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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: barabara ()
Date: May 25, 2006 04:47AM

Please excuse me if anyone finds this an offense, but is Jagad Guru, Butler, even still living?

Everyone keeps saying "was", "did", etc., etc., and there are no new writings, no new pictures, no new videos or recordings that I am aware of.

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: devadasi ()
Date: May 25, 2006 07:37AM

I was not going to post again but after reading initiates last post I will make one more.

As a former follower of Chris Butler I want to say initiates reporting is about as accurate as it gets.

I also want to reiterate that most of the people within Chris's group are actually very very 'good hearted' people with high ideals who really want/wanted to make this world a better place and live a moral and decent life. How much of that goodness was there before they met Siddha and how much was brought out due to the basic teachings of the Vaishnava religion and Siddhas influence cannot be judged by me. But one thing is for sure. On many points Siddha failed all of us as a religious leader. Maybe he sincerely thinks he is the world teacher he poses as, but in my opinion he himself failed to learn many basic simple things taught within the Vaishnava faith so he did not really act as an acharya (teacher by example). His own life and many deviations from the Vaishnava creed is testimony. How much he really helped anyone or hurt anyone is not for me to judge, that will be left to karma. But I sincerely wish him and all his people the best and hope one day Siddha just gets back to the plain, simple and honest teachings he started everything out with. That he gets back to the simplicity that attracted so many of us in the beginning. Simple living, high thinking and plain honesty was really what it was supposed to be all about.

Hare Krishna.

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: initiate ()
Date: May 25, 2006 10:06AM

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initiate
[b:32ad314f5d]THE EVOLUTION OF POLITICAL CONSCIOUNESS[/b:32ad314f5d]

Siddha’s initial involvement inpolitics evolved out of his interest in protecting the environment. He was interested in preserving beaches and maintaining public access for surfers. He didn’t want the Islands to become over run with tourism and developments. It was during the gas crisis of the 1970’s. He was inspired by E.F. Schumacher’s book “[u:32ad314f5d]Small Is Beautiful[/u:32ad314f5d]”. He quoted him for his book, “[u:32ad314f5d]False Identity Equals Bad Economy”. [/u:32ad314f5d]
(full text: [www.iskcon.net]
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“Misidentifying ourselves with the material body is the cause of all our present economic problems. E.F. Schumacher was the first modern economist to point out this fact. He has thus given the world an invaluable gift in the form of his book Small Is Beautiful:
[i:32ad314f5d]“I think Gandhi has given the answer: "There must be recognition of the existence of the soul apart from the body, and of its permanent nature, and this recognition must amount to a living faith; and, in the last resort, non-violence does not avail those who do not possess a living faith in the God of Love."

“As the world's resources of non renewable fuels-coal, oil and natural gas-are exceedingly unevenly distributed over the globe and undoubtedly limited in quantity, it is clear that their exploitation at an ever increasing rate is an act of violence against, nature which must almost inevitably lead to violence between men.”[/i:32ad314f5d]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Siddha was concerned about the effects of tourism, development, and pollution in the Hawaiian Islands and lectured a lot about it. Hawaii was considered a piece of the planet left over from another, more enlightened time and not of this age of darkness and ignorance, the Kali Yuga (according to Vedas).

Siddha created the third party called “[u:32ad314f5d]Independents for Godly Government[/u:32ad314f5d]” and got some of his followers to run for office. The party was peopled solely by Siddha’s Krishna devotees, period. Their platform was a mixture of right and left wing ideas. The candidates of Independents for Godly Government did extraordinarily well, considering it was a new party in a state where the Democratic machine was so strong. They got a good percentage of the votes and some of his students have remained in politics for years.

More than anything, the secrecy thing put people off. Hawaiians are a very tolerant and sentimental people who support their own. A lot of the candidates that ran were locally grown, born and bred, young, idealistic, and vibrant. Very appealing. Bill Penaroza, Kathy Hoshijo, Wayne Nishiki. (Gabbard, Reed came later). But the lies and subtrofuge did them in. They would have won a lot more seats if the media had not gotten wind of their afilliation to Krishna and published their Sanscrit names and connection to Chris Butler. Later, seeing the impossibility of an independent party ever gaining any power, the followers joined the Democratic Party (the winning team at the time) and then on to the Republican Party which favored their anti-abortion and anti-homosexual marriage stances.

If they had been transparent in the beginning and persistent with their message and service to the community, being open that Siddha (another local boy) was the founder of IGG and advisor, and had given up the propensity to put down others, this group could have been a powerful influence for the good. It was Siddha’s own paranoia and attachment to being a divine being and puppet master that failed his students. They could have stood behind freedom of religion, multiculturalism and tolerance for which Hawaii has a natural affinity.

I haven’t researched his followers voting records, but from articles I have gleaned, they were quite a team of environmentalists who may have had a good impact in this area. Organized crime was another area of interest. They made a lot of enemies here. I don’t know the impact, but Rick Reed, former assistant to City Prosecutor Chuck Marsland, went after Larry Mehau, thinking him to be the “Godfather” of organized crime in Hawaii. Siddha had his followers start newspapers prior to the campaigns which printed articles about crime and political corruption in Hawaii. Of course these papers were never in Siddha’s name, only in his student’s names, but he had full control over the content and direction. Mehau sued everyone (but Siddha who was the original author behind the allegations and because everything was in his followers names). I don’t know the outcome of the lawsuits or if crime was lessened by Siddha’s influence or not. I do know that he had his hand on his followers every move. He indeed was a “godfather” of sorts (probably still is), for good or for bad, I don’t have any facts. That’s up to the karma police.

The funny thing about Rick Reed is that he was this golden boy from the mainland that fell into Siddha’s group. He was well spoken and well bred. A cultural anomaly in a sea of ex-hippies and surfers. He was put in charge of the newspaper on Maui and made a media spokesperson and point man for a lot of projects. He had the smile. Siddha once told him jokingly that he was so good looking and charismatic that he could start his own cult and went on describing the steps and theology he could teach. It was a joke and all for fun. Instead, he was groomed for political office. Is Siddha simply a perceptive life coach or a Svengali? I can’t judge because I don’t know what Rick has done as a politician. I know that I gained a lot of life and job skills that otherwise would not have developed had I not let myself be a pawn in Siddha’s hands. I don’t regret the price I paid for that. I look at those years as a sort of internship that has paid off in time.

From Hawaiian reporter.com
[www.hawaiireporter.com]
“He’s Back – and at his Old Stomping Grounds
A former State Senator made an appearance at the state Legislature yesterday to lobby his former peers. Rick Reed, who represented Maui, Molokai and Lanai in the House of Representatives, stepped down to run for congress against U.S. Senator Daniel Inouye. He lost, but was running against Inouye when the scandal about Inouye's proclivity for reaching out and touching someone female, including his hairdresser, became national news. Reed was most recently living in Washington D.C. May 23, 2006.”
A few links about Rick Reed -
[archives.cjr.org]
[www.hawaiireporter.com]
[www.the-catbird-seat.net]

Wayne Nishiki was also a follower who completed a 22-year career as a respected Maui county councilman. I don’t know if he has been as independent of interest groups as he claims, being a Siddha follower. His two drunk driving convictions are actually a relief in that they are indicative of him falling away from Siddha, as drinking is strictly prohibited. He acknowledges his involvement in yoga and meditation and has a good record as an environmentalist.
[starbulletin.com]

Kathy Hoshijo was also a follower who was pushed into running for office. She hated the campaigns and lost. It impacted her yoga life style and young kids in a very negative way. She had a fake marriage to another follower so brochures could show a happy family. She enjoyed her cooking shows and status as a pure devotee within the group. She got free housekeeping, child care, nice houses, and people fawning over and pampering her. She was definitely a queen bee. She was listed as a co-owner of Down To Earth. Again, no paper trail to link Chris Butler. Now she is rumored to be banished from Siddha and has her own guru business. She is really Siddha’s truest follower emulating his footsteps exactly. She even stole some of his followers into her camp. Looks like all his grooming kind of backfired.
[starbulletin.com]
[www.oasistv.com]

Mike Gabbard was also a follower. His career is well documented. He came into the group (I think) in the 1980’s. He originally came to start a school with his wife. They were good and professional educators. The school was well run. I have only good memories of Mike and his lovely wife. I think he had the most successful family life of any of the devotees because it was established before he became involved with Siddha. He was a nice guy and perfect for politics. I don’t know what happened to the school.

The bottom line is if Siddha’s involvement in their lives is only a simple matter of religious freedom or the evil of undue influence? Are these the first politicians to vote the dictates of their religious beliefs or is there an insidious plot at work? Is this a McCarthy witch hunt that would deprive people of their freedom to hold their own beliefs or have his followers put the State of Hawaii in jeopardy? Are they crazed vegetarians or ordinary and flawed people? Have they changed Hawaiian politics or has politics changed them?

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: Janus ()
Date: May 25, 2006 12:18PM

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initiate
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devadasi
Srila Prabhupada was so unhappy that he chastised others for not being more humble around Siddha and he even blamed some for pushing Siddha out of Iskcon. It is all in the folio. There was no agenda to cover up the things that happened both good and bad. There was no conspiracy. Just a few loud mouthed 'want to be guru' neophyte devotees making bluffs about doing Siddha in. There was no real conspiracy. There was no agenda to make up things to discredit Siddha, he did that himself, he did enough on his own. There was no need to make up extra things.

Devadasi-

You can believe what you choose to believe and be an ISKCON apologist, but you were not there. I was there when the threats of violence were real. This was no joke! You weren’t at the Los Angeles temple after these guys cruelly harassed Siddha. At one point, he turned around, raised his Sanyassi stick and sarcastically yelled at them the famous Jim Morrison line, “I want the world and I want it now!” because that’s what the GBC wanted and were fighting over. What’s in the “folio” does not record what Bhaktivedanta’s thugs did! Do you honestly think they shared all of their activities!?

Guys with lawyers came over to Hawaii to try to confiscate cash, property and any businesses that could be earmarked for ISKCON. (Remember, ISKCON was a legal entity.) There was a lot of money and property at stake, especially when Down To Earth started making bucks! Siddha was smart not to have any legal affiliation or they would have succeeded. He had good reason to separate from that organization! I don’t blame him for wanting independence.

One ISKCON guy who chanted on large pearl japa beads and was married to a rich Japanese heiress had the chutzpah to come to a gathering on Kauai to check out the property, only to find a rented house in the jungle with muddy paths and no electricity! They were so worried about getting their silk robes all dirty! You seem to think that Bhaktivedanta was aware of everything that was going on in his organization. He wasn’t. Temple presidents had a lot of autonomy. I go way back to the “Monkey on a Stick” days! I KNEW the dope dealing temple prez in southern California! I am no apologist for Abay Charan either. Maybe ISKCON has cleaned up their act now since many of the “Soprano” mafia types were indicted, in jail, dead, or gone.

Perhaps in the end, Siddha became what he hated most when he was young. Now that all of the people from the old days are banished or gone, he doesn’t have to be reminded of this.

I think it may just be that when a devotee sees someone else being treated in a manner that they think unfair that they do not bother to size up the person being mistreated, they just defend the apparent underdog, especially when he is outnumbered.
I too go way back, my sister lived in the dope dealing temple and one of my friends was key in providing evidence that sent Kirtanananda to prison. I entered the movement long before she did and left before ever she joined, before Prabhupada died. I am neither an ISKCON apologist and although I have been key in preventing (up til now) it's hostile takeover by another "faction", I am neither an ISKCON apologist nor it's suporter "as it is." Abhay Charan is a different matter exclusivly due to my experiences attained through relationship with him. Those experiences were tangibly spiritual or I am psychotic. I would prefer to believe the former. I am sure you understand.
Hari bol

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: just-googling ()
Date: May 25, 2006 08:48PM

I am not much of a political man, but maybe guru is pro Iraq war so that America can get the crude, to make the gasoline, to drive the tractor, to grow the soybean, to make the tofu, to propel aircraft to transport the tofu from Idaho to Honolulu, to propel the motor vehicle to transport said tofu to guru's mansion, so guru can eat tofu (all in Krishna's service, of course)... so much for simple living!

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: initiate ()
Date: May 25, 2006 11:13PM

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devadasi
Initiate,
I am curious if you know what all the homophobia was about? Was there something hidden there? Also were you there when all the germ phobias started and everyone had to wear a germ mask while in his house or close association.
I was and even some of his top devotees hated the idea and thought it ridiculous, they didn't come out and say it but I could tell by their behavior they thought it was way overboard, all the germ paranoia.

Actually I remember clearly when the new policy for wearing germ masks first came about. I was in a room with 4 or 5 initiated disciples. When we were told about the germ mask policy one of Siddha’s biggest disciples said blatantly, 'I am not going to wear a mask!" He then just walked out. Later he abjectly gave in and wore one along with everyone else. Siddha had a way of getting anything he wanted from his followers.


Why Siddha is so homophobic and germ phobic are probably just extensions of his misanthropic personality.

I have no doubt that his followers joined the Republican bandwagon against gay marriage to promote their political careers and to parrot Siddha’s directives. We were all such good parrots. There was not so much of an emphasis on homosexuality in the beginnings of the group. Any straw man he could develop and knock down to emphasize a point would be used. He was adept at reducing everything to caricature. I do remember that he detested effeminate men. He described one rare follower like that as “the kind of guy you just want to punch in the face.” (He did not last long in the group.)

I was aware that Homosexuality was not considered proper behavior for human beings in either the Krishna cult or Siddha’s cult. Siddha wrote a pamphlet on the subject. (see: [www.iskcon.net])
[b:dd2fe1f8ee]He has an interesting and unintentionally humorous view on the subject.[/b:dd2fe1f8ee] It is theologically aligned with Vaishnavism. This is an excerpt:

[i:dd2fe1f8ee]“JAGAD GURU: Exactly. You are neither the mind nor the gross body. Both the gross body (male and female body) and the subtle body (mind and desires) are material coverings that you have on. Just because you are in a male body doesn't mean that you are male, similarly just because you are covered by the desire to enjoy as a female doesn't make you a female. You are not the gross physical body nor are you the mind and desires. You are the soul or person covered by these two bodies. You are not the gross or subtle body. You are the living entity situated within these bodies. The identity crisis exists for a person who is not aware of this fact.
QUESTION: So homosexuals who say they feel like women trapped in men's bodies are mistakenly identifying themselves as the mind and desires?
JAGAD GURU: Yes. Individuals in men's bodies but who want to enjoy as women should appreciate the fact that they are not women trapped in men's bodies, rather they are living entities covered up by the desire to enjoy as women, but their "female" desire is encased in a male body.” [/i:dd2fe1f8ee]
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I saw no evidence of homosexual behavior in Siddha or in his close male followers. All I know is that very early on Siddha had a follower who loved him dearly. He helped to open and manage the very first health food store. He was a very handsome man that all the young “brahmacharinis” (single girls) wanted to marry, but he was devoted to Siddha. He made homosexual advances towards Siddha that were aggressively rejected. The guy left the group after embezzling a lot of money. The store and/or bank account was probably in his name since Sadhus are not supposed to own anything. So he got away with it. This incident freaked Siddha out. I am sure it shaped future operating procedures.

Years later, a curious phenomenon happened. There seemed to be an epidemic of women becoming gay. I know of at least four women who left their husbands and took up with other women. (There was a lot of straight sex going around too). These broken marriages and affairs were really upsetting to the community. All of these women had children. Siddha was genuinely concerned, but never saw a connection with the unrealistic culture he was encouraging. Someone on this forum shared with me, (I had also heard this) that one of these women, when blasted by Siddha about homosexuality, responded by saying that everyone else is having illicit sex, what’s wrong with her being gay!?! And maybe their husbands, like George Castanza (Seinfeld), drove women to become lesbians because they were too busy “serving” Siddha and/or having affairs with other women. The lifestyle was fatiguing, stressful and alienating. Many families were very poor or on welfare. I’m surprised anyone stayed together. The children suffered the most (from the broken marriages). I often wonder how they have fared and would like to hear their stories.

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: initiate ()
Date: May 26, 2006 01:15AM

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just-googling
I am not much of a political man, but maybe guru is pro Iraq war so that America can get the crude, to make the gasoline, to drive the tractor, to grow the soybean, to make the tofu, to propel aircraft to transport the tofu from Idaho to Honolulu, to propel the motor vehicle to transport said tofu to guru's mansion, so guru can eat tofu (all in Krishna's service, of course)... so much for simple living!

LOL :lol: Don't forget that the soybeans are grown on his organic farm with free labor from "interns" who come to learn mantra meditation and bhakti yoga! Check out the noni farm on the Big Island. Oh, and they get the priviledge of living in cabins or their own tents without using electricity! whooo hooo!

[attrainternships.ncat.org]

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: kali ()
Date: May 26, 2006 06:19AM

If you check out reports some visitors write after visiting this farm you can easily observe that trolling was in the scenario. These could be found on woofhawaii but not certain they are still on. People from the "farm" went so far as to offer pick-ups at airport.
Still, no one here has provided any information on the centers for kids in the Phillipines.

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: barabara ()
Date: May 26, 2006 06:46AM

Didn't Kathy Hoshijo become Takahani, or Katyayani?


When was the last time anyone here actually saw Chris Butler in the flesh?
Has anyone even spoken to him recently, perhaps on the phone?

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: gulag ()
Date: May 26, 2006 06:49AM

www.wwoofhawaii.org
Folks search for work exchange organic farms, etc. I believe one may inquire for such for farms national and international. A good method to hook young adventurers into humping the fields for no pay. Assuming one has such motives. One visitor reported unfavorably on this experience back to the web site, saying she didn't think it was what Krishna had in mind.
What with all the enterprise, business and money-making going on here how does it jive with non-material life and where does all the money go? Do they run programs for the poor or homeless or a hospice for aids sufferers?

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