Quote
Mike Jones
On the other hand you are also ignoring the possibility that you may be involved in a dangerous group." -Maybe I am just naive, but I don't see how chanting, eating prasadam, and giving lessons from the Bhagavad Gita is 'dangerous'. And if you think Siddhaswarupananda is 'dangerous' for teaching these practices that 'invoke pleasant feelings', I would personally have to disagree. Nothing makes me feel more alive than chanting or reading transcendental literature.

Chanting, eating prasadam, and reading the Bhagavad Gita are not dangerous in themselves. Billions of people find life and solace in their different religious practices. If people just stuck with the beautiful music, great food, and inspirational literature we wouldn’t need this forum. But the Butler group is much more than hanging out with guitars and Gita eating veggie comfort food.

On the other hand, comparing Butler to famous cult leaders like Marshall Applewhite (Heaven’s Gate), Jim Jones, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi (ISIS) is ridiculous. He doesn't have a history of suicidal or homocidal tendencies. Against these guys, Butler comes off as your neighborhood, mild mannered narcissist, but by no means harmless.

The damages investigated and reported regarding Butler have been extensively discussed on this forum from many perspectives. It's just not cool to denigrate an exer's truth and experiences just because you feel you have seen the light.

If you can keep to the religion and reject the culty parts, no one is at fault. It's just not enough to validate with guru, shastra, and how you "feel" is the Lord in your heart. You have to know what is cultish and what is not. Here is a great quick guide Rick Ross put together:WARNING SIGNS

For more in depth research and analysis you can read Cults Inside Out: How People Get In and Can Get Out
and/or
Cults in Our Midst: The Continuing Fight Against Their Hidden Menace
and/or
read THE WRITINGS OF DR ROBERT LIFTON



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2015 03:28AM by Vera City.

Mike Jones ~

The post you referenced was a good synopsis of the Butler narrative and background of the cult. That's why I re-posted it. It was retrieved after a data loss on the forum. It was by no means representative of all of the complaints against Butler and his group.

Here is something very important to understand. On this forum people do not always agree with each other but we have the freedom to speak out. I don't really care if Qi Gong is similar or disimilar to Kundalini. That's not the point.

But, you are free to come on and have a discussion within the rules of the forum. In Butler's cult, you can not have this discussion. It is considered blasphemy. That's the difference.

Are you aware that people who have spoken out against Butler have recieved death threats, have been harrassed on and off line, have lost rights to see their children?

Where is your proof that Butler is a man worthy of your life blood and is beyond reproach?

If you look at the real history and not the bullshit narrative fed to you by his "senior diciples", you will find that he was the one who declared himself Jagad Guru. He wrote his own interview in the Haribol Special. He wrote the questions and the answers himself. His Jagad Guru Speaks shows were all scripted and his followers just went along with it blindly.

I agree with you that taking on a guru is a very serious matter and one that you should not take lightly. With Butler, it is absolute. This is a huge red flag.

Many people go to Butler looking for absolutes. Absolute good, absolute perfection, absolute truth, absolute bliss, absolute lack of responsibility for your own life, absolute laziness. Opportunists go to Butler for advancement and profit. Others are attracted to the sensuality of the religion. And others are born into it. They are all suseptible to undue influence.

This forum is about what really happens to people in this cult. Not everyone has the same experiences or damages, but we all agree that one should proceed with extreme caution.

Apologists come on this forum wanting to discuss philosophy. But that is irrelevant. What is relevant are behaviors. How have Butler's behaviors affected people? How have followers behaviors affected others?

There is a formidable difference between Butler's public teachings and private teachings and practices. That is enough for concern.

Quote
Cathleen A. Mann PhD in forward to Rick Alan Ross's book "Cults Inside Out: How People Get In and Can Get Out"

"We can all be students, academics, and adventurous seekers of the "truth"and overcome adversity. But as seekers we must recognize that some organizations are harbingers of danger. Finding the truth is a process that is ideally transparent, engageing, and respectful of each person's unique human spirit."

corboy Wrote:

Quote

-------------------------------------------------------
> Vera City wrote:
>

Quote

If you are a new person in love with the
> high you get from the incense, music, chanting,
> and good vibes, you won't be told what really lies
> ahead.

>
>
> It is time for us to question if the bliss we feel
> in a group is a bliss
> that has been generated via exploitation of other
> devotees -- as described above.
>
> We are learning to purchase fair trade coffee and
> other commodities.
>
> We must learn to ask if the bliss we feel is from
> clean, non abusive
> sources.
>
> Bliss doesn't prove anything -- it is a pleasure
> perception that is felt when some stimulus, social
> or chemical or both, triggers certain neurological
pathways in the central nervous system.

I love incense :) I've been burning it for most of my life. Music has also been a part of my existence since I can remember. I love chanting, and have since before I met any of Siddhaswarupananda's students. Many times our chanting does not sound very good musically, but is still wonderful to hear.

I feel no sense of abuse from the group I chant with, and there have been many times of very high feelings or bliss. Most of the time however, I am not chanting with a group but am by myself or just my partner. The bliss is still there, and sometimes even greater. This is a clean bliss, no drugs, no abuse of other people, just chanting Krishna's names, and it comes naturally.


Vera City Wrote:

Quote

>
> Where is your proof that Butler is a man worthy of
> your life blood and is beyond reproach?
>
>
>

My only proof is my personal experiences. I have met no other being who could answer all of the questions I've had about life/religion/yoga (and I've asked ALOT of questions). Granted, many of these answers have come from senior disciples, but who do they owe their wisdom to? Siddhaswarupananda. I can't explain how I've naturally moved towards a life of Yoga and renunciation of the world most people enjoy. Regular (mundane) things don't bring me joy anymore like they used to... I can honestly say that I do not feel like I can function in this world on a daily basis without practicing yoga. This is how I have felt for a number of years, and is not solely based on Siddhawarupananda's teachings, although his teachings do solidify my feelings and nature and allow me to go deeper than I have before.

I can look at the examples you've cited of supposed 'abuse', and I truly feel sorry that those individuals had to undergo whatever they did. But like you said, it is their karma. I know I won't gain any positive reactions here for saying that, but it is truly my understanding of our reality. It sounds harsh, but it is true. There are individuals who are suffering from disease or starving on this planet, but it is only because of their past actions that has lead them to be in that position. It sucks, but it is also temporary.

This is why there are different levels of teachings given by the spiritual master. Some are not ready to hear the truth because of where they are currently viewing the reality. Say someone's mother just dies of cancer, it would be considered cruel (although honest) to go up to them and say 'well that was just her karma, and yours as well'. Some people would be ready to hear that, and others would not and probably flip out and begin to call you all sorts of evil names because you are mean or 'have no heart'. So naturally, a teacher will hold back or conceal certain truths or teachings so that the student can handle it at the proper time.

The guru is like a hot knife, cutting out the imperfections of our false ego. It is not an easy process, not always pleasant, and sometimes outright painful. But what happens when we make it through? We surrender more to God's will, giving up our own and becoming more humbled by the whole process.

We are not to criticize Guru, once we have accepted him as such, as we can not comprehend his level of understanding or methods of teaching. To do such is very harmful for our spiritual life.

Siddhaswarupananda's whole purpose in being here is to take humans to the highest platform of self-realization and love for God. He did not come to become popular, or for people to simply like him as a nice guy. We are admittedly extremely stubborn here in the western world, thus why such a strict teacher became manifest. From my limited observations, it is easier for many peoples born in other, more pious countries to take on this process of self-surrender.

I cannot comment on all of the examples that have been cited above of the hard times for students/disciples. Each case is different, as each person involved has different degrees of karma to deal with in this lifetime. Just because one becomes a devotee of Krishna or surrenders to Siddhaswarupananda, does not mean their life will suddenly become easier, or that all miseries will be wiped away. We still live in the material world, on a planet where bad shit happens, even to good people. Our only hope is that we may neutralize our karma in this life so that the next will be one centered around God.

My final 'proof' is simply this. I have prayed to God most of my life, or been seeking the Truth of this reality in one form or another. This is where He has lead me at this time. My questions have been answered, and I feel peace in my heart. I chant Krishna's names and everything is better instantly. What else is there to do?

Namaste~

Mike Jones:

You seem to selfishly only care about your own subjective experience rather than the objective evidence that people are being hurt.

Essentially, you don't care about anyone else, as long as you feel good.

Not evidence of any sort of spiritual awareness rather more a teimony of self interet and smug ego gratification.

Your proof is based upon your subjective experience, which can easily be manipulated by a group through its mind manipulating practices.

Chanting can be a form of trance induction or self hypnosis.

The "bliss" you experience can be seen as the floating or trance state, which often becomes much like a drug induced state of euphoria. That is, people can trance out to "get high."

It is of course a subjective, which demontrates nothing objectively as fact. But many people enjoy and even crave the high much like drug users and can become addicted to the experience of trance induction induced through chanting, meditation, sensory overload and/or deprivation, whatever route the group uses to bring about the trance state.

The problem with this high acheived through self-hypnosis or trance is that while in this disassociated state people become highly suggestible and easily manipulated. Leaders can then use well worn techniques such as guideded imagery and suggest jsut about anything, whcih the people floating in hypnotic trance with subjectively feel is real.

This is how many destructive cults manipulate people to experience whatever they want and hook themm deeper into the group. Once hooked in this way members have the experience or "bliss" that will serve as an anchor and addiction tying them firmly to the group.

It's a slick trick used by a variety of gurus, swamis and self-help leaders to ply their trade and exploit people.

The documentary "Captive Minds" is an excellent film that illustrates exactly how hypnotic trance induction works in a number of settings.

See [www.youtube.com]

Also see [culteducation.com]

Psychologist Margaret Singer identifies various forms of manipulation used by groups such as guided imagery and indirect directives.

Also see [culteducation.com]

Singer says meditation can be bad in certain situations with negative side effects.

Using such subtrafuge and subtle methods of manipulation destructive cults can at times seem to be benign on the surface. People will say they are having a positive experience subjectively, not recognizing what is really going on.

You're right, I am very selfish. I wish I could have been there to console the individuals that were hurt and perhaps offer some assistance. But unfortunately that was not the case. All I can do now is offer my general perspective on the matter because I cannot know all the details of every event that has gone on in the past. I have to remain somewhat detached from these stories because everyone's viewpoint is different, and a different perspective may bring about a different story.

I can say for certain that the vast majority of individuals whom I've spoken to have had positive experiences and to my knowledge show no signs of being 'abused'. They are all competent, loving individuals whom have chosen to follow this path and continue to do so because they feel positive benefits. Some of these individuals are a few of the smartest most discerning people I've encountered in my day. They've more than done ample research into not only the philosophy and history, but have lived to experience it all first hand with very intimate contact with Siddhaswarupananda. To me this is proof.


As mentioned before it appears that there are many differing arguments on this board. I made statements to back up the philosophy and teachings part, but was then told by one individual that 'philosophies are irrelevant'. Another has said (paraphrasing here) that 'the teachings have been hijacked from an ancient practice'. Meaning the core teachings could still be valuable. But now, you are arguing that the actual teachings of mantra meditation and kirtan are simply a way to 'induce a trance' so that we become 'highly suggestible'. Since you are the moderator, I will provide a valid response to your suggestions.

This method of yoga has been used for hundreds (if not thousands) of years. Many have practiced this system for most of their life and continue to do so. The reason why? Because it brings one closer to God. Why else would an intelligent person continue if it did not foster positive changes in one's own consciousness. From the many I have had contact with, this has been the case. I personally notice results after chanting even by myself. I am more calm, less irritable, have a clearer mind, and am not reacting to my emotions. This is a yogic stage known as pratyahara and leading to Dharana and Dhyana. It is the pulling away of the senses from their objects so that one enters a more concentrated state of awareness with one's energy directed inward rather than outward. Rather than becoming more suggestible in this state, one is actually more discerning as they are less likely to take something in if it does not feel right. In this stage one is more aware of subtle energies and also 'good' and 'bad' vibes. All of this is achieved (to one degree or another, depending on the practitioner's ability to focus) simply by the chanting of the mantras. The longer one chants the greater the results one is likely to notice.

I can see that I am probably not likely to get anywhere on this forum. Most everyone has already had there mind set, and like I said earlier, the words I have written are primarily for anyone who happens to stumble upon this message board to receive a positive perspective. And like you all, I am not likely to change my mind without ample proof. Most of the 'proof' we are all presenting here is personal perspectives. You all just happen to have a group of personal perspectives gathered together in one place. Likewise, I have a group of personal perspectives gathered together in one place, but outside of the internet. And for now, I think I will stick with my positive group.

Mike Jones:

It's not about philosophy or beliefs, but rather the bad behavior of totalitarian leaders that have little if any meaningful accountability.

When a group has a troubled history of complains and lacks the checks and balances that provide accounability it's important to approach it with caution.

I’m glad the world is finally hearing about the kind of cultic mindset Tulsi Gabbard is into, through Mike Jones. Keep talking, Sir. I’m just not sure though if your master is pleased with the way you’re exposing the kind of thought reform, Mr. Butler’s presidential hopeful has got and tries so hard to hide from the public.

Her criticism of Obama’s Middle East policy and approach to Islamic radicalization has got nothing to do with sound policy and secular thinking, but tainted with above’s religious prejudices and spiritual delusions.

Her spin doctors keep crying religious persecution whenever the people of Hawaii, she is supposed to represent, who voted for her, thus, gave her political power, clamors for clarity: what does she carry to D.C., and who she really is loyal to?

No big deal, the Science of Identity is just like the Hare Krishnas. But what a sec, aren’t the Hare Krishnas one of the whackiest religious organizations out there? True, religious freedom is protected by our constitution, but voters have equal rights to at least know, to help make informed decision who they give power to and effectively represent them.

Just a reminder: Religions and politics don’t mix very well, the reason why in our constitution, there is the separation between the Church and the State.

So, to understand Tulsi better, just read through the mind of the above’s follower.

All of these thoughts are simply my own, based on my own observations. Others may have different observations as they've lived different lives.

Once again, I do not represent Siddhaswarupananda. I am not an initiated disciple, and would be considered a 'new student' if even that.

"Mike Jones" wrote:

Quote

I can look at the examples you've cited of supposed 'abuse', and I truly feel sorry that those individuals had to undergo whatever they did.

But like you said, it is their karma. I know I won't gain any positive reactions here for saying that, but it is truly my understanding of our reality.

It sounds harsh, but it is true.

There are individuals who are suffering from disease or starving on this planet, but it is only because of their past actions that has lead them to be in that position. It sucks, but it is also temporary.

Corboy: You may feel this is true, but feelings prove nothing.

Quote

I know I won't gain any positive reactions here for saying that, but it is truly my understanding of our reality.

What is important is for citizens to learn the actual 'harsh'-ness
generated by the Butlerite belief system.

And to ask whether they want to be represented in Congress by someone with such beliefs -- beliefs which MJ admits could be perceived as 'harsh'.

Quote

Say someone's mother just dies of cancer, it would be considered cruel (although honest) to go up to them and say 'well that was just her karma, and yours as well'. Some people would be ready to hear that, and others would not and probably flip out and begin to call you all sorts of evil names because you are mean or 'have no heart'.

Corboy: What if Mom died from a type of cancer directly tied to asbestos exposure in her workplace?

And the employer knew about asbestos related
cancers, yet despite having ample funds, failed to educate workers
about the hazard and supply them functioning safety equipment?

This issue has come up before Congress.

[www.google.com]

[www.instituteforlegalreform.com]

And been an issue in Hawaii

[www.google.com]

What if a candidate presents as 'having a heart' while covertly believing the above doctrine?

What if this elected official regards parents of disabled children,
persons disabled by work injuries, veterans on disability as having brought this on themselves due to misbehavor in their past lives?

The laws and Constitution of the United States of America presume that all persons, not just those with good karma have the same
inalienable rights to pursue happiness. And that all are equal under the law.

Citizens trust that a candidate 'has a heart' operates by these guidelines, not by 'it is their karma.'

If a person is a private citizen, beliefs are private.

But if this person is elected to public office and in a position
to vote on funds for social aid, citizens do have a right
to know whether that candidate has a basic respect for
persons who are suffering misfortune -- rather than
regarding them as getting their just desserts due to
misdeeds in a past life.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2015 10:31PM by corboy.

Haha, I'm imagining Siddhaswarup splitting the remaining hairs on his head, spitting out all the expletives known on Earth and Queen Wai Lana telling the karma bums to get out of his sight and run for their lives. I always knew one of these days, one of the big mouths in there will spew it out in the open. Secrecy is over rated, whacky people always expose themselves. Abhay Williams, you're fucked. Calling D.C.