these parents in particular

- Denied their children proper educations that handicaps and made it more difficult to function in society. ( all at the wishes and desires of Mr. Chris Butler, the ring leader, so he could have more mindless slaves serving his insane self)
- Lied to their children and kept them away from their blood relatives who could have stepped in and protected them from this abuse.

I cannot even begin to describe the selfishness of all of these disciples. The hurt they inflicted on their children leave permanent scars. I don't look at the parents and disciples as ignorant or helpless, I see them as willing participants in purposeful Cruelty to children. That is unforgivable. We as a society hate and despise adults who sexually abuse children... yet the other forms of abuse are never held to the same standard... but the truth is ... it is the same. So all of the adults who raised their children in this cult, are as good as a group of people purposefully standing around and chanting and cheering as they watch children get sexually abused. I applaud all of you who are working to tear this insidious child abusing cult down to the fucking ground. The worst of the worst are the ones who abuse innocent children.. and these people (and I have a hard time calling them people they have lost their humanity, they are nothing but black holes)

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: dharmabum ()
Date: July 19, 2015 07:46AM

"Gay and Lesbian Rights” are Special Rights

by: Allan Tibby

Sexual Responsibility Philippines

It concludes:

In such a brief paper it is impossible to examine all of the issues

and present all of the complexities, facts and arguments surrounding

homosexuality and ‘gay rights’. It has been our intention in this

summary to only present an introduction to the issue and look at only

a few examples of the entrance of the international gay agenda to the

Philippines. But we must accept certain realities. The activist

homosexuals desire to radically alter current society and are engaging

in an organized propaganda war to do this. Rueda & Schwartz have

stated in their book, ‘GAYS, AIDS AND YOU’;

The homosexual ideology implies the intent to rear range our

perceptions, lifestyles, and legal system. In the strict sense of the

term, this change is revolutionary. It requires, if it is to be

effectively implemented, the careful and gradual application and

transfer of power. The ho mosexual movement is thus not primarily a

philanthropic or educational enterprise, but a hard­nosed political

movement bent on changing our society.

We unfortunately live in an environment where open and honest debate

becomes almost impossible. Anyone seeking to clearly define issues

gays consider important to them will be shouted down with cries of

homophobia and bigotry! Not wanting to appear bigoted most people

will simply shrink back and allow the homosexual advances to continue

unquestioned and unopposed.

To Allan Tibby:

If that is your foundational truth, bring it out in the open. You can come up with seemingly valid social issues – these are just facades -- the real issue here is what lies behind. Or, beneath. Why hide your core belief? Those who make excuses of being denied rights to free speech and expression by overlying forces in society belie the ideals and achievements of an open and modern world. Do not dress up your dogma in a trendy and mainstream fashion. That's disingenuous! The truth is, if your underlying belief is corrupt to the core, hypocritical, deceptive and bigoted, whatever issues you have on the surface are invalidated. You cannot pretend to care and have no right to speak for society.

Do not try to deny a child meaningful life – he or she is entitled to his/her creativity and potentials. In this world, the only life that matters is a life that is fully lived. You can suppress it, you can delay it, but the transformative time will inevitably come to every child – he or she will ask questions. One thing you can’t change in a human life is change itself. Transformation is a force independent of culture, dogma and orientation. In the end, it can’t really be denied. It’s a primal calling to connect with the world; because, no matter how dark and insane the child is taught it be, the world is our true mother. Religion is no match for that truth.

Remember, unlike the brain-dead disciples, they chose their lot as their transformation; the children did not.

Thanks to Flashlight On Roaches

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2015 08:02AM by dharmabum.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: eigenerherr ()
Date: July 20, 2015 05:49AM

Hi everyone,

Sorry I haven't been very responsive, there's just been a lot to deal with after talking about all this stuff. I'll try to respond to all of the posts in some sort of order.

Obviously my family haven't taken it very well, and I'm trying to come to terms with the fact that I'll probably never see them or my nephew's again. I can't and don't want to force them to see things from my point of view, but it does become very frustrating that they can't see the obvious hypocracy of Chris Butler's regime. I stupidly thought we could have some sort of relationship if I just ignored that side of things, but then one day it occurred to me that for my own child, I would have to write in my will that if something happened to his father and I, my parents could never have unsupervised access to him, because I wont subject him to a life of following Chris Butler. And that's what sparked all of this, because there is just something so very very wrong with having to do that.

Thank you Flash for supporting and promoting the videos, I really appreciate it. The more people that see them, the better. There's already a few others creeping out of the shadows. Hopefully more start to ask questions and look at things critically. I was born into that group, and knew nothing else and I still could see how wrong it was. Chris Butler's control is not total and can be broken.

And thank you Rama who is a good friend and has been encouraging me to speak out as well. His bravery has been a huge inspiration. The most important thing I learned in meeting Rama was that I wasn't alone, in getting out, in how I felt. I spent a long time feeling like I was and that there was something wrong with me because I couldn't just accept the programming like everyone else. But thanks to Rama and others, I'm realising how lucky I am that I am who I am. Who Am I? I am me, thanks for asking, you didn't need to write a stupid book about it Chris. But thanks for trying to dismantle the sense of identity that is necessary for every human to develop in order to function, it was a good try, but you failed. F-. It probably didn't help your cause that for the most part I felt far smarter and far more educated than you on your best days with your best lectures, and for someone to realise that who at the time barely had an education, that really says something.

dharmabum - thank you and I'm sorry I made you cry. It was an emotional video to make, I tried so hard not to cry! but it's impossible when talking about the real impact Chris Butler's group has had on my life. I've managed to overcome most of the obstacles now, but every now and then his depravity hits my like a punch to the gut. When I think about the times my parents were barely able to feed us, and we only just had a roof over our heads, and they were STILL giving him money to live in his mansions eating imported mangoes... anger doesn't even begin to describe how I feel.

Thank you VoxVeritas, I agree, it has to stop. I'm hoping that by speaking out authorities will start to take notice and investigate the allegations, so that eventually things will fall apart. I'm going to keep speaking up until that day happens. I'm sorry for bringing back the PTSD. Unfortunately I think it's part of the reality of dealing with groups like that. I've had to deal with my own issues with it. I've had nightmare's, sleep paralysis, insomnia, anxiety and depression all come rushing back into my life since talking about all this stuff again, but it's necessary to reconnect the two halves of my life and make myself whole again. I think it's necessary for everyone to talk about it, in my experience it's where healing begins.

Vera - Agree with the Copyright stuff. I had done my own research into that issue prior to doing the videos, that's why I don't show them in my videos. I did read though that if you make a direct accusation, you can show a letter to support that accusation as it is used for the purposes of proof. And you can quote short passages too, as long as there is attribution and isn't a substantial portion of the content. Since they have claimed copyright, we can now do that and attribute it to them and they can't deny it because they claimed copyright. It's brilliant how well they helped prove their authenticity. They shot themselves in the foot trying to protect themselves, it's hilarious!

Oh that makes the story of the mangoes even better! All I can do is shake my head. I'd say I can't believe people put up with that, but of course I can believe it, I saw it, felt it, running around, trying to keep him happy in the hope that you might do well enough to be one of the special ones. And my how we scurried.

Rama - yes that video is frightening. I don't feel they were worse. Obviously Waco was an extreme ending, but one of the girls I knew growing up who was also from NZ was also in that nudist cult, before joining SOI. I saw pictures. It was creepy. But SOI isn't any less insidious or damaging. The way that I look at it, all the times our parents told us how awesome growing up the way we did is completely overshadowed by the pain and torment we have grown up with, and with their subsequent and total rejection because we spoke up about how we felt and wouldn't conform to the mantra of "the leader is good, the leader is great, we surrender our will, as of this date". No-one should get rejected because they're in pain, especially not from their so-called family. That's not what family does. If you're hurting, family are supposed to sweep in and hold you in their arms and comfort you. We both know what we lost, what we never had. I don't have to explain that one to you. But Chris Butler won't get away with it, not while we have something to do with it. He has us to answer to now. He isn't a higher power, he's not above the laws of this planet. He'll get his.

AC4711 - I agree completely. It takes a "special" kind of parent to inflict that kind of cruelty without asking any questions.

I'm currently reeling for an abusive text from my brother for speaking out, calling me childish for "blaming my parents for what is wrong in my life". Pretty sure I didn't do that, but that's the little narrative they have written for themselves in order to not actually deal with what I have said in relation to Chris Butler and what he has created. My parents have cut me off because I am s***ting all over their happy memories by "reading things on the internet" and making them fit with my fantasies of my horrible childhood (they like to tell me I'm crazy because I said they are child abusers for almost driving me to anorexia and suicide, but heck, what would I know). So it might be a week before my next video while I take some time to just focus on the truly happy, simple and free life that I have carved out for myself.

take care all.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Date: July 20, 2015 08:02AM

Hi Eigenerherr- do not let your brother trouble you too much- consider the source of his ranting and railing against you for “speaking out”

What you are saying is the TRUTH.
It is OUR Truth!

In speaking out against, and in dealing with, your family & Butler, remember that your family and the cultists, are truly brainwashed in the most insidious way possible.

One of the first tenants/commands that Butler taught was complete blind obedience and surrender- that all of you needed him to make it.

Butler can only teach Fear.
And teaching fear will never work, not in any world, dimension or Universe.

You and Rama and the others who have stepped forward to speak up and let the world know about this cult, have our (and my) complete support, encouragement and acceptance, to continue to stand in your convictions and beliefs.
You understand, in the deepest part of your being, that these cultists as well as Butler, are so very deluded.
I applaud and am in awe, of your courage because I know the great sacrifices you and Rama have made, to help those who might be interested in this cult, stay far away. To be able to reach out to those already trapped in the cult who may want to rise above this miasma of confusion, doubt and loneliness that being around Butler creates, is an incredible undertaking.

If you substitute the word “cultists" for the word ‘addict” and understand that they worship Butler as if he were their "drug of choice", you will have a better understanding of how to deal with your loved ones.
It also explains how some family members can have an addiction and others not.
Addiction, is also generational.
And to the sane person. the person with out the addiction, the feelings of anger rage, grief and pain can be debilitating at times.
You and Rama and some of us here, have had to step away from our family in order to save ourselves.
And, at times, its been quite painful, but it had to be done.
Stay strong and continue healing. We are with you.

Eigenerherr, you were correct in your ability to realize that Butler was so totally off kilter. Long ago, my child, age 12, thought the same thing.
Out of the mouths of babes.....

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: July 20, 2015 11:21AM

What Vox is describing has been referred to as process addiction -- when a person or an activity triggers and suppprts fantasies and feelings of of self enhancement or self repair.

For some of us, alcohol, cocaine or heroin have this effect; for others, gambling, obsessive fixations on a person, or shopping sprees have this effect.

Some may claim that addiction to a guru is a positive addiction, because it is safer than addiction to a chemical or high risk activity such as gambling.

But, as seen from multiple first person testimonies on this thread, addiction to the persona of Chris Butler has had quite serious effects. Just as chemically addicted parents ignore or belittle the age appropriate needs of their children, devotees of Chris Butler have neglected their own children -- and worse yet, felt virtuous in doing so -- for to them, this was not neglect at all, but service to God on earth - Butler.

By contrast there are times when even a person desperately addicted to a chemical will feel shame and fear about how their children are suffering.

Ullman and Paul, two psychoanalysts who have studied the self psychology of addiction, suggested this:


In some important ways, an Addiction Trigger Mechanism (ATM) mimics the functions of a self object in providing the self with an experience of relief
from dysphoric (painful feelings) states; however it is not a genuine self object.

(For)it (the addictive trigger mechanism) lacks the inherent capacity to add structure to and hence transform the self.

On the contrary, an ATM functions as an ersatz selfobject. As such it only mimics the structure building functions of genuine self objects. However, though lacking the power to transform the self, an ATM possesses the often deadly power to deform and in some cases, to destroy the self through
trapping the person in addictive ritual and habit.

Dissociative Anesthesia and the Transitional Selfobject in the Intersubjective Treatment of the Addictive Personality: Richard B Ullman and Harry Paul, page 112 of New Therapeutic Visons Progress in Self Psychology, The Analytic Press, 1992

An empathic parent is a genuine self object. A small child learns to master
fear by being able to see the parent, and trust the parent will remain available for refuge if the child gets scared when exploring an unfamiliar situation. Gradually, if all goes well, the child will internalize the parent and learn, bit by bit to hold, contain and manage anxiety for longer periods of time. Eventually, that child may grow so confident that he or she can venture to go on a bus to school, and feel secure within.

The parent has functioned as a genuine self object, enabling this child to build inner structure, inner safety and confidence.

By contrast a terrified child may not have a reliable parent and anxiety may remain unmanageable. This person may discover that alcohol or some other drug gives a magical feeling of sudden healing and wholeness. But this is temporary. The substance has only suppressed the feelings - the sufferer has not developed inner structure, and when the effect of the first drink wears off, the anxiety returns, made all the more painful because of the contrast with that feeling of relief.

This person will unconsciously associate the alcohol with a feeling of being parented, soothed, made whole -- and will long desperately to get another drink to regain that feeling of relief and security and confidence.

Result: enslavement to alcohol, and emotional development being arrested at the moment when the addiction took hold.

Addiction to a charismatic person such as a guru will also arrest character development in the same way.

And, sadly, just as many addicts and alcoholics lie to themselves and others about not being addicted, and even think themselves superior to those not addicted, persons addicted to a guru will easily feel superior to those not addicted.

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